Bin Laden is dead

[yorkshirelad]

You know, I took you off ignore because this topic was important. I've read your comments and Bob Hubbard's responses and I am convinced now more than ever that you seriously just type ****.

You don't read other people's posts. It's not even a discussion with you, you're talking AT us.

Totally. Not. Worth. My. Time.

Buh-bye. Again.

Someone's tired!! That ignore button must be worn out by now.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Kids, take the personal digs elsewhere.
Note I did not say 'please'.

 

[yorkshirelad]

If I knew someone had vital infomation and I could save thousands of lives I still wouldn't waterboard them because I know, yes, know that it isn't the fastest or the most efficient way of gaining that information, it's crude and done more for the enjoyment of those watching or for revenge. .

Really, so this Brits don't torture? Hmm, if waterboarding is considered mental torture, what about telling someone if they don't talk, you'll kill their family. Is that torture? What about kicking the guy's head in. Is that torture? You'll probably deny it. Or tell us something about your James Bond adventures!What about Brits been held in Guantanamo without trial? Is it wrong Irene? Everyone out there, did you know that from 1971 to 1998 over 12000 irishmen have been held, many without trial? What was their crime? Being a Republican. HM prison Maze is probably one of the most notorious institututions of Irish internment, but Irene is ok with thousands of the Irish being dragged out of their beds in the dead of night by what was then the RUC and British soldiers and held without trial, but Guantanamo is a no no. Oh the hypocrisy!

 

[Big Don]

"Obama killed Osama and we get 72 versions."

 

[Tez3]

One day some people will actually read what I've written not what they think I've written. I have no time for supporters of the PIRA who hate the UK.... the English and the Scots in particular. Remember the PIRA trained with both the PLO and the Libyans.
I know what Yorkshirelads agenda is as he's proved, he's a PIRA/Provo sympathiser who hates the British and the British security forces in particular hence the personal attacks and the yet again twisting of words. Read what you selectively quoted I said very carefully, I said water boarding is inefficent in gaining reliable intel, there are far better methods which are considered immmoral and illegal but work much better.

It's still the RUC and they are brave hard working police officers, one of whom was blown up by your lot a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

In 2003, the CIA captured Mohammed, the group's operational leader. Mohammed was interrogated using what the agency called "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as sleep deprivation and the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding. Months after being waterboarded, Mohammed acknowledged knowing al-Kuwaiti, former officials say.

...Mohammed acknowledged knowing al-Kuwaiti after being waterboarded, but he also denied he was an Al Qaeda figure or of any importance. It was a lie, much like the stories Mohammed said he made up about where bin Laden was hiding. Even after the CIA deemed him "compliant," Mohammed never gave up al-Kuwaiti's real name or his location, or acknowledged al-Kuwaiti's importance in the terrorist network.

Al-Libi was not waterboarded. But he did get the full range of enhanced interrogation, including intense sleep deprivation, former officials recalled. Despite those efforts, al-Libi adamantly denied knowing al-Kuwaiti. He acknowledged meeting with an important courier, but he provided a fake name.


Both he and Mohammed withheld or fabricated information, even after the agency's toughest interrogations. That gave credence to what many longtime interrogators have maintained, that increasingly harsh questioning produces information but not necessarily reliable information.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/07/bin-laden-death-reignites-debate-cia-tactics/


Sounds like good old fashioned detective work was what did it as the torture generated a mix of accurate/inaccurate information which needed to be vetted through other sources to filter out the 'tell you what you want to know to make it stop' lies.

I know, I know, read the discredited book by the apologist whose also been debunked, but take it as fact.

 

[yorkshirelad]

One day some people will actually read what I've written not what they think I've written. I have no time for supporters of the PIRA who hate the UK.... the English and the Scots in particular. Remember the PIRA trained with both the PLO and the Libyans.

.

I don't blame you for having no time for them, but British security forces have tortured them, and held them without trial and you seem to be ok with that, but not with Guantanamo....Interesting!You keep claiming that I am a provo supporter. I know you are angry and can't help the personal attacks, but I am no more of a supporter of the Provos as you are a supporter of al Qaeda. You have a habit of lambasting the US for crimes that the Brits have be perpetrating for years. My posts are to point out your hypocrisy, not to support any faction of the IRA. Btw, I thought the RUC were now the PSNI incorporating the RUC, but I could be wrong!

 

[billc]

Where were the british nationals captured...on a foreign battlefield fighting as unlawful combatants?

 

[billc]

The process to get to gitmo is quite extensive and we have been reviewing cases yearly. That is why we see about a quarter of these guys, the innocent sheep herders, back on the battlefield killing our people. There are numerous checks on who gets sent to gitmo, and if it is found later that someone shouldn't be there, they are released. Is it perfect, of course not, but tell me a better system in the context of fighting a group of people who can't just be "sent Home" after the war, like after world war 2.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What about the ones 'released' about 100 miles off shore from 50' in the air Bill?

 

[Tez3]

I don't blame you for having no time for them, but British security forces have tortured them, and held them without trial and you seem to be ok with that, but not with Guantanamo....Interesting!You keep claiming that I am a provo supporter. I know you are angry and can't help the personal attacks, but I am no more of a supporter of the Provos as you are a supporter of al Qaeda. You have a habit of lambasting the US for crimes that the Brits have be perpetrating for years. My posts are to point out your hypocrisy, not to support any faction of the IRA. Btw, I thought the RUC were now the PSNI incorporating the RUC, but I could be wrong!

Wrong, wrong and wrong again.
I am not angry in the least, tired of you twisting my words though and the personal attacks you make on me that have been noted by others so is hardly my imagination.

I haven't lambasted the US at all you just haven't read my posts correctly.
I said that if different stories keep coming out about the raid there could be difficulties, even Billcihak sees that! I said that it needs sorting, it doesn't matter what the rest of the world says but I imagine the American public will tire of being told different things every time there's a press statement.

I've said that torture like waterboarding doesn't work regardless of how people feel about it. I've said we should note the word should be in the right when we do things, we should, that word again be morally correct. I didn't say we were, I didn't say the UK was and the USA wasn't. I said WE should btw way not you. It's how you read it. You chose only to read part of what I wrote as I don't believe in torture instead of my saying waterboarding doesn't work, you deliberately missed that part out in your quote.

I haven't said Osama shouldn't have been killed, I did say I supported going after the Munich Olympics killers and I support going after Nazi war criminals even though many of you said it was wrong. I did say however that killing him may open a door that we can't close.

I did say that if you choose interfere in other countries affairs you have to take what comes, which is common sense and not a rabid criticism of America.

I have no habit of criticising America unlike your one of saying the UK sucks at every opportunity and how Dublin was great and America greater.

How about you now prove that Paras beat up pregnant women and the Provos are all innocent of any cruelty? They of course don't torture, Robert Nairac beat himself up I suppose. they don't kneecap 'informers', they don't make people disappear. No it's only the British who are to blame for everything. As you can't get at the British you think you'll use me as your whipping horse instead. Crack on, I have broad shoulders and am only amused by gormless behaviour not angered.

Your posts continously show all the hallmarks of a British hating republican sympathiser. why else the hate and the twisting what I say to make it seem as if I am anti American? all that hate for the British security forces who at least support the Americans in their fight against a common enemy. I think your snide remarks about me, personal ones and in case any don't get the message the use of my given name as opposed to my username just to make sure it's really personal.

For the record any one taken for interrogation in Northern Ireland was arrested, cautioned and held in prison. They were sent for trial, if found guilty they'd be sentenced, if not and there were some who were found innocent they were released. Yes, there were wrongful arrests and there were miscarriages of justice but even they got sorted. As squaddies say '**** happens in war' but we can try to make things better when we cock up. No ones perfect, no countries perfect but the first thing would be to read what's actually written rather than reading into posts what you see in your head.

The Troubles have been going on for centuries to attempt to equate it with Bin Laden's death is almost comical. for the record too, we drank a toast to the Navy SEALS and to the death of a terrorists. Don't forget the same troops you accuse of torturing people are the ones fighting alongside Americans in Afghanistan.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It's a funny thing....

Guys kid is kidnapped. raped. murdered. He finds the killer. Kills the killer.
Many would say 'killer got what was coming' and 'good'.
I don't think I'd disagree.
But, you're piling on the wrongs.
The father, in the end, is also guilty of breaking the law.
Lots of circumstances there.

I'm not disagreeing that Bin Ladens death is bad. Not in the least.
Not saying the guys who went in, at great risk, were in the wrong.
I'm not even going to say that shooting the SOB on site was wrong.
I'm not going to say that any pain inflicted on the masterminds of 9/11 is unjustified.

My whole position is a simple one:
Evil tortures. The Bad Guys torture.
We're supposed to be the good guys here.
We're not supposed to do the things the bad guys do.
Stalin had secret prisons. So did Sadamn. So did Quadafi. So did a lot of those guys we list as 'Bad Guys".
So, what are we, if we have the same things?
Do the same things? Use the same methods?

My argument is on the legal aspects, the moral aspects, the "we're supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard".

US troops aren't supposed to be given viagra in their rations and told 'Have at em boys, whatever you catch you can ****." which is reported to be happening in Libya with loyalist troops, and has happened in several African nations civil wars.
British troops aren't supposed to strip the battlefield dead of their wallets, loot the captured camp, and chop off fingers as trophies, all actions done in other conflicts by soldiers from the 'bad guys' armies.
Canadian troops aren't supposed to dig pits, line them with sharp sticks covered in crap like the Vietcong did.
That whole, 'good guys' thing.
Allied troops in WW2 were supposed to treat their POW's well, not herd them into a field and mow them down with machine gun fire like an SS unit did....however watch some WWII documentaries and you'll now hear differently.
But we're the good guys....right?

What makes us the good guys, and them the bad guys, if we do the same evil things?
My point.
Bill and I can go back and forth trading dueling authors.
Tez, you and YL can go back and forth over the IRA.


At the end of the day, it's all forum banter. The terrorists are still out there, were still at war, and we've still lost a bit of what we were before this all started.
I miss 2000.

But, Osama is dead, and for a moment, I can say, Good.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Wrong, wrong and wrong again.
I am not angry in the least, tired of you twisting my words though and the personal attacks you make on me that have been noted by others so is hardly my imagination..

Pull the other one Irene, it's got bells on it!

.[/quote]I haven't lambasted the US at all you just haven't read my posts correctly.
I said that if different stories keep coming out about the raid there could be difficulties, even Billcihak sees that! I said that it needs sorting, it doesn't matter what the rest of the world says but I imagine the American public will tire of being told different things every time there's a press statement..[/quote]

Correct! Obama did the right thing in snding in the SEALs! Whatever miscommunications happened or keep happening the facts don't change that the bastard is dead, and good riddens!

.[/quote]I've said that torture like waterboarding doesn't work regardless of how people feel about it. I've said we should note the word should be in the right when we do things, we should, that word again be morally correct. I didn't say we were, I didn't say the UK was and the USA wasn't. I said WE should btw way not you. It's how you read it. You chose only to read part of what I wrote as I don't believe in torture instead of my saying waterboarding doesn't work, you deliberately missed that part out in your quote..[/quote]

Tell that to Leon Panetta!

.[/quote]I haven't said Osama shouldn't have been killed, I did say I supported going after the Munich Olympics killers and I support going after Nazi war criminals even though many of you said it was wrong. I did say however that killing him may open a door that we can't close..[/quote]

Many may have said it was wrong, but not I. The door has already been opened Irene, nothing's gonna close it. Radical Islamists, Christians, Sikh, Pagans and Scientologists that choose to kill to spread their ideology have to be taken out, period!

.[/quote]I did say that if you choose interfere in other countries affairs you have to take what comes, which is common sense and not a rabid criticism of America. .[/quote]

We interfere because no one else can or will. It's a pitty the Brits didn't follow the advise you're giving before interfering with; the Middle East, Africa, America, Australia and Ireland.

.[/quote]I have no habit of criticising America unlike your one of saying the UK sucks at every opportunity and how Dublin was great and America greater..[/quote]

I think the UK sucks for general reasons; the food, weather, women, entitlement society.

.[/quote]How about you now prove that Paras beat up pregnant women and the Provos are all innocent of any cruelty? They of course don't torture, Robert Nairac beat himself up I suppose. they don't kneecap 'informers', they don't make people disappear. No it's only the British who are to blame for everything. As you can't get at the British you think you'll use me as your whipping horse instead. Crack on, I have broad shoulders and am only amused by gormless behaviour not angered. .[/quote]

More personal attacks Irene, dang your angry! Yes, your right, the Provos are a vicious group of bastard. They do all the above and more. Paint stripper has been a preferred tool of the Provos for years. Nairac, by all accounts was a good guy, a handy boxer. The guy got a raw deal!


.[/quote]Your posts continously show all the hallmarks of a British hating republican sympathiser. why else the hate and the twisting what I say to make it seem as if I am anti American? all that hate for the British security forces who at least support the Americans in their fight against a common enemy. I think your snide remarks about me, personal ones and in case any don't get the message the use of my given name as opposed to my username just to make sure it's really personal..[/quote]

No Irene, my posts show honesty! I have no problems dragging some terrorist bastard out of his bed in the dead of night and kicking the crap out of him, if I think it will save lives. What the Brits do with Irish Republican terrorists is ok with me. But don't for one second call the US on war crimes when your people have been doing it for centuries. At least I'm consistant Irene. I don't care what happens to al qaeda terrorists or suspected terrorists. On the other hand, I don't give a toss what happens to Provo terorists. They reap what they sow!

.[/quote]For the record any one taken for interrogation in Northern Ireland was arrested, cautioned and held in prison. They were sent for trial, if found guilty they'd be sentenced, if not and there were some who were found innocent they were released. Yes, there were wrongful arrests and there were miscarriages of justice but even they got sorted. As squaddies say '**** happens in war' but we can try to make things better when we cock up. No ones perfect, no countries perfect but the first thing would be to read what's actually written rather than reading into posts what you see in your head..[/quote]

So Irish internment never happened then Irene! Wow!

.[/quote]The Troubles have been going on for centuries to attempt to equate it with Bin Laden's death is almost comical. for the record too, we drank a toast to the Navy SEALS and to the death of a terrorists. Don't forget the same troops you accuse of torturing people are the ones fighting alongside Americans in Afghanistan.[/quote]

You don't want to equate the IRA with al qaeda. As far as I'm concerned a terrorist is a terrorist....Oh, I get it, you don't want to equate the treatment of al qaeda suspects by the US with the treatment of IRA suspects by the British. Well people, the IRA were treated far more severely by the Brits, than detainess are treated in Guantanamo.

 

[Tez3]

I agree with you Bob but when I say what you say I get called a hypocrite and get personal remarks made and yes I've taken the proper procedures provided for when that happens. For some it's not an internet debate it's turning into a hate campaign.
Yes, I'm glad Osamas dead but I am also concerned we do the right thing as moral people.

Perhaps the difference between us and the bad guys is that we try to do our best and to be moral. Like all humans, we don't always make it and there's always going to be bad apples but the intention is there to do the right thing, to do what we know is right. We do try to discipline our people when they do wrong, we do try to investigate the bad things done in our name, we try and in the end that's all anyone can do.

 

[yorkshirelad]

at the end of the day, it's all forum banter. The terrorists are still out there, were still at war, and we've still lost a bit of what we were before this all started.
I miss 2000.

But, osama is dead, and for a moment, i can say, good.

qtf!!

 

[Tez3]

[
Stop using my name, I haven't said you can. No I'm not angry, again you think you can bulldoze your answers to make me out to be something I'm not.

You are now answering my posts in such a way that proves what I said wasn't criticising America.

You seem still determined to push the Provo point of view though, Internment now. Now I'm not supposed to mention what America does in Gitmo but it's fine for you to bring up Internment, not very hypocritical that is it? You need to prove btw that the internees were treated worse than the detainees in Gitmo not just state it as if it were a fact.

I wasn't offerring any advice btw when I said that countries who interfere in others business etc, just pointing out what is common sense, show me where the advice is.

Where was I getting personal? gormless behaviour, my did the cap fit even though I didn't say it was your behaviour? Your behaviour isn't gormless it's spiteful. Calm down dear, (that's not patronising, our Prime Minister says in in Parliament) goad away and keep trying to attribute things to me, it means you are leaving others alone. You want to discuss Northern Ireland, start a new thread, don't derail this one.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm making this statement so it's in the clear.

Tez has requested, on several occasions, to not be addressed by her given name.

Please cease doing so. Continuation will be seen as harassment, which is a violation of our policies. No need to acknowledge. Just do it.
Thank you.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

It's a funny thing....

Guys kid is kidnapped. raped. murdered. He finds the killer. Kills the killer.
Many would say 'killer got what was coming' and 'good'.
I don't think I'd disagree.
But, you're piling on the wrongs.
The father, in the end, is also guilty of breaking the law.
Lots of circumstances there.

some laws are worth breaking. I would not only kill the man that did that, I would end his line, erase him and his from history, but then I come from a different cloth then most folks. If you mess with my family, I pull out all the stops, and Its midevil time. You may want to look at other examples.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

some laws are worth breaking. I would not only kill the man that did that, I would end his line, erase him and his from history, but then I come from a different cloth then most folks. If you mess with my family, I pull out all the stops, and Its midevil time. You may want to look at other examples.

No, it's a good example.
There is legal, and there is right.
There is legal, and there is justice.

The laws aren't necessarily right nor just, but, they are the law.
That's my point there.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

My whole position is a simple one:
Evil tortures. The Bad Guys torture.
We're supposed to be the good guys here.
We're not supposed to do the things the bad guys do.
Stalin had secret prisons. So did Sadamn. So did Quadafi. So did a lot of those guys we list as 'Bad Guys".
So, what are we, if we have the same things?
Do the same things? Use the same methods?

My argument is on the legal aspects, the moral aspects, the "we're supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard".

US troops aren't supposed to be given viagra in their rations and told 'Have at em boys, whatever you catch you can ****." which is reported to be happening in Libya with loyalist troops, and has happened in several African nations civil wars.
British troops aren't supposed to strip the battlefield dead of their wallets, loot the captured camp, and chop off fingers as trophies, all actions done in other conflicts by soldiers from the 'bad guys' armies.
Canadian troops aren't supposed to dig pits, line them with sharp sticks covered in crap like the Vietcong did.
That whole, 'good guys' thing.
Allied troops in WW2 were supposed to treat their POW's well, not herd them into a field and mow them down with machine gun fire like an SS unit did....however watch some WWII documentaries and you'll now hear differently.
But we're the good guys....right?

What makes us the good guys, and them the bad guys, if we do the same evil things?
My point.

I don't look at it as good versus evil.
I have no interest in being the good guys.
I want to enjoy our way of life.
I want to offer that way of life to those who would embrace it and enjoy it as well.
I want to end those that seek to end my way of life.
no good or evil in it.
just them versus us.
Of course most of us would call it good versus evil, I am sure they think they are good and we are evil, so that is subjective.
It is not about good versus evil.