Between Judo and Wrestling for police..

[drop bear]

The thing is, from researching that, it appear they do what most LE agencies want. They do not only want the training for their officers they often want the following as well.

1. A course where they can have selected personnel trained as instructors. In this way you are not locked in to waiting for someone else to have a course or have to potentially pay a fee up front to have the company in question show up. They also often like this because different States and LE Agencies may have different Laws or policies regarding UoF. Having your own instructor allows you to tailor the training to these requirements.

2. They also often look for legal expert testimony, from the Company for the purposes of Law Suits. This is rarely supplied by companies that simply train their personnel in combatives BUT it is not uncommon in terms of those who have provided "train the trainer" seminars, so long as the in house instructor has proper documentation for the training itself and the reports etc reflect that the combative system itself was used properly.

It's all about liability.

Because it costs more for the criminal to be hurt that the officer. Making the officer disposable.


And that infuriates me.

Also that industry trainers are making a living perpetuating this belief.

 

[Juany118]

Because it costs more for the criminal to be hurt that the officer. Making the officer disposable.


And that infuriates me.

Also that industry trainers are making a living perpetuating this belief.

First I screwed up the first line of the post you quoted. It should read "don't do what most..." not simply "do what..."

Oh I agree that budgets are part of it BUT some of the systems actually have good rates to train an instructor though. Example you can get quality "train the trainer" training for $400-$1200, the higher end for systems that may have multiple courses like PPC and Gracie. This pays dividends in the long run though, if you keep the certs current. New officers get trained on your agencies schedule, you can even use it for revenue generation by hosting your own regional Combatives training.

I do agree with you however regarding the companies/systems that do NOT offer "train the trainer" courses. Gracie, PPCT and LOCKUP all offer these "train the trainer" courses.

 

[Juany118]

Mostly for me it is making them realise what does what. So if I am hanging off an arm the can grab the other arm and hang off that. It dosent matter which lock at that point....

Or. I have a guy wrapped up. He needs to know how to take a guy down from there.

Or if I am on the ground then the other guy needs to protect me from interference.

They need to know that if I go in they go in and not stand around like an idiot waiting to see what happens.

Here is L.o.c.k.u.p, it's started in the US but has spread. Also I noted check with your State here in the US because if you are in CT (as an example) the only authorized system is L.o.c.k.u.p. Sorry for the language in this one not being english

and here is another

As for PPCT one of the things you have to understand is that different systems teach differently. Many of the drills I have seen in PPCT are just that drills. They are there to teach you the various places and ways one can strike and type give an example of flowing one into the other but that flow is just that only one example.

I am a bigger fan of L.o.c.k.u.p personally, since it will puit you in realistic scenarios, right down to a mud bog if that is what the field is at the time of training, but PPCT actually does work. I think the problem with PPCT is that it is taught in a way that someone familiar with traditional martial arts training can follow, if you aren't familiar with the concept of a drill in MA training though, you will see the drill not as simply a series of potential steps designed to show targets and avenues of attacks but rather as a set sequence that must be followed and that does create issues with someone unfamiliar with Martial Arts training. Most PPCT instructors in my area are also Martial Arts instructors and I think they forget to keep this in mind when teaching and explain "you do not have to do a brachial stun, followed by a strike to the bicept, followed by a double knee strike followed by a head take down. This is just to illustrate how to apply the techniques and a possible combination." Hell a properly applied brachial stun will drop someone with one shot. This is just one example...

The only other thing I will say is that, in reality, getting a guy "wrapped up" in police work is not high on the lists of priorities , especially on the ground. That creates issues with disengagement, weapon retention and access. It really sucks when you are down wrapping a guy up and then realize "oh look, he had a weapon and it's draw now." Additionally the system has to acknowledge the reality of police work in most communities. I work in a small city of 25,000 people with a crime rate per capita a kin to cities like Philadelphia and Chicago. In that environment we will often be running 4 officers (splitting the town into 4 zones) and 1 supervisor. As such you often may find yourself in a violent confrontation where there is no one to protect you from interference for some minutes depending on where the back up unit(s) are coming from. As such the ground is not a place you want to go. Take the bad guy there but you need to stay up if at all possible so you can disengage if necessary. This is pretty common outside of the larger cities in the USA.

 

[drop bear]

Here is L.o.c.k.u.p, it's started in the US but has spread. Also I noted check with your State here in the US because if you are in CT (as an example) the only authorized system is L.o.c.k.u.p. Sorry for the language in this one not being english

and here is another

As for PPCT one of the things you have to understand is that different systems teach differently. Many of the drills I have seen in PPCT are just that drills. They are there to teach you the various places and ways one can strike and type give an example of flowing one into the other but that flow is just that only one example.

I am a bigger fan of L.o.c.k.u.p personally, since it will puit you in realistic scenarios, right down to a mud bog if that is what the field is at the time of training, but PPCT actually does work. I think the problem with PPCT is that it is taught in a way that someone familiar with traditional martial arts training can follow, if you aren't familiar with the concept of a drill in MA training though, you will see the drill not as simply a series of potential steps designed to show targets and avenues of attacks but rather as a set sequence that must be followed and that does create issues with someone unfamiliar with Martial Arts training. Most PPCT instructors in my area are also Martial Arts instructors and I think they forget to keep this in mind when teaching and explain "you do not have to do a brachial stun, followed by a strike to the bicept, followed by a double knee strike followed by a head take down. This is just to illustrate how to apply the techniques and a possible combination." Hell a properly applied brachial stun will drop someone with one shot. This is just one example...

The only other thing I will say is that, in reality, getting a guy "wrapped up" in police work is not high on the lists of priorities , especially on the ground. That creates issues with disengagement, weapon retention and access. It really sucks when you are down wrapping a guy up and then realize "oh look, he had a weapon and it's draw now." Additionally the system has to acknowledge the reality of police work in most communities. I work in a small city of 25,000 people with a crime rate per capita a kin to cities like Philadelphia and Chicago. In that environment we will often be running 4 officers (splitting the town into 4 zones) and 1 supervisor. As such you often may find yourself in a violent confrontation where there is no one to protect you from interference for some minutes depending on where the back up unit(s) are coming from. As such the ground is not a place you want to go. Take the bad guy there but you need to stay up if at all possible so you can disengage if necessary. This is pretty common outside of the larger cities in the USA.

There is a lot wrong with that. But it will take me a while to get it properly nutted out.

Otherwise environmental concerns has been the least of my worries. There is potentially things you would not do in some environments. But for the most part I have never even noticed that it was especially dark.

If it is slippery you are probably going *** up. Such is life. I don't think there is really slippery surface fighting.

Boggy or muddy is not nice but does not change what you would do.

It seems like time wasted to ad an element of realism that does not really make a difference.

You get this a lot with the rsbd guys. Who do moves and techniques in drills that are not really reasonable on a guy who is resisting and then talk realism by putting on camo pants.

It would physically have to change the tactics or techniques to have merit.

So for example I will hold a guy down like this.

Rather than this.

Because it rips up your knees on concrete. But that is a comfort issue. You can get p fine at any time by just sticking your knee into their face and standing up.

 

[drop bear]

See I don't get why people are trading off simple back takes and fighting from safe positions for things like outer wrist lock throws. And punching guys in the bicept.

You can't safely fire off wristlocks from inside the pocket. I have tried it and have scars from it. And it is pretty self explanatory.

If you wind up here.

Or here.

You are probably going to get punched in the mouth. It does not take a tactical genius to figure that out.

So don't fight from there. Especially if you have limited training.

 

[drop bear]

Additionally the system has to acknowledge the reality of police work in most communities. I work in a small city of 25,000 people with a crime rate per capita a kin to cities like Philadelphia and Chicago. In that environment we will often be running 4 officers (splitting the town into 4 zones) and 1 supervisor. As such you often may find yourself in a violent confrontation where there is no one to protect you from interference for some minutes depending on where the back up unit(s) are coming from. As such the ground is not a place you want to go. Take the bad guy there but you need to stay up if at all possible so you can disengage if necessary.

The system is then perpetuating the reality that you are disposable and nobody will take responsibility when you fail.

There is no system that will let you safely and professionally manhandle some random on the street on your own.

And so long as the trainer makes money and goes home safely to his family he won't care.

 

[Juany118]

There is a lot wrong with that. But it will take me a while to get it properly nutted out.

Otherwise environmental concerns has been the least of my worries. There is potentially things you would not do in some environments. But for the most part I have never even noticed that it was especially dark.

If it is slippery you are probably going *** up. Such is life. I don't think there is really slippery surface fighting.

Boggy or muddy is not nice but does not change what you would do.

It seems like time wasted to ad an element of realism that does not really make a difference.

On the last bit it is not wasted time, "you train like you fight" is a saying from every military in the world. Why do soldiers crawl through dirt and mud in the army? So it does not cause them to hesitate in a real situation, so you practice "yeah I may slip but that can not slow me down", yeah I may be getting muddy but I can't recoil. I need to run, hop a simulated fence like I would in a foot pursuit and THEN if I get the suspect corned be ready to fight regardless of the grading of the terrain. This is the stuff I was talking about in another thread when I spoke about the difference between the ring and real life (at least my real life.) Simply saying "such is life" and actually acting like that in real life are two very different things believe me. I will provide an example of this at the end.

Also LOCKDOWN involves not just low light conditions but bizarre light and sound conditions. Things look VERY different and can even be disorienting, in a real fight when you are on the "wrong side" of a spot light, take down lights, the red and blues and potentially a siren still blaring. Heck the CIA used similar conditions as part of "enhanced interrogations", now imagine fighting in them.

You get this a lot with the rsbd guys. Who do moves and techniques in drills that are not really reasonable on a guy who is resisting and then talk realism by putting on camo pants.

It would physically have to change the tactics or techniques to have merit.

So for example I will hold a guy down like this.

Rather than this.

Because it rips up your knees on concrete. But that is a comfort issue. You can get p fine at any time by just sticking your knee into their face and standing up.

And both of these are actually try to never ever in 100 million years do them as a Police officer. In the second video I show you will actually see an officer on his back with the bad guy on top of him (bad guy in white t-shirt). The officer then reverses it and begins to stand because in both of these positions the bad guy both A. prevents you from getting to tools (in terms of my duty belt, taser, OC spray, spare mags and spare cuffs) and B. can access tools. As such the officer who uses these is making a cardinal error. If the officer is forced into this situation they want to rapidly swap to either an arm or leg control technique that does not have you in a position where you can't easily disengage (if necessary) access your tools and prevent access to them by the bad guy. btw concrete ripping up your knees? that is one thing I will admit you have to deal with in order to protect your tools.

As for an example...true story and it brings just about everything above into the pile.

1. It is after midnight and I see a guy I have been looking for on a warrant. I call it out over the in car radio. It is an urban environment with those crappy yellowish street lamps, half of them burned out, no such lights in the alleys. Also row homes with only occassional breeze ways you can cut through. Also this section of town dates back to pre-Civil War so you have these kind of fences all over.

2. I get out and start chatting him up because I am a bigger fan of Dr. George Thompson - Verbal Judo Tactics & Techniques than fighting, it actually works more than you would think. I move to take him into custody and he played along until just that "right time" when he could make a break. Off to the races. My portable radio is "bonking" out because we were in a transition mode to new digital frequencies and a tiny switch got trip (f-you Motorola) so no one knows the foot pursuit has started.

3. down the street into the alley. cut through a breezeway. He hops a fence like that. I try to cut the pie to cut him off and do the same "ahead of him". Ooops the crap light, it was a gate and moved. luckily it hit my left cheek when I landed and didn't give me a prostate exam.

4. I finally catch up with him a block and a half away from my car. During this time my back up has found my car, my one pair of cuffs in the middle of the street but since the radio is bonking out is now running through the alley I was in yelling "JUANY!!!!!!!!!!!" trying to find me.

5. Now back then I was operating under my Aikido training that included ground techniques from Jujutsu. The SOB got my OC canister out. Luckily at the time we were issued the foam and I managed to knock it away and it just splattered on my cheek. if it was "spray" I would have been done. I then flipped him onto his belly and did what I should have done in the first place, slammed my knee into the small of his back to keep him down, but that transition from a BAD position to this freed an arm to come back and elbow me in the nuts before I got him under control and my back up found me.

The above is how a real world LE violent encounter happens. training inside on mats doesn't prepare you for this.

 

[Juany118]

The system is then perpetuating the reality that you are disposable and nobody will take responsibility when you fail.

There is no system that will let you safely and professionally manhandle some random on the street on your own.

And so long as the trainer makes money and goes home safely to his family he won't care.

The system isn't. Not even particular departments. My department is very big on real life training (it likely helps one of our Officers is actually a Nationally recognized trainer in SWAT tactics and Combatives) such as extensive low light engagement with firearms as well as the rest etc. so we don't need to spend money on outside people. However when the issue does arise the Departments do the best they can with the money they have. However in terms of the various courses I have seen outside of my Department I would have to say that L.O.C.K.U.P, with the real world simulation training is what I would recommend for departments looking for outside trainers because it integrates environmental factors and that is insanely important.

 

[drop bear]

On the last bit it is not wasted time, "you train like you fight" is a saying from every military in the world. Why do soldiers crawl through dirt and mud in the army? So it does not cause them to hesitate in a real situation, so you practice "yeah I may slip but that can not slow me down", yeah I may be getting muddy but I can't recoil. I need to run, hop a simulated fence like I would in a foot pursuit and THEN if I get the suspect corned be ready to fight regardless of the grading of the terrain. This is the stuff I was talking about in another thread when I spoke about the difference between the ring and real life (at least my real life.) Simply saying "such is life" and actually acting like that in real life are two very different things believe me. I will provide an example of this at the end.

Also LOCKDOWN involves not just low light conditions but bizarre light and sound conditions. Things look VERY different and can even be disorienting, in a real fight when you are on the "wrong side" of a spot light, take down lights, the red and blues and potentially a siren still blaring. Heck the CIA used similar conditions as part of "enhanced interrogations", now imagine fighting in them.



And both of these are actually try to never ever in 100 million years do them as a Police officer. In the second video I show you will actually see an officer on his back with the bad guy on top of him (bad guy in white t-shirt). The officer then reverses it and begins to stand because in both of these positions the bad guy both A. prevents you from getting to tools (in terms of my duty belt, taser, OC spray, spare mags and spare cuffs) and B. can access tools. As such the officer who uses these is making a cardinal error. If the officer is forced into this situation they want to rapidly swap to either an arm or leg control technique that does not have you in a position where you can't easily disengage (if necessary) access your tools and prevent access to them by the bad guy. btw concrete ripping up your knees? that is one thing I will admit you have to deal with in order to protect your tools.

As for an example...true story and it brings just about everything above into the pile.

1. It is after midnight and I see a guy I have been looking for on a warrant. I call it out over the in car radio. It is an urban environment with those crappy yellowish street lamps, half of them burned out, no such lights in the alleys. Also row homes with only occassional breeze ways you can cut through. Also this section of town dates back to pre-Civil War so you have these kind of fences all over.

2. I get out and start chatting him up because I am a bigger fan of Dr. George Thompson - Verbal Judo Tactics & Techniques than fighting, it actually works more than you would think. I move to take him into custody and he played along until just that "right time" when he could make a break. Off to the races. My portable radio is "bonking" out because we were in a transition mode to new digital frequencies and a tiny switch got trip (f-you Motorola) so no one knows the foot pursuit has started.

3. down the street into the alley. cut through a breezeway. He hops a fence like that. I try to cut the pie to cut him off and do the same "ahead of him". Ooops the crap light, it was a gate and moved. luckily it hit my left cheek when I landed and didn't give me a prostate exam.

4. I finally catch up with him a block and a half away from my car. During this time my back up has found my car, my one pair of cuffs in the middle of the street but since the radio is bonking out is now running through the alley I was in yelling "JUANY!!!!!!!!!!!" trying to find me.

5. Now back then I was operating under my Aikido training that included ground techniques from Jujutsu. The SOB got my OC canister out. Luckily at the time we were issued the foam and I managed to knock it away and it just splattered on my cheek. if it was "spray" I would have been done. I then flipped him onto his belly and did what I should have done in the first place, slammed my knee into the small of his back to keep him down, but that transition from a BAD position to this freed an arm to come back and elbow me in the nuts before I got him under control and my back up found me.

The above is how a real world LE violent encounter happens. training inside on mats doesn't prepare you for this.

1. I worked in night clubs which are as bad for disorienting sound and lighting as you can get.

2. Training realistic techniques live on a mat is more honest than drilling unrealistic techniques in a dark room.

Everybody has had a keystone cops violent encounter.

 

[drop bear]

The system isn't. Not even particular departments. My department is very big on real life training (it likely helps one of our Officers is actually a Nationally recognized trainer in SWAT tactics and Combatives) such as extensive low light engagement with firearms as well as the rest etc. so we don't need to spend money on outside people. However when the issue does arise the Departments do the best they can with the money they have. However in terms of the various courses I have seen outside of my Department I would have to say that L.O.C.K.U.P, with the real world simulation training is what I would recommend for departments looking for outside trainers because it integrates environmental factors and that is insanely important.

But can't put two guys in a car.

 

[Juany118]

But can't put two guys in a car.

First none of the below is to say that your methods do not work for your purposes. I think you simply don't understand that there are factors in US LE that you do not understand.

First simply because a guy left the LAPD and their SWAT team and came to ours because his wife wanted to move home and raise her kids in her home State has nothing to do with the minimum manpower # the PD operates with. (we max at 6 and a supervisor). PS he wishes he was still back with the LAPD, he just cared more for his wife and kids because the schools they go to are better, they have a house with a yard etc.

Regardless 90% of the Police departments in the US can't have more than one per car. It is not like TV which, if I understand from your other posts would be your only experience with US Law Enforcement (u used kilometers a few times elsewhere).

As for unrealistic I can tell you from 18 years of experience one thing the techniques you showed as examples of what to do are the last resort want to avoid at all costs for any law enforcement officer due to the fact that unlike other Countries most PDs have all of the officer's gear on the belt around their waist and the techniques you illustrated fail to take this into account completely.

Also after over 18 years on the jobs the techniques shown in that video actually do work. You have to remember something... yeah the "bad guy" isn't going all out, but neither is the officer. Also note that they actually train to only apply said grappling maneuvers after striking, you just can't be punching the crap out of instructors.

Also just focusing on the lights and noise of a squad car vs a club ignores everything else I mentioned. If your sirens are still on that is because you had a vehicle pursuit. That pursuit in and of itself created the fight or flight response that you will get in a fight because each intersection could result in a pile up. Police Combatives need to account for that. Also training so you know what it's like starting the fight after hopping fences and running for a block or too is also very important because before you go hands on you will already be fatigued, possibly even with minor injuries. If you can't deal with those in training you sure as heck wont be able to do it on the street so you need to "train like you fight" not only so you know what can happen but so that you can say to yourself "yeah I can do that".

 

[Langenschwert]

Wow, that sounds like a major pain from a curriculum perspective. Judo is simply not comprehensive enough to deal with that, nor was it ever meant to be. I understand that the Tokyo police use Judo, but as a Judoka myself I suspect it is heavily adapted. There's not much need for kuzushi when you can use a good strike to soften the suspect up if needed. The pins used in Judo will probably be useful, but the standard clinch (lapel and elbow) is not, as you can get fed punches or gods forbid get stabbed. Much better for that is the medieval arm clinch, which is bicep and elbow. It has the added advantage of working well whether there's a jacket or not, and allows good visibility too. It breaks structure quite well by pushing the bicep and pulling at the wrist.

But that's just a technique, not a curriculum.

Certainly Judo has a lot of good things that can be adapted by LEOs, and so does wrestling. Neither will be a panacea for a lack of a good police combatives program.

 

[drop bear]

Regardless 90% of the Police departments in the US can't have more than one per car. It is not like TV which, if I understand from your other posts would be your only experience with US Law Enforcement (u used kilometers a few times elsewhere).

My experience is what I have seen works and what doesn't in Australia. Two people in a car works. One person is a failure waiting to happen.

So why can't they put two people in a car?


I assume the factors are someone wants to save a buck and someone else is lying about the job a single person can reasonably do.

 

[drop bear]

As for unrealistic I can tell you from 18 years of experience one thing the techniques you showed as examples of what to do are the last resort want to avoid at all costs for any law enforcement officer due to the fact that unlike other Countries most PDs have all of the officer's gear on the belt around their waist and the techniques you illustrated fail to take this into account completely.

What other countries have police that don't have belt kit?

Ok Australia and England are moving towards vests. And where as I have fought guys in belt kits baton handcuffs no gun. I haven't used. Vest.

And where I can show you numerous examples of police wrestling in belt kit. You will struggle to show one cop anywhere pulling off an outer wristlock throw.

Good job America is the only country where police have belt kit.

So you will have to rely on this assertion based on nothing that it works. Which is the same assertion I got from DT instructors. Also based on nothing. And especially a cop on his own because two people in a car is some sort of science fiction apparently.

Now for me if was putting together a system for police I would be very wary of relying on techniques that have no actual basis in real life. Regards as to whether they drill the thing in the dark.

There is this saying. Train how you fight.

So if police fights look like wrestling and not arm punches outer wristlocks and some of that other never used stuff in lockup. I would train something that looks like the sort of fight they would get in to.

 

[Juany118]

What other countries have police that don't have belt kit?

Ok Australia and England are moving towards vests. And where as I have fought guys in belt kits baton handcuffs no gun. I haven't used. Vest.

And where I can show you numerous examples of police wrestling in belt kit. You will struggle to show one cop anywhere pulling off an outer wristlock throw.

Good job America is the only country where police have belt kit.

So you will have to rely on this assertion based on nothing that it works. Which is the same assertion I got from DT instructors. Also based on nothing. And especially a cop on his own because two people in a car is some sort of science fiction apparently.

Now for me if was putting together a system for police I would be very wary of relying on techniques that have no actual basis in real life. Regards as to whether they drill the thing in the dark.

There is this saying. Train how you fight.

So if police fights look like wrestling and not arm punches outer wristlocks and some of that other never used stuff in lockup. I would train something that looks like the sort of fight they would get in to.

There is a difference regarding the amount of belt kit, in comparison to other countries, you noted some of them. Also even other places that use belts don't have half the stuff on their belts. On my belt I have the following things.
Right hip...
1.S&W M&P
Across the front...
2. OC spray
3. Rescue knife (seat belt cutter/window punch)
4. Second pair of cuffs
5. 2 spare magazines
6. Taser.
Left hip
7. The radio
Across back
8. Flash light
9. Glove pouch
10. Hand cuffs
11. Baton.

I think you missed my point. The point was the techniques you were championing are bad for Law Enforcement in terms of access and retention of gear. I was being generous and assumed that you didn't know that equipment access and retention needs to be part of the curriculum and as you are apparently not a LEO gave you the benefit of the doubt that the cops you see don't have a lot of gear on their belt.

So I stand corrected. You simply think that your idea has to be correct because, well it's your idea, regardless of centuries of military and LE success in terms of "train like you fight" and your complete ignorance in terms of the requirements of LE combatives.

As for your snarky comment regarding one man patrol vehicles here is an article specifically to that point and arguing how it has to change, since clearly you won't take the word of any poster that contradicts your TV and YouTube driven vision of LE deployment Two-Officer Cars: The Buddy System.

One of the key paragraphs

Very few American law enforcement agencies deploy two officers per vehicle. The reasons for having their officers ride solo are easily understood. Most agencies have too few officers to even consider two-officer patrols. Others who have enough sworn personnel to field two-officer units say they need their officers to ride solo to cover the jurisdiction.

And of course the biggest argument larger agencies have against two-officer patrols is cost. Thanks to a study of the San Diego Police Department that was conducted in the mid-1970s that said the SDPD spent more than 80% more money to field two-officer patrols than single-officer patrols, it is widely believed that running two-officer patrols is much more expensive than single officer patrols

Now it also notes it is not Universal, LA and NYPD run two man cars but the vast majority of jurisdictions don't run two man cars in the US. Not Science fiction, it is simple fact. By the way I would LOVE it if it was otherwise but facts are facts, even if they contradict your uninformed opinion.

 

[Buka]

On the last bit it is not wasted time, "you train like you fight" is a saying from every military in the world. Why do soldiers crawl through dirt and mud in the army? So it does not cause them to hesitate in a real situation, so you practice "yeah I may slip but that can not slow me down", yeah I may be getting muddy but I can't recoil. I need to run, hop a simulated fence like I would in a foot pursuit and THEN if I get the suspect corned be ready to fight regardless of the grading of the terrain. This is the stuff I was talking about in another thread when I spoke about the difference between the ring and real life (at least my real life.) Simply saying "such is life" and actually acting like that in real life are two very different things believe me. I will provide an example of this at the end.

Also LOCKDOWN involves not just low light conditions but bizarre light and sound conditions. Things look VERY different and can even be disorienting, in a real fight when you are on the "wrong side" of a spot light, take down lights, the red and blues and potentially a siren still blaring. Heck the CIA used similar conditions as part of "enhanced interrogations", now imagine fighting in them.



And both of these are actually try to never ever in 100 million years do them as a Police officer. In the second video I show you will actually see an officer on his back with the bad guy on top of him (bad guy in white t-shirt). The officer then reverses it and begins to stand because in both of these positions the bad guy both A. prevents you from getting to tools (in terms of my duty belt, taser, OC spray, spare mags and spare cuffs) and B. can access tools. As such the officer who uses these is making a cardinal error. If the officer is forced into this situation they want to rapidly swap to either an arm or leg control technique that does not have you in a position where you can't easily disengage (if necessary) access your tools and prevent access to them by the bad guy. btw concrete ripping up your knees? that is one thing I will admit you have to deal with in order to protect your tools.

As for an example...true story and it brings just about everything above into the pile.

1. It is after midnight and I see a guy I have been looking for on a warrant. I call it out over the in car radio. It is an urban environment with those crappy yellowish street lamps, half of them burned out, no such lights in the alleys. Also row homes with only occassional breeze ways you can cut through. Also this section of town dates back to pre-Civil War so you have these kind of fences all over.

2. I get out and start chatting him up because I am a bigger fan of Dr. George Thompson - Verbal Judo Tactics & Techniques than fighting, it actually works more than you would think. I move to take him into custody and he played along until just that "right time" when he could make a break. Off to the races. My portable radio is "bonking" out because we were in a transition mode to new digital frequencies and a tiny switch got trip (f-you Motorola) so no one knows the foot pursuit has started.

3. down the street into the alley. cut through a breezeway. He hops a fence like that. I try to cut the pie to cut him off and do the same "ahead of him". Ooops the crap light, it was a gate and moved. luckily it hit my left cheek when I landed and didn't give me a prostate exam.

4. I finally catch up with him a block and a half away from my car. During this time my back up has found my car, my one pair of cuffs in the middle of the street but since the radio is bonking out is now running through the alley I was in yelling "JUANY!!!!!!!!!!!" trying to find me.

5. Now back then I was operating under my Aikido training that included ground techniques from Jujutsu. The SOB got my OC canister out. Luckily at the time we were issued the foam and I managed to knock it away and it just splattered on my cheek. if it was "spray" I would have been done. I then flipped him onto his belly and did what I should have done in the first place, slammed my knee into the small of his back to keep him down, but that transition from a BAD position to this freed an arm to come back and elbow me in the nuts before I got him under control and my back up found me.

The above is how a real world LE violent encounter happens. training inside on mats doesn't prepare you for this.

I so like this post. Stay safe, bro.

 

[Juany118]

I so like this post. Stay safe, bro.

Thanks on the first, always on the last, the wife would kick my *** otherwise lol.

 

[drop bear]

There is a difference regarding the amount of belt kit, in comparison to other countries, you noted some of them. Also even other places that use belts don't have half the stuff on their belts. On my belt I have the following things.
Right hip...
1.S&W M&P
Across the front...
2. OC spray
3. Rescue knife (seat belt cutter/window punch)
4. Second pair of cuffs
5. 2 spare magazines
6. Taser.
Left hip
7. The radio
Across back
8. Flash light
9. Glove pouch
10. Hand cuffs
11. Baton.

I think you missed my point. The point was the techniques you were championing are bad for Law Enforcement in terms of access and retention of gear. I was being generous and assumed that you didn't know that equipment access and retention needs to be part of the curriculum and as you are apparently not a LEO gave you the benefit of the doubt that the cops you see don't have a lot of gear on their belt.

So what happens here if i say, just google Australian police belt and the cops i see do have about the same amount of gear.

But there is a much more nuanced debate about gear retention. Which is about positional advantage.

 

[drop bear]

Now it also notes it is not Universal, LA and NYPD run two man cars but the vast majority of jurisdictions don't run two man cars in the US. Not Science fiction, it is simple fact. By the way I would LOVE it if it was otherwise but facts are facts, even if they contradict your uninformed opinion.

My opinion is departments are too cheap to do it. How does yours differ?

 

[Juany118]

My opinion is departments are too cheap to do it. How does yours differ?

You called the two man car "science fiction" which infers at best that the one man car is the exception rather than the rule. Regardless of the reasons as to why it's that way (and I agree it's financial and sucks) the fact the one man car is the rule has to be accounted for in training.

As for your prior response.

Even you admitted that in Australia they are moving to vests and secondly I did Google for photos and I failed to find one where an officer, even one as slim as I, lacked open real estate on the front of their belt. Does this mean that there isn't someone there like me who lacks real estate? No but that really isn't the point, the point is your ignorance of the effects of the belt on LE Combatives.

The nuance you seem to think exists in the debate really doesn't. You can of course debate it in terms of other occupations, unarmed bouncers as an example but in terms of armed LE it is different. Reasons.

1. It is not just about retention, it is about access as well.

2. A officer has to be prepared to disengage. Maybe the suspect had a concealed weapon that they have managed to get? Maybe their buddies are now closing and you have to address multiple threats? There are other circumstances but the maneuvers you seem to champion are simply bad for a dynamic real life fight where you may have to disengage and be mobile very quickly.

Officers do need to know how to ground fight however the primary reason is not to get someone in a BJJ submission hold like the two photos you showed, it's so you can get OUT of them if the bad guy tries to get you into one or if you are forced to, because the bad guy is close to overwhelming you and the only way to possibly avoid it is to use a non-preferred technique.

3. Yes retention is a part of it as well, why?

---a. Because until you get into that "position of advantage" the suspect can access your tools. If he starts grabbing for one you have to then basically have to stop going for that position to address the fact the bad guy is going for one of your tools. So why bother going for it in the first place?
---b. If you manage to get the suspect into an inferior position there are few positions of advantage where the bad guy can't get at something unless the bad guy is flat on his face. Maybe it's the baton or flashlight on your back? The gun on the right hip or the taser on the opposite side front? If the bad guy is flat on his face there is no reason to lay on him as in your second photo, locking up his rear legs, a knee to the kidney, small of the back, or between the shoulder blades and a wrist/elbow lock, do the job and allow for 1, 2 and 3.

I get it... for you the techniques you posted photos of work, but even the guy I work with who had trained in BJJ for the last 15 years would never use something like that as a first option. Btw, all the Combatives I know, LOCKUP, PPCT and Gracie Survival Tactics have ground fighting in their curriculum but the techniques you are a fan of are taught as last resort kind of measures. I would suspect that people creating programs for LE, using decades of experience, plus all the other cops I know, would have a better idea as to what is preferred tactics in a LE setting.

My opinion is departments are too cheap to do it. How does yours differ?

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