Black Belt/Sash/Rank at a young age...

[K-man]

You didn't understand the context.

You are right. Perhaps you could explain it to me. Just which 90% of black belts are a joke and where does a young child fit into your scenario?

 

[MJS]

people don't actually want to hear this from an outside source. generally they will only accept this from a very limited number of people: their teacher or other classmates. But they will not accept it from others.

You're right. Sad thing is, I'd be willing to bet that in some cases, a teacher or classmate will refrain from saying it, out of fear of losing a student, upsetting someone, causing someone to leave, etc. How those fragile folks go through life is beyond me. Do they get pissed at their boss and quit their real life job, if their boss corrects them? Pretty sad IMO, if they do.

 

[generalneon]

Yet earlier, you said that everyone was entitled to their opinion, no? I'm sorry that you're taking offense to the opinions of others. Elitists..lol...no, I don't consider myself above and beyond anyone. I'm just stating a) my opinion and b) the reality of what we see in many schools today, which is a bunch of young kids wearing black belts and watered down arts.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do respect it. I simply have an opposing opinion, and I feel very strongly about it. With my daughter getting ready for her 2nd dan test coming up next month, it simply makes me feel like her accomplishments are being disrespected due to her young age, and I took offense to it. Not hatin', just debatin'.

Hey, I give props to your daughter. At least she's doing something productive, rather than sitting on the couch, watching tv and playing video games. However, I still can't grasp the idea of giving someone young, a BB, much less a 2nd dan. So, you're telling me, that at 10yrs old, she can not only perform a technique or kata, but she also has a working knowledge of the ins and outs of said tech. and kata? She understands and can give 1-2 applications for each move in a kata, she can understand how a tech. works, can adapt that tech under changing circumstances, can teach it, etc.?

Absolutely. That was my point initially. Watching her teach a lower belt a new form, she explains how the moves break down, what attacks you dodge, and the counters and attacks. She describes the action as she breaks down each move, because that was what she learned from her instructor, how he describes the attacker's actions during the form. It just goes back to her having a top-notch teacher.

See above and past posts from me. I mentioned 16 at least, preferably 18, before someone gets a BB. So, going on what you feel, you'd be perfectly fine with someone being a 5th dan under the age of 21? No offense, but this is the attitude that I was talking about earlier...where the teacher is too afraid to say no, and the parents and child thinks that because they've trained for the average time, they should and/or better be awarded the belt. Sorry, I call BS on that. Furthermore, just because someone is past the age barrier, as you call it, still doesn't guarantee they'll 'get it'. The odds would probably be a bit higher...I mean, someone who's 18, 20, 21, is probably going to grasp something a bit better than a 10yr old.

I do think that you're underestimating today's kids. They are far more worldly, and far brighter, than I was at that age. They can grasp the ins and outs far faster than a generation ago, and meet or exceed expectations placed upon previous generations. Then again, they could fall flat on their face, as well. It depends on the student. If they work hard, listen, learn, and display what they have learned to meet or exceed requirements, then they have earned it. It's not being awarded, it's being earned. Once again, it goes back to how well they have been trained. Teachers today have a greater wealth of knowledge, and better teaching tools, than in the past. They build off of the past teachings, put a new spin or new technology into it, and young students can grasp it easier, while staying true to the art. A 5th dan at an age before they can rent a car? Have they passed every test, put in the training, and displayed their depth of knowledge? Yes? Done. If they display the working knowledge of their art, and have put in the time at the school, then their age shouldn't be a hinderence.

On another note...what I find interesting is you look at an art like BJJ, where it's taken people 10yrs to gain a BB, and you don't see all the crying and moaning about rank. The place where I train now, is by far, the most traditional, old school dojo's that I've ever trained at. Yet despite kids at that school having BB's, they're all considered junior black belts. They'll still have to test and perform to the adult standards when they're old enough.

That's your choice of art, and I respect that. But what if the student can meet or exceed the adult testing standards at a younger age? Why should they be penalized for not having scurried around the surface of the planet for long enough? Do the adult black belts look down at these students, thinking that they aren't a "real" black belt yet?

I agree that they're all about SD, fighting, etc. Who said anything about exotic moves or Hollywood stunt work??

Just trying to make a point about why she trains.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree with you. I didn't actually say what drop bear quoted me as saying.

Yeah, my response was really to the part about judging between arts in general. Apologies; I should have spelled that out or left the part where your name was mentioned.

What I actually said that a belt is only a measure of progress within a particular style. However, that said, I would expect a blackbelt of any style to be able to demonstrate their skill in an outside SD situation and I can't see an eight year old black belt doing that.
:asian:

Not all martial arts are geared towards outside SD. For example, would you say that about an eighty year old who just got her black sash at the tai chi class she took at the senior center?

How about a Haidong gumdo black belt or an iaido or kendo shodan?

Sure, the principles that are taught in those arts are applicable in SD, but kendo, iaido, and tai chi classes taught in senior centers do not contain self defense specific training. Same goes for Haidong Gumdo.

And while one of my kendo students (a child, ironically) did successfully apply kendo principles to dealing with a schoolyard bully, the purpose of kendo is not self defence. It is not even related to fighting.

Such an expectation on your part, at least worded as broadly as "all" is unrealistic.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

"At the end of the day a black belt is not transferable. It represents a level within any particular organisation".

and

"... a belt is only a measure of progress within a particular style."

Agree 100%. I would even go so far as to say that even within a style, it will differ from school to school, but overall, I think this statement of yours is on the money.

 

[wingchun100]

MJS is right in that a teacher should be honest if something a student does "sucks," but I have found that most people won't respond well if you tell them ONLY something negative. However, add a positive in there and they are all right. I think it is because people get discourage and think to themselves, "Geez I am paying all this money and spending all this time here, and the teacher didn't have anything good to say!" So if my sifu were to say to someone "your punch isn't powerful yet but your stance is good," they wouldn't be as discouraged as if he had only criticized their punch.

 

[ballen0351]

Man, oh man.

I'm sorry, but I'm getting a little peeved. To look at these comments, feeling that the elitists of martial arts are poo-pooing the accomplishments of my daughter is quite frustrating.

Nobodys poo-pooing your daughter. We are poo-pooing the practice of saying a 10 year old is the same level as a 28 yr old. It just isn't possible.

She has been training for nearly six years, taking at least three classes every week, usually ends up five or six per, has absorbed, processed, and enacted almost every scrap of advice towards her training, and proven her skills and knowledge at every opportunity. The tests she takes do not have any difference for any age group, you do what you gotta do to pass. She has run out of room for the trophies she has earned at tournaments, and has them lying about in her room. She helps teach the lower belts on forms and techniques, reiterating lessons that she learned from past years. Yet, somehow, due to her young age, her ranking is deemed a joke?

When she competes does she compete against adults or is it by age groups? Im sorry but if you walked into any other type of business say you contacted a mechanics shop to get an oil change and a 10 year old walksout with a wrench to change you oil you would say "Is this a joke?" My son is 8 he can change oil in a car Ive showed him hes helped me and if I asked Im sure he could do it by himself. BUT that's not acceptable yet you think a 10 year old teaching self defense is acceptable? Sorry but that screams belt factory. Now it doesn't mean your daughter isn't working hard and learning but again seeing a 2nd dan 10 year old just isn't acceptable in most martial arts schools.

Is there some magical age at which a martial artist "gets it"? What kind of actions or behavior needs to be displayed to signify that one "gets it"? If someone younger than your mystical time allotment displays that they "get it", why is that person not given the proper ranking that they clearly earned? Why do students past the age barrier that pass any test are assumed that they "get it"?

If you believe age doesn't matter then why do we have age limits for driving a car? My son is 8 and again he knows how to drive a car he drives my old jeeps all over our property. According to you if he can reach the pedals and see out the windshield he should get a license. There are developmental stages that need to be reached before someone is able to "get it." She is so young she doesn't even know what she doesn't get yet.

First and foremost, in the most simple form, martial arts are taught to defend yourself from an attack. Not to show off exotic moves, not to so Hollywood stunt work, to defend yourself.

So again your showing a lack of getting it. If these "exotic" moves are in your style then someone along the way deemed them important for self defense. If not and its just for show then you need to find a new art

No doubt, anyone untrained that comes up against my daughter is gonna get hurt. Someone much larger than her, she can hurt them and get away.

I Hope so

Anyone her size, and they would be getting that attacker up off the floor with a squeegee.

well I hope shes not getting into fights with other 10 year old girls since I cant think of any one else the size of a 10 year old girl but another 10 year old girl

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yet earlier, you said that everyone was entitled to their opinion, no? I'm sorry that you're taking offense to the opinions of others. Elitists..lol...no, I don't consider myself above and beyond anyone. I'm just stating a) my opinion and b) the reality of what we see in many schools today, which is a bunch of young kids wearing black belts and watered down arts.

Yes, but in stating that, you say "a five year old black belt is a joke. A 12yo 2nd or 3rd degree BB is also a joke."

Which is guaranteed to make a person who's child is a five year old with a black belt or a twelve year old with a second or third degree black belt defensive. In short, you draw the very response you bemoan by essentially insulting the students themselves.

I realize that your intent is to say that awarding a black belt to a five year old or a second/third degree black belt to twelve year old is a joke, but your actual statement calls the students themselves "jokes."

There are a lot of ways that you could state your opinion; 'I am strongly opposed to the awarding of black belts to children or degrees above first to tweens and young teens' or 'the awarding of black belts to children is a bad idea because ...' would do so very nicely.

Even the assertion that schools with children earning such belts are "handing out rank" is an assumption. It may be true in some or even many cases, but the statement implies the award earned by a child or young teen is automatically handed out. It may not be appropriate in your opinion to award such ranks to students in those age ranges, and there are certainly compelling arguments to support that view, but unless we're acquainted with a particular school, we really don't know that the rank was handed out (as opposed to being worked for).

You are also assuming in your statement that teachers are afraid to not give out rank. That may be true in some or even many cases, but there are instructors who are legitimate practitioners who truly believe that kids should be able to earn a black belt and who believe this for reasons that are unrelated to their school's commercial success.

In principle, I personally don't care. As a kendo instructor, we don't use belts anyway. In terms of teaching hapkido and self defence, I have no child students, but there are certain things in hapkido that I believe should wait for a student to be older. This is for physiological reasons and potential for injury, not due to any opinion of what children can or cannot understand.

 

[drop bear]

Remember what you said here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ash-Rank-at-a-young-age?p=1625227#post1625227

This implies that that MMA people can be DB's. Yet in this post you say the opposite. Like I said, every art has a few bad apples. It doesn't mean that the art as a whole is bad, because of a few DB's.

That was to make a point I pretty clearly labeled it.

What I was trying to say is there are always going to be harder people than you. And I imagine you don't expect them to be laughing at you.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In principle, I personally don't care. As a kendo instructor, we don't use belts anyway. In terms of teaching hapkido and self defence, I have no child students, but there are certain things in hapkido that I believe should wait for a student to be older. This is for physiological reasons and potential for injury, not due to any opinion of what children can or cannot understand.

I forgot to finish this thought. In principle, I don't care. In practice, any school owner knows that they are under some degree of scrutiny and that issuing black belts to children will rub some people the wrong way and may potentially cast their school in the light of being a McDojo. Those owners have to weigh the pros and cons and make their decision based on what they want for their school, as well as the environment in which their school exists.

Schools located in suburbia, particularly more affluent parts of suburbia, exist in a different environment than a school located in a city. Like it or not, if you have no students because you're teaching self defence and your customers either want or think you're offering an alternative to little league, then you failed to do your homework or appropriately define what you are doing.

I am a proponent of kids in the martial arts, though I do think that in expanding kids programs, there has been a deterioration of instructional integrity, though I see this as a separate (though related) issue from that of attaching black cloth to the waist of a five year old.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Funny you talk about style bashing, seeing that MMA is one of the biggest offenders of that.

If you're talking about discussions on this forum, I think the bashers tend to be the MMA wannabees and fanboys, not the actual practitioners. In general, I can't think of any of the MMA fighters that I train with who are in the habit of bashing other styles.

 

[MJS]

Originally Posted by MJS Yet earlier, you said that everyone was entitled to their opinion, no? I'm sorry that you're taking offense to the opinions of others. Elitists..lol...no, I don't consider myself above and beyond anyone. I'm just stating a) my opinion and b) the reality of what we see in many schools today, which is a bunch of young kids wearing black belts and watered down arts.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do respect it. I simply have an opposing opinion, and I feel very strongly about it. With my daughter getting ready for her 2nd dan test coming up next month, it simply makes me feel like her accomplishments are being disrespected due to her young age, and I took offense to it. Not hatin', just debatin'.

I understand. We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this, but hopefully her test is a success next month.

Hey, I give props to your daughter. At least she's doing something productive, rather than sitting on the couch, watching tv and playing video games. However, I still can't grasp the idea of giving someone young, a BB, much less a 2nd dan. So, you're telling me, that at 10yrs old, she can not only perform a technique or kata, but she also has a working knowledge of the ins and outs of said tech. and kata? She understands and can give 1-2 applications for each move in a kata, she can understand how a tech. works, can adapt that tech under changing circumstances, can teach it, etc.?



Absolutely. That was my point initially. Watching her teach a lower belt a new form, she explains how the moves break down, what attacks you dodge, and the counters and attacks. She describes the action as she breaks down each move, because that was what she learned from her instructor, how he describes the attacker's actions during the form. It just goes back to her having a top-notch teacher.

So, in your opinion, as long as all the standards are met, you see nothing wrong with the age factor? I'm probably going to have to go with what Daniel said in his reply, but let me ask you this. If we go with your theory, then it's very possible for someone to reach a high level black belt, at a young age. If you walked into a school and saw someone who was 20yrs old, but was a 7th or 8th dan, would that be ok with you?

See above and past posts from me. I mentioned 16 at least, preferably 18, before someone gets a BB. So, going on what you feel, you'd be perfectly fine with someone being a 5th dan under the age of 21? No offense, but this is the attitude that I was talking about earlier...where the teacher is too afraid to say no, and the parents and child thinks that because they've trained for the average time, they should and/or better be awarded the belt. Sorry, I call BS on that. Furthermore, just because someone is past the age barrier, as you call it, still doesn't guarantee they'll 'get it'. The odds would probably be a bit higher...I mean, someone who's 18, 20, 21, is probably going to grasp something a bit better than a 10yr old.



I do think that you're underestimating today's kids. They are far more worldly, and far brighter, than I was at that age. They can grasp the ins and outs far faster than a generation ago, and meet or exceed expectations placed upon previous generations. Then again, they could fall flat on their face, as well. It depends on the student. If they work hard, listen, learn, and display what they have learned to meet or exceed requirements, then they have earned it. It's not being awarded, it's being earned. Once again, it goes back to how well they have been trained. Teachers today have a greater wealth of knowledge, and better teaching tools, than in the past. They build off of the past teachings, put a new spin or new technology into it, and young students can grasp it easier, while staying true to the art. A 5th dan at an age before they can rent a car? Have they passed every test, put in the training, and displayed their depth of knowledge? Yes? Done. If they display the working knowledge of their art, and have put in the time at the school, then their age shouldn't be a hinderence.

Then as Daniel said, why have an age restriction for driving? Voting? Drinking? Working? I think you may have just answered my question that I asked above this, but you said a 5th dan before they rent a car. So, am I safe to assume that you would be cool with someone in their early to mid 20's, being a 7th, 8th, 9th dan?

On another note...what I find interesting is you look at an art like BJJ, where it's taken people 10yrs to gain a BB, and you don't see all the crying and moaning about rank. The place where I train now, is by far, the most traditional, old school dojo's that I've ever trained at. Yet despite kids at that school having BB's, they're all considered junior black belts. They'll still have to test and perform to the adult standards when they're old enough.



That's your choice of art, and I respect that. But what if the student can meet or exceed the adult testing standards at a younger age? Why should they be penalized for not having scurried around the surface of the planet for long enough? Do the adult black belts look down at these students, thinking that they aren't a "real" black belt yet?

My point was simply that in that art, you don't see people, of any age, worrying about rank. Everyone trains, and they earn the rank on the standards the art has. What is the rush? Does it really matter if someone who starts training at 5, gets a BB by the time they're 10 or are they capable of waiting until they're 16?

I agree that they're all about SD, fighting, etc. Who said anything about exotic moves or Hollywood stunt work??



Just trying to make a point about why she trains.

Ok.

 

[MJS]

MJS is right in that a teacher should be honest if something a student does "sucks," but I have found that most people won't respond well if you tell them ONLY something negative. However, add a positive in there and they are all right. I think it is because people get discourage and think to themselves, "Geez I am paying all this money and spending all this time here, and the teacher didn't have anything good to say!" So if my sifu were to say to someone "your punch isn't powerful yet but your stance is good," they wouldn't be as discouraged as if he had only criticized their punch.

Of course, and my apologies for not stating that. There certainly is nothing wrong with pointing out the good things. My teacher does that all the time. One class, we were doing some floor drills, going up and down the dojo, doing a series of blocks, strikes, etc. He stopped me and made a correction with the way I was executing the block/punch. I saw his approval when I made the correction.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Then as Daniel said, why have an age restriction for driving? Voting? Drinking? Working? I think you may have just answered my question that I asked above this, but you said a 5th dan before they rent a car. So, am I safe to assume that you would be cool with someone in their early to mid 20's, being a 7th, 8th, 9th dan?

Thank you for the credit, but that was Ballen's post.

 

[MJS]

Yes, but in stating that, you say "a five year old black belt is a joke. A 12yo 2nd or 3rd degree BB is also a joke."

Which is guaranteed to make a person who's child is a five year old with a black belt or a twelve year old with a second or third degree black belt defensive. In short, you draw the very response you bemoan by essentially insulting the students themselves.

I realize that your intent is to say that awarding a black belt to a five year old or a second/third degree black belt to twelve year old is a joke, but your actual statement calls the students themselves "jokes."

There are a lot of ways that you could state your opinion; 'I am strongly opposed to the awarding of black belts to children or degrees above first to tweens and young teens' or 'the awarding of black belts to children is a bad idea because ...' would do so very nicely.

Even the assertion that schools with children earning such belts are "handing out rank" is an assumption. It may be true in some or even many cases, but the statement implies the award earned by a child or young teen is automatically handed out. It may not be appropriate in your opinion to award such ranks to students in those age ranges, and there are certainly compelling arguments to support that view, but unless we're acquainted with a particular school, we really don't know that the rank was handed out (as opposed to being worked for).

You are also assuming in your statement that teachers are afraid to not give out rank. That may be true in some or even many cases, but there are instructors who are legitimate practitioners who truly believe that kids should be able to earn a black belt and who believe this for reasons that are unrelated to their school's commercial success.

In principle, I personally don't care. As a kendo instructor, we don't use belts anyway. In terms of teaching hapkido and self defence, I have no child students, but there are certain things in hapkido that I believe should wait for a student to be older. This is for physiological reasons and potential for injury, not due to any opinion of what children can or cannot understand.

Points taken Dan, but yes, I do feel that it's a joke. My wording could probably have been better. Let me ask you this though...had I used your 2nd, more friendly option of voicing my disapproval of 5yr old BBs, do you think that the replies would be that much different? If I say, "I disagree with giving a 5yr old a BB, because IMO, they're way too young, and they just do not have the ability to fully grasp, like someone who's older, what the belt is really all about, as well as having the ability to have a much more in depth understanding of the material." Do you think that someone still won't take offense to that? Maybe not like as if I said, "All 5yr old BBs are a joke!!" but given the fact that I'm still talking about their child, the fact that I disapprove, despite how much training they do per week, their understanding, etc, I'd still wager a guess feathers would be ruffled.

Regarding the handing out rank comment. Do you feel that what I said holds any truth, when I made the comment that some schools may cater to the child, out of fear of losing a student? During my time teaching, I've had more than 1 parent approach me and ask why Joey is getting promoted, but their child isn't, especially since they both started at the same time. Well ma'am, joey shows up 4-5 times a week, takes a private a month, clearly trains at home, and your child, well...I am lucky to see him twice a week, he fools around in class, doesn't seem like he trains at home...but you want me to promote him anyways? They're either going to take the hint or they're going to get pissed off and leave. I've seen is many times.

As far as teachers being afraid...well, I pretty much covered that in the above reply as well. Hey, I understand that people need to make a living, but I'd rather not devalue my school or morals because someone is upset and leaves. IMO, I don't see anything wrong with a teacher being upfront with potential students, and making it clear from day 1, and outlining everything from attendance, to testing.

As far as the belts...well, I could take 'em or leave 'em. When we have Arnis camps/seminars, nobody wears their belts. The upper belts always try to mix in with the lower ranks. It usually doesn't take much to figure out, simply by watching, who the higher belts are. It's like I always say, impress me with your skill and knowledge, not the number of stripes on your belt.

 

[MJS]

Thank you for the credit, but that was Ballen's post.

Yeah, my bad. I realized that too late.

 

[MJS]

If you're talking about discussions on this forum, I think the bashers tend to be the MMA wannabees and fanboys, not the actual practitioners. In general, I can't think of any of the MMA fighters that I train with who are in the habit of bashing other styles.

Sure, you are correct. It's one of those "1 bad apple ruins the bunch" scenarios. The fanboys and wannabees ruin the good with their actions. To the outsider looking in, it makes all MMAists look bad.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

generalneon[/B];1625269]
She has been training for nearly six years, taking at least three classes every week, usually ends up five or six per, has absorbed, processed, and enacted almost every scrap of advice towards her training, and proven her skills and knowledge at every opportunity. The tests she takes do not have any difference for any age group, you do what you gotta do to pass. She has run out of room for the trophies she has earned at tournaments, and has them lying about in her room. She helps teach the lower belts on forms and techniques, reiterating lessons that she learned from past years. Yet, somehow, due to her young age, her ranking is deemed a joke?

When she competes does she compete against adults or is it by age groups? Im sorry but if you walked into any other type of business say you contacted a mechanics shop to get an oil change and a 10 year old walksout with a wrench to change you oil you would say "Is this a joke?" My son is 8 he can change oil in a car Ive showed him hes helped me and if I asked Im sure he could do it by himself. BUT that's not acceptable yet you think a 10 year old teaching self defense is acceptable? Sorry but that screams belt factory. Now it doesn't mean your daughter isn't working hard and learning but again seeing a 2nd dan 10 year old just isn't acceptable in most martial arts schools.

If Generalneon means that his daughter being a good senior to her juniors, then I don't see the problem. Kids who are at the head of their class helping kids who are not is not uncommon in school. The idea of students being a 'teacher's assistant' is also not unheard of in grade school.

If Generalneon means that his daughter is acting in the role of an instructor who is under the supervision of a senior instructor, then the school is engaging in a practice that I do not endorse.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Unfortunately it breaks down to :
If your paying and your child is learning and getting rank then you fell your getting your monies worth and you have bragging rights.
If your child is in a school where children are not allowed higher ranks your still have them same bragging rights and you realize that your child will not gain those ranks until a certain age.
The perception of what a blackbelt means in the arts is so messed up that it only means something within your on school until you prove your worth in an actual situation or prove your worth to other martial arts senior instructors

 

[ballen0351]

#1 If Generalneon means that his daughter being a good senior to her juniors, then I don't see the problem. Kids who are at the head of their class helping kids who are not is not uncommon in school. The idea of students being a 'teacher's assistant' is also not unheard of in grade school.

#2 If Generalneon means that his daughter is acting in the role of an instructor who is under the supervision of a senior instructor, then the school is engaging in a practice that I do not endorse.

Ill wait for his reply for specifics but If as he says they have no difference between a junior black belt and an adult black belt then in theory it should be option 2 since in most schools a black belt should be of the skill lvl to teach a basic class. If its option one then there is a difference between an adult rank and a junior rank even if they don't admit it