BJJ vs TKD...yep, let's kick the dead horse

[Tez3]

This is our promotion's full professional rules.

Fouls:
Butting with the head
Eye gouging of any kind
Biting
Hair pulling
Fish hooking
Groin attacks of any kind
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent
Small joint manipulation
Striking to the spine or back of the head
Striking downward using the point of the elbow
Throat strikes of any kind including without limitation grabbing the trachea
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
Grabbing the clavicle
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
Stomping a grounded opponent
Kicking to the kidney with the heel
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area
Holding the shorts or gloves of opponent
Spitting at an opponent
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent
Holding the ropes or the fence
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area
Attacking an opponent on or during the break
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded at the end of the round
Flagrently disregarding instructions of the referee
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent intentionally or consistantly dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury
Interference by the corner


3 x 5 minute rounds with a mintue between for rest.

We have all agreed weight categories, the rest is probably up for negociation lol!

 

[14 Kempo]

I usually stay out of this type of 'discussion', but for some reason I decide now to chime in. Fighting effectively is a matter of distance. Here is a partial list beginning at the top with the furthest distance, then growing closer. Only one art is mentioned at each level, there are many, but here goes ...

Weapons: Bombs, Guns, Poles, Sticks, Knives

Kicking Arts, such as TKD, etc.
Hand Arts, such as Kempo, etc.
Muay Thai, etc.
Jiu Jitsu, etc.
Judo, etc.
BJJ, etc.

... each art has its positives and negatives and yes, some arts cross boundaries. Learn as much as you can, for as long as you can. It is a never ending journey. If a person chooses to believe that they study the one and only art that can handle every possible situation, then so be it, let them think it. If anybody is THAT GOOD at any given art, they will be able to handle most situations that will be encountered in the real world, but nobody will be able to handle every situation.

This, the comparison of two or more arts, has been argued for years and will probably be argued long after we are all gone.

Just my two cents ... carry on!

 

[Xue Sheng]

:lfao:


What ruling organisations? We have absolutely none at all!!

Are you laughing at me...Are YOU laughing at me...you saying I'm funny? ...:uhyeah:

From watching the first few UFC's and similar fighting competitions of their kind, I would say yes.

Fighters today are far more well-rounded than they were 10 - 15 years ago, but on the other side of the coin, they have far more rules and limitations in place in the tournements now than they did before.

In fact, I can list all the rules from the first UFC's off the top of my head:

1. No eye gouging
2. No fish hooking
3. No small joint locks
4. No groin shots
5. No biting
6. No weapons

That was it, if I'm not mistaken. I couldn't quote 1/4 of the rules that are in place now.

If you take that into consideration, it would make sense that if your goal was to compete and do well in the UFC or similar orgs, then you would want to train within the ruleset.

Not only that, but the in the first UFC's, the tournement was single-elimination style. Fighters had to fight multiple times, and there were no weight classes to speak of. It was really the closest thing to real fighting as one could get without really fighting.

It's kind of a paradoxical situation...the fighters from the first UFC's (I'm using this term as a generic org) were mostly trained in one core art. They entered into a tournement with virtually no rules (I wouldn't count what I listed above as "rules" of any kind, really). We didn't really see any of these fighters use training from multiple martial arts to their advantage, but they didn't have anything limiting their use of most techniques from any art.

The fighters now are very well versed in multiple martial arts, and train specifically for the fights, but have many limitations placed on them.

And really, the training is the biggest factor...as I was typing, I realized what the key is here between the 2 generations of fighters...the fighters from the first UFC's didn't train specifically for their slotted fight, forsaking all other aspects of their personal lives to train...it wasn't their job. The fighters now are mostly fighting as their sole means of income, or training to fight for that reason, so they have the opportunity to dedicate far more of their time for training. As far as the fighters who haven't achieved a large enough bank to only train all day every day, the UFC has provided a goal for them to train harder for than the previous UFC's did...the first UFC's were just tournements with 1 cash prize at the end for 1 winner....the UFC now (as well as the other orgs out there) treat it more like boxing, where each fighter earns a purse, win or lose.

I think that coupled with the ruleset could be the difference.

Thanks, CMA fights changed drastically with the addition of rule. However Sports Sanshou was specifically designed to fight in a ring however depending on where you fight those rules may change.

But over all it sounds as if the UFC has changed MMA to a more professional sport. But prior to that what was it for? If I understand your previous post correctly it was just some guys that wanted to cross train and then started fighting later. I will admit I originally thought that MMA was specifically a combination of BJJ and Muay Thai; I have since seen it is much more but was it originally just BJJ and Muay Thai or was it just a conglomerate of various styles? And is that now more or less standardized?

This is our promotion's full professional rules.

Fouls:
Butting with the head
Eye gouging of any kind
Biting
Hair pulling
Fish hooking
Groin attacks of any kind
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent
Small joint manipulation
Striking to the spine or back of the head
Striking downward using the point of the elbow
Throat strikes of any kind including without limitation grabbing the trachea
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
Grabbing the clavicle
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
Stomping a grounded opponent
Kicking to the kidney with the heel
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area
Holding the shorts or gloves of opponent
Spitting at an opponent
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent
Holding the ropes or the fence
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area
Attacking an opponent on or during the break
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded at the end of the round
Flagrently disregarding instructions of the referee
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent intentionally or consistantly dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury
Interference by the corner


3 x 5 minute rounds with a mintue between for rest.

We have all agreed weight categories, the rest is probably up for negociation lol!

You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

Sorry I apparently watch too many movies and have lines from Robert DeNiro and Joe Pesci running through my noggin today

So since I apparently know nothing about MMA in England where the early days different from today?

Like I said Sanda was originally military but later changed (by the government) to a sports version for the general public and sports competition. And the addition of rules made the change necessary and those rules, as they changed the style changed. However the military version still exists and is rather different form the sport.

 

[Tez3]

My dear, I'm sorry I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at the idea of us having ruling bodies! The very subject makes us laugh I'm afraid. Not a chance, me old mate!

What's changed from the early days? the shows have got more professional, fighters are training cleverer, more knowledge around but other than that very little really. Public perception of MMA is growing though but not that much. MMA people here come from TMA, TKD, karate full contact fighters wanting more of a challenge (limited amount of people to fight here, small island) Judo people who had done striking, kickboxers both K1 type and MT again wanting a challenge. We only have a couple of full time pro fighters though plenty of fighters fighting pro rules. It's very much a sport here, you can't make a living unless you are extremely lucky as Bisping was to get into TUF. We've had a few fighters in the UFC though.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My dear, I'm sorry I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at the idea of us having ruling bodies! The very subject makes us laugh I'm afraid. Not a chance, me old mate!

No problem, I was not in the least upset, I just had to get these Robert DeNiro and Joe Pesci line out of my head, it has been a slow day here and I think it has driven me a bit over the edge. A word of advice when your really board never think about movies like Taxi Driver, King of Comedy and Good Fellas

What's changed from the early days? the shows have got more professional, fighters are training cleverer, more knowledge around but other than that very little really. Public perception of MMA is growing though but not that much. MMA people here come from TMA, TKD, karate full contact fighters wanting more of a challenge (limited amount of people to fight here, small island) Judo people who had done striking, kickboxers both K1 type and MT again wanting a challenge. We only have a couple of full time pro fighters though plenty of fighters fighting pro rules. It's very much a sport here, you can't make a living unless you are extremely lucky as Bisping was to get into TUF. We've had a few fighters in the UFC though.

Thanks. So would you say that the training is now more geared towards winning the match? Based on what you said about cleverer I would assume that they got rid of things that would not help in the ring.

Here we have, or at least I think we have, schools that are MMA schools and at times I wonder what makes the instructor believe he is an MMA instructor. I believe I told you about a guy near me that from his background and attitude I have no problem with calling him MMA but that is just one school.

 

[Twin Fist]

actually, for UFC 1-3 i think the only rules were:
no biting
no eye gouges
no fish hooks

the groin shots rule didnt come in till AFTER Joe Son, the supposed trainer of Kimo Leopoldo took like 25 uppercuts to his junk in UFC 4 and literally passed out.........

 

[Tez3]

No problem, I was not in the least upset, I just had to get these Robert DeNiro and Joe Pesci line out of my head, it has been a slow day here and I think it has driven me a bit over the edge. A word of advice when your really board never think about movies like Taxi Driver, King of Comedy and Good Fellas



Thanks. So would you say that the training is now more geared towards winning the match? Based on what you said about cleverer I would assume that they got rid of things that would not help in the ring.

Here we have, or at least I think we have, schools that are MMA schools and at times I wonder what makes the instructor believe he is an MMA instructor. I believe I told you about a guy near me that from his background and attitude I have no problem with calling him MMA but that is just one school.

Well you have to remember I'm English female and think what Robert Di Niro sounds like when I read it lol!

I was meaning when I said cleverer that fitness training is more scientific and there's more research about techniques, more searching and training with other clubs etc but thinking about it yes you're right things that don't work will be thrown out or adapted to suit your strengths. there's a lot of helping others with traiing going on which I think is one of the nicest things about MMA here, lots of open mats and showing techniques to others.
MMA here tends only to be called that by those who train and fight even if it's amateur rules. I expect though there will be those who are going to jump on the bandwagon, the best bit about being a small island though is that fighters found out about the phony ones and tend to wander in and take part in training with them which can be very very funny!!

 

[Marginal]

actually, for UFC 1-3 i think the only rules were:
no biting
no eye gouges
no fish hooks

the groin shots rule didnt come in till AFTER Joe Son, the supposed trainer of Kimo Leopoldo took like 25 uppercuts to his junk in UFC 4 and literally passed out.........

The rules varied for the first three events. 2 didn't even allow ref stoppages, so there was no way to actually enforce any rules they happened to have.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well you have to remember I'm English female and think what Robert Di Niro sounds like when I read it lol!

Yup right after I posted it I thought of how humor is not always cross cultural (I have discovered this more than one with my wife who is from China) and that it can be even more difficult over the web.

I was meaning when I said cleverer that fitness training is more scientific and there's more research about techniques, more searching and training with other clubs etc but thinking about it yes you're right things that don't work will be thrown out or adapted to suit your strengths. there's a lot of helping others with traiing going on which I think is one of the nicest things about MMA here, lots of open mats and showing techniques to others.
MMA here tends only to be called that by those who train and fight even if it's amateur rules. I expect though there will be those who are going to jump on the bandwagon, the best bit about being a small island though is that fighters found out about the phony ones and tend to wander in and take part in training with them which can be very very funny!!

Thanks it sound rather interesting I would like to see it someday. Maybe I will get to England one day, but my luck I will get there right after the UFC takes over :uhyeah:

 

[Tez3]

Yup right after I posted it I thought of how humor is not always cross cultural (I have discovered this more than one with my wife who is from China) and that it can be even more difficult over the web.



Thanks it sound rather interesting I would like to see it someday. Maybe I will get to England one day, but my luck I will get there right after the UFC takes over :uhyeah:

No chance! the may think they're taking over but we have a lot of promotions here, oursleves included, who will never give in to the UFC, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing fields, we will never surrender.....you get the idea lol!! It's not the biggest or most popular promotion here, it is however the most expensive.
However the TUF is having a UK v USA 'edition' next year, auditions in spring so thats going to prove interesting, guess the subtitles will be in use again lol! Hopefully though it will give you a chance to see what we have, hopefully one of them will be our fighter, mind he doesn't talk much lol!

 

[BrandonLucas]

actually, for UFC 1-3 i think the only rules were:
no biting
no eye gouges
no fish hooks

the groin shots rule didnt come in till AFTER Joe Son, the supposed trainer of Kimo Leopoldo took like 25 uppercuts to his junk in UFC 4 and literally passed out.........

That's right...I forgot about that....

Junk punches suck.

 

[jim777]

Two of my younger brothers study BJJ with the Gracies in NYC, and they both love it. One is Sandan in Shotokan as well. So, in honor of them (if you're out there Charlie and/or Mike), I'll just add here the same code I put at the bottom of all of my emails to them.

It seems only fair, given that there are thousands of vids on youtube that make TKD look bad (or worse!)

(Please keep in mind this is from a comedy TV show, that lasted exactly one episode before being pulled off the air - it's meant to be funny and light hearted so please take it that way )

 

[Twin Fist]

funniest
thing
EVER

 

[Tez3]

Seen it before and I still want to know who the guy in the denim jacket is that tells her its gay.... he's fit!!

I grapple with men and enjoy it but I'm not gay rofl!!

 

[BrandonLucas]

Awesome!! What was the name of the show?

I really think it's funnier to martial artists than to the average person watching tv.

 

[jim777]

I believe it was called "Emily's Reasons Why Not", and I suppose the premise was that she'd have 10 reasons (or so) per episode for why he current guy wasn't 'The One For Her'. And I agree this is funnier to MAs than it would be to most other people

 

[Steve]

I believe it was called "Emily's Reasons Why Not", and I suppose the premise was that she'd have 10 reasons (or so) per episode for why he current guy wasn't 'The One For Her'. And I agree this is funnier to MAs than it would be to most other people

This one's been floating around for a while. What's really funny is that they are actually filming somewhat credible BJJ. Gayest Sport There Is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily's_Reasons_Why_Not

 

[crushing]

This one's been floating around for a while. What's really funny is that they are actually filming somewhat credible BJJ. Gayest Sport There Is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily's_Reasons_Why_Not

I thought it was gay only if you make eye contact (not that there is anything wrong with that).

:idunno:

 

[Tez3]

I thought it was gay only if you make eye contact (not that there is anything wrong with that).

:idunno:

nah it's only gay if you push back!!

 

[Pyrock]

I just wanted to get back to the subject of BJJ vs. Tae Kwon Do. My son trains in Tae Kwon Do and is currently a blue belt which is smack dab in the middle of his schools ranking system (since some schools rank differently). As part of his TKD schools program, they teach some Jiu Jitsu basics especially to the upper ranking kids which IMO, is a great idea. They even issue Jiu Jitsu belts every 6 months or so.

My son liked it so much that 5 months ago, he started training with a Gracie BJJ school nearby because he wanted more mat time. Recently, he attended a TKD tournament held by his TKD school in which they had an exhibition event that they called "Sports Jiu Jitsu". It was mainly for the upper belts to practice their Jiu Jitsu along with their TKD Sparring. They allow striking up until the clinch at which point striking is no longer allowed and they go strictly to Jiu Jitsu.

Anyway, in this video, my son was matched up against a student who recently received his TKD blackbelt. My son has had better matches in which he demonstrated better BJJ skills but he was a bit tired and rushed things a bit so please excuse his sloppy technique...afterall, he's only 7 and has only been at it for a short time. The second video below is of the tournament before...in short, I think it's best to train in both BJJ and TKD so you can be well balanced. Oh, my son is the smaller one in each video... Both opponents held higher TKD ranks than my son yet he won both matches because of his BJJ training.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg5b1iN0t1c&feature=channel_page

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h8TIidGs40k&feature=channel_page