The ones that are obvious to anyone who's been here more then 30 days.
Bin Laden is dead
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Empty Hands
Senior Master
How about Donald Rumsfeld?
"Asked if harsh interrogation techniques at Guantanamo Bay played a role in obtaining intelligence on bin Ladens whereabouts, Rumsfeld declares: First of all, no one was waterboarded at Guantanamo Bay. Thats a myth thats been perpetrated around the country by critics.
The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone. It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding. LINK
they were waterboarded in the secret European sites, the other intel came from other harsh interogation techniques at Guantanamo bay. ON NBC Brian Williams got the director of the Central Intelligence Committee, Leon Panetta to admit that water boarding was one of the sources of the intel. He however has gotten the orders from the white house, he called it one part of the mosaic that got the intel. THe central intelligence agency did the waterboarding, not the soldiers at gitmo, that was to make sure the military was not involved in the technique.
******Rumsfeld said on Hannity's show that he was misquoted about waterboarding*****
*****It did lead to useful intelligence, Rumsfeld Says*****
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.c...aterboarding-led-us-to-osama-bin-laden-video/
So you were saying about Rumsfeld?
From the article:
“CIA Director Panetta indicated that one of the individuals who provided important information had in fact been waterboarded… There was some confusion today on some programs, even one on FOX I think, suggesting that I indicated that no one who was waterboarded at Guantanamo provided any information on this. It’s not true. No one was waterboarded at Guantanamo by the US military. In fact no one was waterboarded at Guantanamo period. Three people were waterboarded by the CIA away from Guantanamo and then later were brought to Guantanamo. And, in fact, as you pointed out the information from these individuals was critically important.”
And another view of the video that discusses Olberman being wrong on the water boarding issue:
http://bigjournalism.com/pjsalvator...-olbermann-meme-on-waterboarding/#more-190876
*****It did lead to useful intelligence, Rumsfeld Says*****
http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.c...aterboarding-led-us-to-osama-bin-laden-video/
So you were saying about Rumsfeld?
From the article:
“CIA Director Panetta indicated that one of the individuals who provided important information had in fact been waterboarded… There was some confusion today on some programs, even one on FOX I think, suggesting that I indicated that no one who was waterboarded at Guantanamo provided any information on this. It’s not true. No one was waterboarded at Guantanamo by the US military. In fact no one was waterboarded at Guantanamo period. Three people were waterboarded by the CIA away from Guantanamo and then later were brought to Guantanamo. And, in fact, as you pointed out the information from these individuals was critically important.”
And another view of the video that discusses Olberman being wrong on the water boarding issue:
http://bigjournalism.com/pjsalvator...-olbermann-meme-on-waterboarding/#more-190876
I just liked the "catch and release" program where the subjects were 'released' somewhere between take off at Guantanamo and the landing at "undisclosed".
But, last I mentioned that I was called a nut, despite my source being directly involved with one of those '3 letter orgs'.
Ah, the joys of official announcements, changing stories, and few realizing that in the middle of a war one rarely tells the enemy the truth.
American Public to the White House: "We want you to tell us how you did it. In detail. Name names, time frames, who was where, what they had for lunch, everything. We have a right to know!"
White House to American Public: "You want us to tell you everything? On CNN? On the radio, in your newspapers, and via email? Everything?"
American Public: "YES! We have a right to know!"
White House: "Are you ****ing stupid? The enemy is still out there, and they can read too. You want us to tell you everything so that they know it too? Piss Off!"
American Public: "See it's a cover up! Stop treating us like we're dumb. Just tell us. We won't tell them. Make it illegal for the enemy to read CNN."
White House: "Idiots."
I think that summarizes the next 3 months in arguments.
But, last I mentioned that I was called a nut, despite my source being directly involved with one of those '3 letter orgs'.
Ah, the joys of official announcements, changing stories, and few realizing that in the middle of a war one rarely tells the enemy the truth.
American Public to the White House: "We want you to tell us how you did it. In detail. Name names, time frames, who was where, what they had for lunch, everything. We have a right to know!"
White House to American Public: "You want us to tell you everything? On CNN? On the radio, in your newspapers, and via email? Everything?"
American Public: "YES! We have a right to know!"
White House: "Are you ****ing stupid? The enemy is still out there, and they can read too. You want us to tell you everything so that they know it too? Piss Off!"
American Public: "See it's a cover up! Stop treating us like we're dumb. Just tell us. We won't tell them. Make it illegal for the enemy to read CNN."
White House: "Idiots."
I think that summarizes the next 3 months in arguments.
As to waterboarding, it's torture. Any sane person agrees. US law declares it so. International law declares it so. Dead horse debate, been gone over a while back, a few times.
If this white house is being so careful about telling us things we shouldn't know, why do they keep shouting from the rooftops about the huge amounts of intel they got from bin ladens computers. It may have been wiser to either say nothing about what they found or say it was destroyed by bin ladens people or damaged in the raid. The keep them guessing strategy is probably too complex for the amatuers running this white house.
As to torture or not, Mark Levin head of the landmark legal foundation and constitutional lawyer and scholar would disagree with that. His show tonight went through the reason bush put gitmo off shore and in past shows he discussed the legalities of waterboarding. previous supreme court rulings have stated that their jurisdiction doesn't apply in foreign countries, which is where the waterboarding was done.
This article by Ron Radosh goes through the complex mental gymnastics the left has to go through to claim victory in killin Bin Laden while denying all the techniques, that they hate, which actually made it possible.
http://pajamasmedia.com/ronradosh/2...-hypocrisy-over-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden/
From the article:
As the front-page New York Times report by Mark Mazzetti and Helene Cooper points out, intelligence agencies had been trying for close to a decade to identify the man. They learned of him, however, when “detainees at the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, had given the courier’s pseudonym to American interrogators and said that the man was a protégé of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the confessed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks.” They learned his real name four years ago — when the government was led by the very men liberals despised the most, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney...
...Moreover, it is also clear that much of the information that led to the courier’s identity came from the so-called “enhanced interrogation techniques,” the very mechanism that regularly led to charges of torture, abuse of power, illegal U.S. spying techniques, waterboarding, rendition, and questioning in secret facilities abroad where those interrogating the detainees did not have to abide by methods forbidden to be used within the United States.
In another Times story by Mazzetti, Cooper, and Peter Baker, the journalists put it this way:
The raid was the culmination of years of painstaking intelligence work, including the interrogation of C.I.A. detainees in secret prisons in Eastern Europe, where sometimes what was not said was as useful as what was. Intelligence agencies eavesdropped on telephone calls and e-mails of the courier’s Arab family in a Persian Gulf state and pored over satellite images of the compound in Abbottabad to determine a “pattern of life” that might decide whether the operation would be worth the risk...
ndeed, as the intelligence reporter Michael Isikoff, now with NBC News, reported yesterday:
The trail that led to the doorstep of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan began years earlier with aggressive interrogations of al-Qaida detainees at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay and CIA ‘black site’ prisons overseas, according to U.S. officials.
It was those sometimes controversial interrogations that first produced descriptions of members of bin Laden’s courier network, including one critical Middle Eastern courier who along with his brother was protecting bin Laden at his heavily fortified compound in Abbottabad on Sunday...
****According to Isikoff, early information about the courier for Bin Laden came from none other than “Mohammed al-Qahtani, who was subjected to some of the most humiliating interrogations at Guantanamo. Among the enhanced interrogation techniques used on him were being forced to wear a woman’s bra, being led around on a leash and forced to perform dog tricks and being subjected to cold temperatures that twice required his hospitalization, according to a later U.S. military report.”
But in essence, that the SEAL team killed him means that they were indeed engaging in targeted assassination, precisely the kind that Israel is regularly criticized for by “human rights” groups when it eliminates anti-Israel terrorists in foreign countries by Mossad hit teams.
http://pajamasmedia.com/ronradosh/2...-hypocrisy-over-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden/
From the article:
As the front-page New York Times report by Mark Mazzetti and Helene Cooper points out, intelligence agencies had been trying for close to a decade to identify the man. They learned of him, however, when “detainees at the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, had given the courier’s pseudonym to American interrogators and said that the man was a protégé of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the confessed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks.” They learned his real name four years ago — when the government was led by the very men liberals despised the most, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney...
...Moreover, it is also clear that much of the information that led to the courier’s identity came from the so-called “enhanced interrogation techniques,” the very mechanism that regularly led to charges of torture, abuse of power, illegal U.S. spying techniques, waterboarding, rendition, and questioning in secret facilities abroad where those interrogating the detainees did not have to abide by methods forbidden to be used within the United States.
In another Times story by Mazzetti, Cooper, and Peter Baker, the journalists put it this way:
The raid was the culmination of years of painstaking intelligence work, including the interrogation of C.I.A. detainees in secret prisons in Eastern Europe, where sometimes what was not said was as useful as what was. Intelligence agencies eavesdropped on telephone calls and e-mails of the courier’s Arab family in a Persian Gulf state and pored over satellite images of the compound in Abbottabad to determine a “pattern of life” that might decide whether the operation would be worth the risk...
ndeed, as the intelligence reporter Michael Isikoff, now with NBC News, reported yesterday:
The trail that led to the doorstep of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan began years earlier with aggressive interrogations of al-Qaida detainees at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay and CIA ‘black site’ prisons overseas, according to U.S. officials.
It was those sometimes controversial interrogations that first produced descriptions of members of bin Laden’s courier network, including one critical Middle Eastern courier who along with his brother was protecting bin Laden at his heavily fortified compound in Abbottabad on Sunday...
****According to Isikoff, early information about the courier for Bin Laden came from none other than “Mohammed al-Qahtani, who was subjected to some of the most humiliating interrogations at Guantanamo. Among the enhanced interrogation techniques used on him were being forced to wear a woman’s bra, being led around on a leash and forced to perform dog tricks and being subjected to cold temperatures that twice required his hospitalization, according to a later U.S. military report.”
But in essence, that the SEAL team killed him means that they were indeed engaging in targeted assassination, precisely the kind that Israel is regularly criticized for by “human rights” groups when it eliminates anti-Israel terrorists in foreign countries by Mossad hit teams.
The dailycaller.com has the Leon Panetta dance around the waterboarding issue.
http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/03/torturous-evasions/
from the article:
CIA Director Leon Panetta stomped on the White House’s political script when he told Tuesday night’s broadcast of NBC Nightly News that the waterboarding of jihadi detainees contributed information that led to the location and killing of Osama bin Laden.
“We had multiple series of sources that provided information with regards to this situation… clearly some of it came from detainees [and] they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of those detainees,” he told NBC anchor Brian Williams.
When asked by Williams if water-boarding was part of the “enhanced interrogation techniques,” Panetta simply said “that’s correct.”
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/03/torturous-evasions/#ixzz1LM3RjrUl
http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/03/torturous-evasions/
from the article:
CIA Director Leon Panetta stomped on the White House’s political script when he told Tuesday night’s broadcast of NBC Nightly News that the waterboarding of jihadi detainees contributed information that led to the location and killing of Osama bin Laden.
“We had multiple series of sources that provided information with regards to this situation… clearly some of it came from detainees [and] they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of those detainees,” he told NBC anchor Brian Williams.
When asked by Williams if water-boarding was part of the “enhanced interrogation techniques,” Panetta simply said “that’s correct.”
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/03/torturous-evasions/#ixzz1LM3RjrUl
Well, yes Bill, see, in the US it's torture, but in say Syria, it's a party game, so that makes it all ok. Eh, I don't buy it. But, that's a different argument, one I'm not interested in really rehashing.
As to why they say what they say, it's to serve 3 purposes.
1- satisfy some of the people demanding information.
People want to know. They can't separate fact from fiction. They weren't there. So you tell them what they want to hear, you make it sound good, you make it sound real, and maybe, just maybe, it is real. But, not being there, you have to take it at face value, or not.
2- create confusion and doubt amongst our enemies.
Dropping names, makes life difficult for the ones named. The ones not in custody, now wonder, what else might have been let slip. What else is known. Not knowing what is known, you are now forced to make the call, change plans or continue and hope they aren't known. This disorganizes the enemy, forces them to waste time and resources, and possibly expose themselves as they move. You let them know you know where they are, then you watch the 10 spots you think they're at, and wait to see if there is any movement. Etc.
3- Embarrass our enemies and some of our allies.
"Osama died hiding like a coward behind a woman."
"We purposefully didn't tell our good Pakistani allies about the raid....."
etc.
It's propaganda. It's tactics. It's strategy.
It's a game of chess being played at a much bigger level than most folks discussing it can comprehend.
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4) they are inexperienced and so need to exaggerate even when there is no need to. They killed bin laden and raided his home, the people who think they might be compromised will already be altering behavior, it is the dumb ones who might take the bait and think they are safe if "everything was destroyed," during the raid. But I agree with the first three as well. You really stay up late, unless you are in californiaand it's earlier than here. Goodnight, happy shooting.
I'm in NY, I never sleep. LOL 
As to inexperienced, some are. But, there are experienced veterans on all sides of this conflict. George Bush looked to me during his presidency to be every bit as thick and inexperienced as Obama's been portrayed. In hindsight, some of those moments look different. Both also have significant staffs who are trained and focus on things to a level of detail the CiC doesn't need. I mean, the guy who makes the call on how many rounds each SEAL carried wasn't sitting in DC that night. As to the terrorists, while the average grunt might be an uneducated shmuck, the guys doing logistics tend to be well educated, well connected and experts. Osama remember was a veteran guerrilla fighter who went toe to toe against the Soviets. Many of his 'core' are well trained as well.
Chess. Move here, watch there, listen there. Diversion, misinform, make a 'mistake', see what happens next. See who stops showing up at that cafe, who are the new faces at the other place, etc.
As to inexperienced, some are. But, there are experienced veterans on all sides of this conflict. George Bush looked to me during his presidency to be every bit as thick and inexperienced as Obama's been portrayed. In hindsight, some of those moments look different. Both also have significant staffs who are trained and focus on things to a level of detail the CiC doesn't need. I mean, the guy who makes the call on how many rounds each SEAL carried wasn't sitting in DC that night. As to the terrorists, while the average grunt might be an uneducated shmuck, the guys doing logistics tend to be well educated, well connected and experts. Osama remember was a veteran guerrilla fighter who went toe to toe against the Soviets. Many of his 'core' are well trained as well.
Chess. Move here, watch there, listen there. Diversion, misinform, make a 'mistake', see what happens next. See who stops showing up at that cafe, who are the new faces at the other place, etc.
WC_lun
Senior Master
The US prosecuted both US soldiers for waterboarding in the past and foreign nationals for water boarding as torture and a war crime. Per our law and our past prosecutions it is torture. Period.
There is a fairy tale about an Emperor who was dressed, according to his acolytes, in clothing made from wonderful fabric with magical properties, so fine that it couldn't be seen, except by those who were completely pure in heart and spirit.
A lot of people on this forum are obviously 'completely pure in heart and spirit' because they can see the purity of the Western Nations including the US and Australia, among others, and they can see that such advanced cultures would never resort to torture to obtain information that may prevent catastrophies caused by terrorism.
Personally I am obviously not 'pure in heart and spirit' because it is apparent to me that Gitmo is not located on US soil for the reason that events taking place there are not only illegal on US soil but that much of the information obtained cannot even be used in a court of law because it is obtained under duress.
Now, I am not suggesting that torture like suspending prisoners by their wrists and delivering electric shock from electrodes attached to certain sensitive areas takes place in Gitmo. I mean, that's pretty crude. That takes place in other places like Egypt, a process termed 'rendition'. http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2011/04/26/3200746.htm
Or another example:
The US, Poland, Egypt and Australia are signatories to the United Nations Convention Against Torture. Isn't it strange that they are involved in these situations if they profess to be against torture?
One of the Australians released from Guantanamo has been compensated by the Australian Government for his time in captivity and is currently taking legal action against the Egyptian authorities for compensation for the torture he suffered at their hands prior to transfer.
Despite torture being illegal:
Now I realise that those 81 governments couldn't possibly include the US ..... or could it?
Come on guys, let's at least agree that torture, justified or not, effective or not, is taking place in the 'War on Terror'. :asian:
It's because of what Britain has done in the past that we can see what should be done, I've never said we haven't done things we should be deeply ashamed of. However some of those things we have done have proved that torture doesn't work, I'm not saying it because I think it doesn't work, I've see it and know it doesn't.
What I and others are saying that we should be in the moral right, that we should try to act honourably, it's not an ideal world but the lord knows we can still try to make it better and not worse. or are we saying all those fine martial arts tenets are only for Dojos/dojangs and not to be taken into real life?
What I and others are saying that we should be in the moral right, that we should try to act honourably, it's not an ideal world but the lord knows we can still try to make it better and not worse. or are we saying all those fine martial arts tenets are only for Dojos/dojangs and not to be taken into real life?
I am not disagreeing with what you are saying. It's just that some folk are just not up to admitting that torture is still currently being utilised, or at the very least, sanctioned, by the Coalition forces, in places such as Poland, Egypt and even Gitmo.
Here is an excellent article on torture. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/torture/#DefTor Apologies in advance for its length. :asian:
WC_lun
Senior Master
I'm not argueing at all that torture isn't being done in "the war on terror." I'm saying there has to be a line drawn on what you will and will not do. Our laws says torture is not to be done. No exceptions. if you torture, you are a criminal. It also doesn't take a perfect individual to not torture. it takes someone with a base knowledge of the difference between wrong and right and just a modecum of human decency. Stop pretending that torture is anything other than what it is.
Bob, per your quote in your point number 3, Obama was not killed, hiding behind a woman or otherwise.
Bob, per your quote in your point number 3, Obama was not killed, hiding behind a woman or otherwise.
Initial comments indicated he was. They've since changed the details, at least 2-3 times by my count.
As to treaties, since when does the US let a little thing like a treaty get in it's way? Just ask the Seneca, Sioux, Lakota and Apache what value the US puts on treaties.
As to treaties, since when does the US let a little thing like a treaty get in it's way? Just ask the Seneca, Sioux, Lakota and Apache what value the US puts on treaties.
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