big fighters winning?

[oddball]

This is kind of odd in my head, probably becuase I don't exactly know what I'm asking... but, do most people assume that in a contest between a larger and smaller fighter, the larger one will win? I sometimes work on this assumption.

Are larger people stronger, do they take hits better, etc. etc.? What IS the advantage of being bigger than opponent?

 

[Hand Sword]

This is kind of odd in my head, probably becuase I don't exactly know what I'm asking... but, do most people assume that in a contest between a larger and smaller fighter, the larger one will win? I sometimes work on this assumption.

Are larger people stronger, do they take hits better, etc. etc.? What IS the advantage of being bigger than opponent?

In general, from my experience, the average person will think that way. I can't count how many times I've heard "Look at him! He's Jacked! Boy, I wouldn't want to mess with him!" obviously connecting the largeness of muscles, and bodybuilding, to fighting ability. Nothing wrong with that assumption from you, with regards to training. If you can achieve the ability to "hang" with the big, bad meanies, that means you're developing good technique, and you'll do fine against the average ones. (Most likely, for real, they will be bigger than you anyway) As to being stronger, larger people are not always. I'd put miss fitness against any 300 lb McDonalds eater any day, in overall, pound for pound strength. Taking hits better, again, depends. Some people, irregardless of size, have "glass jaws". The advantages/disadvantages also depend on the "big" person too. A strong, fast, inshape, Big wrestler? A large boxer? A nautral "big" with no training at all? Depends. In general, all things being equal, interms of technique, personality, mind set, etc.. The bigger one will win, falling back to their brute strength and power, which the smaller one doesn't have.

 

[Carol]

Larger people can be stronger and more muscular. They can also be taller. There is more inertia and the center of gravity is different. The physics are different. Force=Mass x Acceleration. If thrown at you, a golf ball would hurt more than a tennis ball. They are similar in size but one ways noticeably more than the other.

Smaller people can be more of a challenge to teach. A guy that is 6 feet tall and 200 pounds isn't unusually large, but he generally doesn't have to worry about defending himeself against anyone 20 percent taller and nearly double his height. Not all martial arts teachers are experienced at teaching effective countering to such a disparity in size.

Whether in a ring or on the street IMO the person that will win is likely going to be the one that is the best trained and best prepared.

 

[mrhnau]

This is kind of odd in my head, probably becuase I don't exactly know what I'm asking... but, do most people assume that in a contest between a larger and smaller fighter, the larger one will win? I sometimes work on this assumption.

Are larger people stronger, do they take hits better, etc. etc.? What IS the advantage of being bigger than opponent?

I think Carol covered alot of it very well. There is also an issue of reach. Also, the taller you are, you are likely to have a few inches advantage in reach.

If all things are equal (non-physical things such as training, skill, etc), then the bigger/stronger/faster will win. however, things are almost never equal There have occassionally been exhibitions between massive wrestlers and smaller professional boxers. More often than not, the smaller boxers win. Why? More often than not, skill and training.

I do think Hand Sword had some good points. Often, the psychological effect of things can change things. Intimidation can be significant.

 

[King]

Hmm, good question. I've always struggled with this myself. When I started training I was around 210lbs, I learned how to hit using my body weight. In 6 months I dropped down to 150lbs training like a mad man wearing 20-30lbs weight vest still hitting just as hard. So I had no trouble going toe to toe with taller 200lbs+ guys until one of them picked me up and smashed me into a chainlink fence. That's when I realized weight matters. The shock of being effortlessly picked up got to me. So I gained 20lbs back just to be able to hold my ground against bigger opponents.

Ability wise I'd have to go with Carol's statement, "whether in a ring or on the street IMO the person that will win is likely going to be the one that is the best trained and best prepared". I'll say it's always the better trained person that has an advantage. But two people with the same skill but different weight and height... Well you can't blame me for rooting for the stronger guy.

 

[The Kidd]

I think as a society we are conditioned to think bigger is better in regards to fighting. Like as already been said that is not always so, and I think the more you are aroung MA you can see the differences between how good someone is and ignore the initial siza factor.

 

[bydand]

To start off with a bit of background. I'm 6'2" tall and 225#, long reach and average strength for my size, legs are way above average because I climb ladders all day. My brother is 5'9", maybe 145# soaking wet, average reach, uncommonly strong.

Size wise, I can usually go anywhere and not get bothered at all, where he sometimes has people who think they can push a bit. Ability wise, fighting ability wise, I wouldn't jump him with a baseball bat personally. Now I've never been mistaken for a choir boy and tend to be a bit "unpolished" shall we say, so it isn't like I'm just a big wimp either. Pure size can be an advantage, but it has far less impact than attitude and training, and that is from a personal knowledge. Sure me being bigger helps some, but it boils down to the intangibles; spirit, attitude, confidence, and training.

 

[CoryKS]

My school hosted a kickboxing tournament a while back. I had just started training and didn't have a lot of experience with the environment, so at the start of each match I picked the winners based on their size and relative condition of musculature. I was wrong every. single. time. The funniest one was a match between this really skinny tall guy and a medium size guy with gym-rat muscles. The tall guy just stayed back and kicked the guy in the face until he fell down.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

while it is true that a skilled smaller fighter can beat a less skilled larger fighter (and thank the gods for that at my wee little 150 pounds in high school).

between two fighters of equal skill, i'm betting on the big guy.

 

[Steel Tiger]

while it is true that a skilled smaller fighter can beat a less skilled larger fighter (and thank the gods for that at my wee little 150 pounds in high school).

between two fighters of equal skill, i'm betting on the big guy.

My friends and I have a saying,

"First rule of martial arts, big guy always wins."

Its a bit of a joke really. Of course, all other things being equal it probably true.

 

[Blindside]

There is a reason for weight divisions in combative sports.

Lamont

 

[Grenadier]

Assuming equal velocities and acceleration, larger muscles propelling a more massive object are going to have a greater effect than smaller muscles propelling a less massive object.

Also, bigger, more muscular people, are going to be able to take a punch better than smaller, less muscular people, assuming all other things are equal.

Those are the rules of physics. However, those need not be a hard-cast set of rules, since anyone can work on making his punches more accurate, better timed, and practiced in good combinations, in addition to many other things.

Technique, conditioning, and experience can certainly equalize things, or even tilt things in favor of the smaller person, but by how much? Unfortuantely, we don't have much of a chance to study things in advance on many occasions and have to find out the hard way.

 

[charyuop]

Once I had problems to do a technique coz I am the shortest in my dojo and told Sensei that the problem is my size. He strongly disagreed and getting on his knees threw in the air me and my Senpai.
Later on I grabbed the balance of my Senpai and had him lower down before doing the technique and Sensei asked me...who is bigger now?
The thing Sensei keeps telling us is that if we carry out our techniques correctly we can defeat stronger people, but if we don't do them correctly we end up fighting on a pure Strength Vs Strength match and there if you are not stronger than the opponent you have lost even before starting.

There are many ways to fight, you can block a punch or deflect it, you can step on the side or enter the opponent. None of these are correct or incorrect and all of them can be effective. It is up to the intelligence of the fighter to realize what type of fight to carry on according to the opponent and from there trying to do the techniques well reach the victory, no matter what size.
True in case of equal skills size will matter, but we are not Gods and we do make mistakes, so do opponents...moreover even if bigger and as skilled as I am you never know what are the weak points of the opponent, he might suffer Vs shorter people.

 

[shrek]

Once I had problems to do a technique coz I am the shortest in my dojo and told Sensei that the problem is my size. He strongly disagreed and getting on his knees threw in the air me and my Senpai.
Later on I grabbed the balance of my Senpai and had him lower down before doing the technique and Sensei asked me...who is bigger now?
The thing Sensei keeps telling us is that if we carry out our techniques correctly we can defeat stronger people, but if we don't do them correctly we end up fighting on a pure Strength Vs Strength match and there if you are not stronger than the opponent you have lost even before starting.

There are many ways to fight, you can block a punch or deflect it, you can step on the side or enter the opponent. None of these are correct or incorrect and all of them can be effective. It is up to the intelligence of the fighter to realize what type of fight to carry on according to the opponent and from there trying to do the techniques well reach the victory, no matter what size.
True in case of equal skills size will matter, but we are not Gods and we do make mistakes, so do opponents...moreover even if bigger and as skilled as I am you never know what are the weak points of the opponent, he might suffer Vs shorter people.

I remember my first aikido instructor telling me, "You might get surprised by the ability of smaller people to throw you around like a rag doll, but aikido was developed to where the size of the opponent can be his disadvantage. That being said, a large man trained extensively in aikido is VERY effective! Just watch a Steven Seagal movie!"

And a large man can also "muscle-through" a move where a smaller one may not be able to complete it due to the resistance/countermove of the subject...

 

[NDNgirl4ever]

Larger doesn't always equal better. Strength can come in to play sometimes, but I think that it also has to do with techique and timing. If the smaller person has a better techique, better speed, and are more accurate, they may have a chance at winning.

 

[Last Fearner]

To the original question: "do most people assume that in a contest between a larger and smaller fighter, the larger one will win?" I would say that I do not know what "most people assume." I will say that if they assume a larger fighter will win, they would be ignoring some facts as others have pointed out here.

To the second question: "Are larger people stronger, do they take hits better, etc. etc.?" Obviously, larger people are not always stronger, as shorter, and smaller body framed individuals can pump their muscles more than the natural strength of a big person. As to taking hits, (not referring to "taller" people, but larger by body fat or muscle) the larger person will usually be able to absorb an impact better if it is directed to a "padded" area. Of course, any person of any size is vulnerable to properly delivered techniques to unprotected vital areas - so, in this regard, larger people can be hurt and defeated just as easily.

The one assumption that it seems many are making here, and I question if this is really true, is that when skill is equal, the larger person has an advantage. It might be difficult to find an example that we can verify where two fighters of different size have "exactly equal" skill. Yet, it is my contention that Martial Art skills are designed to advantage the person using physics, laws of nature, and their opponent's size and strength against them.

Two people who have no particular skills would be fighting with brute force, thus the size and strength and conditioning would be the main three factors. Even "timing," "strategy," and "out-smarting" your opponent would have to be ruled out as they are skills. If the fighters have no skills, then they are fighting on brute force along.

On the other hand, if the fighters are of the exact same size, strength, and condition, plus they are exactly equal in skill, then it might boil down to who makes the first mistake. Even if one fighter is bigger and stronger, but they are of exactly equal skill, I do not believe the larger or stronger fighter has an advantage. Skill is designed to counter that advantage, and the loser would then be the one who makes the first fatal mistake.

Applying my Martial Art training to the logical conclusion, I feel the larger person is always at a disadvantage when skills are equal. Now, this is contingent on the degree of skill. If both fighters' skills are equal but not of the highest quality, then the larger person might find it easier to get past the smaller person's defenses. Not to say the larger person can't win, but they must rely on the smaller person making a mistake, and if the skills are less than a mastery, this is more likely. I believe that a smaller person who has mastered their martial art skill will be equal in all ways to another master of equal skill, and the smaller size might give them an advantage.

This brings me to another interesting point.

Smaller people can be more of a challenge to teach.

Hi Carol! I am not contending what you said here. I am just sharing my own personal experiences when teaching. Over the years, I have typically found that the larger and stronger students are more challenging to teach because they are accustomed to using their size, strength, and brute force to get things done in their life. If something doesn't work - - bash it. If it doesn't fit - - force it! The Martial Art skills that I teach them, contradict this logic, and I find them resisting the change. Smaller and weaker students have little choice but to apply the laws of nature, and physics to accomplish the task.

If I ask a larger student to move some bricks outside of the Dojang, he will likely see how many he can carry in each hand. The smaller student will go find a wheel barrow, and move them all at once with little effort!

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Hi Carol! I am not contending what you said here. I am just sharing my own personal experiences when teaching. Over the years, I have typically found that the larger and stronger students are more challenging to teach because they are accustomed to using their size, strength, and brute force to get things done in their life. If something doesn't work - - bash it. If it doesn't fit - - force it! The Martial Art skills that I teach them, contradict this logic, and I find them resisting the change. Smaller and weaker students have little choice but to apply the laws of nature, and physics to accomplish the task.

If I ask a larger student to move some bricks outside of the Dojang, he will likely see how many he can carry in each hand. The smaller student will go find a wheel barrow, and move them all at once with little effort!

CM D.J. Eisenhart

With respects to Carol, a great MT member and Moderator, I agree with what you are saying. I'm short (but stocky) and I had to learn "proper" technique in order to make something work because I couldn't "muscle it" - while those "naturals" rarely stayed past red belt and could have used far more wisdom in their instruction than they got. As a result of the effects of my size upon my techniques, I became the person folks in the dojang and dojo came to when they needed to know the specifics of how to correctly apply a technique. Still, the larger, gifted athletes were more of a challenge to a wise instructor - who could see past early successes to the "complete picture".

I wish my primary TKD instructor had had your views on the subject. He concentrated on the "gifted" athletes and left plodders like myself in the corner. If I could go back in time, I would tell him that the measure of a great instructor is not whether they could make the gifted better, but whether they could make the disadvanteged good.

If I were to go back into TKD, I'd pay more for your attitude than I would for a WTF Master who had a dozen Olympic medalists to his or her credit.

 

[shrek]

Simply put...would you pick a fight with "The Undertaker" from WWE? Not unless you had a baseball bat and a few friends, right? Size, speed, and strength are advantages that play a huge part in a fight. You can increase your odds through training, experience and skill but they will still be difficult to overcome. A guy that's 6" or more shorter than his opponent is going to have a rough day if that opponent is anywhere near his level of fighting ability. Basic physics are hard to beat....

 

[snapmule]

My size is an advantage in appearance. Most people dont mess with me. Im 275 and 5' 11" and built like a linebacker. I hear everyone around me saying the same thing: "I wouldnt wanna mess with him". People are always trying to befriend me thinking Im someone they want to hang around because of my size. On the flipside, I used to get challenged alot by insecure a$$#oles who figured they could get respect by beating me in a fight or making me back down.

Size is good for intimidation and psychology as well as strength and leverage. But alot of the best fighters are much smaller. What they lack in strenghth and mass they make up for in speed, agility and mobility. But it's all based on fight experience, strategy and training. Ive seen some big overweight boxers who move very well and very quickly. Size shouldnt be an issue. That's why I started with boxing before getting back into martial arts.

 

[MetalStorm]

I usually automatically think the bigger someone is the more tough they are too even though I should know better from some of the brawls I have seen over the years.

Look at the last UFC as well, couture and sylvia, couture was a lot smaller in size, quite a bit shorter, and a hell of a lot older and he just schooled sylvia the entire match. Same results can happen anywhere, ring, street, whatever.

In the ring I guess it doesnt make as much difference since you obviously have some training since you are in the ring but on the street I think being smaller might even be a bit of advantage, Most people seem to underestimate smaller guys/gals and they probably wont have their guard up as much if they are picking a fight with you as opposed to someone with another 50 pounds on them.

Just what I seem to have noticed growing up anyways.