Belt Testing advice

[JR 137]

I failed my first kyu test in NGA. I forgot the name of one of the 10 techniques I was testing on. I wonder if that failure contributed to me being so over-prepared for every other test.

You were failed for not knowing the name of one technique? That's pretty intense. If the evaluation of my tests were that stringent, I'd have failed a couple.

 

[Headhunter]

Seems the op isn't coming back shame I'd like to have known what was actually said

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You were failed for not knowing the name of one technique? That's pretty intense. If the evaluation of my tests were that stringent, I'd have failed a couple.

Part of the testing format in NGA, traditionally, is that the student has to name each technique and then demonstrate it. Remembering 10 techniques is pretty easy, until you're in a test. After that failure, I started creating mnemonics to remember them, and I use those mnemonics even today to remember what's in each Classical Set.

1st Classical Set: Once, James Arness Made Us Laugh While Eating Fried Cabbage. (1st Wrist, Jacket Grab, Arm Bar, Mugger's Throw, Unbendable Arm, Leg Sweep, Whip Throw, Elbow Chop, Come-Along)

I left out the Cabbage on my first test.

 

[PhotonGuy]

JR 137 thank you for your very informative post. As it is a long post you took the time to explain all sorts of stuff. Thank you. Anyway as your post is very long and you say much in it, I will respond to what you have to say bit by bit in further posts.

 

[Jenna]

Part of the testing format in NGA, traditionally, is that the student has to name each technique and then demonstrate it. Remembering 10 techniques is pretty easy, until you're in a test. After that failure, I started creating mnemonics to remember them, and I use those mnemonics even today to remember what's in each Classical Set.

1st Classical Set: Once, James Arness Made Us Laugh While Eating Fried Cabbage. (1st Wrist, Jacket Grab, Arm Bar, Mugger's Throw, Unbendable Arm, Leg Sweep, Whip Throw, Elbow Chop, Come-Along)

I left out the Cabbage on my first test.

Tradition has it the green belt was metaphor for overcoming the struggle with leafy veggies..

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Tradition has it the green belt was metaphor for overcoming the struggle with leafy veggies..

Which means a red belt has something to do with surviving Attack of the Killer Tomatoes?

 

[PhotonGuy]

We may have had this discussion before, or maybe I had it with someone else here; I don't remember...

I'm currently a 3rd kyu at my school, therefore I can't say firsthand what happens at black belt testing. At any rank, testing is by invitation only. If you have to ask, the answer is no.

Tests are on the calendar for every other month or so. Sometimes there's a couple people who'll test (adults and/or kids), sometimes no one's promoting. Scheduling them, even if no one's testing keeps my CI organized and keeps him from forgetting. Adults and kids test separately.

I see. So how does a student know if he or she is testing? Do all the students who are testing have their names up on a board or does the instructor privately tell each individual student whose testing that they're testing?

In my Karate school tests are held about every four months. It is up to the student if he or she wants to test although they might recommend against it if they feel you're not ready. Since its a test there is of course the possibility of failing and a student who tests when they recommend against it most likely will fail. Some people on this forum have called my Karate school a McDojo since students can test whenever they want but the fact of the matter is they can't test whenever they want. They only run tests about every four months so obviously a student can only test when they're running a test.

I haven't seen anyone fail, but I've heard about it happening at our school in the past. I guess you could say it's your chance to fail more than it's your chance to pass, in a way. People have failed for freezing and not being able to be "brought back" mentally. People have failed by giving up, not taking it seriously, and/or other disrespectful acts. In my CI's almost 30 years running a dojo, he's had a handful of people fail kyu tests. Testing isn't some elaborate thing; it's basically a regular class, only the intensity is much higher and the people testing (other students not testing are there too, as it's during regular class time) are put a step in front of everyone else, and they're always paired up with black belts who'll push them harder than the norm. Much harder. Kyu testing is usually done before black belts class, so as the student advances, they stay for black belts class to spar with them too. The higher the kyu student gets, the longer they stay in that class.

I guess you can say it's more of a demonstration that an actual test, but it's a demonstration where you're pushed pretty hard and pushed outside your comfort zone. Give it all you've got, don't panic and don't do anything disrespectful, and you're good.

If there is the possibility of passing and the possibility of failing than its a test not a demonstration even if its demonstration like in how its conducted. Some of the people on this forum have mentioned that at their schools they tell you when you're ready and you then display all the material you've learned strikes, kicks, forms, ect. and you're promoted. There is not the possibility of failing so therefore it would be a demonstration not a test.

The way I see it, the point of testing a student where there's the possibility of failing even if the student looks ready from the viewpoint of the instructors is that with a test, it tests the student's ability to perform under pressure. There is a difference in how a student performs in an ordinary class and how a student performs when they know they're being tested.

Black belt testing is done by our founder in NYC. Our CI can promote to some black belt ranks, but he'd rather his teacher do it. Black belt testing is a multi day thing. Students routinely fail. I've been told out of 40 or so testing, 5-10 won't pass. They won't be called out publicly, but at the end of a session they'll be pulled aside and told to try again at another time.

My CI has never had anyone fail a black belt test. He only sends people he knows are fully ready. When a CI's students regularly fail black belt tests, it's more of a reflection on the CI than the students. CI's are held accountable for their students. There has been "Why are you sending unprepared students to test?" type questions asked of CIs. Nakamura won't promote people to black belt ranks unless he genuinely feels they're worthy of it. It's an actual test, not a demonstration. I guess if the student is well prepared, one could consider it a demonstration.

At the end of the day, kyu testing is more of a formality and preparation for black belt testing, whereas black belt testing is all truly testing.

My former organization worked the same way, except kyu testing was more formal, or better yet there was more sizzle, but honestly there was less steak. My 1st dan test was very intense and was a true test. If you weren't up to the standards, you didn't pass.

So the way you describe it, you make it sound like going from brown to black is a big major step (assuming brown is the belt right before black), that its not the same as going up a rank in any of the previous ranks. That its proportionally a much bigger step than any of the previous rank advancements.

I'd rather have to be invited rather than everyone is tested. There's no sense in setting up people to fail when the CI knows they're not going to pass.

I've never failed an MA test. I've honestly always been well prepared. If I didn't feel like I deserved to test, I'd tell the CI. Hasn't happened yet, but it's not impossible.

I see what you mean. You might not always be ready but if you're not ready I think the important thing is that you know exactly why you're not ready, so you know what you mostly need to work on.

 

[JR 137]

I see. So how does a student know if he or she is testing? Do all the students who are testing have their names up on a board or does the instructor privately tell each individual student whose testing that they're testing?

In my Karate school tests are held about every four months. It is up to the student if he or she wants to test although they might recommend against it if they feel you're not ready. Since its a test there is of course the possibility of failing and a student who tests when they recommend against it most likely will fail. Some people on this forum have called my Karate school a McDojo since students can test whenever they want but the fact of the matter is they can't test whenever they want. They only run tests about every four months so obviously a student can only test when they're running a test.


If there is the possibility of passing and the possibility of failing than its a test not a demonstration even if its demonstration like in how its conducted. Some of the people on this forum have mentioned that at their schools they tell you when you're ready and you then display all the material you've learned strikes, kicks, forms, ect. and you're promoted. There is not the possibility of failing so therefore it would be a demonstration not a test.

The way I see it, the point of testing a student where there's the possibility of failing even if the student looks ready from the viewpoint of the instructors is that with a test, it tests the student's ability to perform under pressure. There is a difference in how a student performs in an ordinary class and how a student performs when they know they're being tested.


So the way you describe it, you make it sound like going from brown to black is a big major step (assuming brown is the belt right before black), that its not the same as going up a rank in any of the previous ranks. That its proportionally a much bigger step than any of the previous rank advancements.



I see what you mean. You might not always be ready but if you're not ready I think the important thing is that you know exactly why you're not ready, so you know what you mostly need to work on.

My CI privately informs us when he wants to test us. No names on the wall, but he'll mention our names later on when he's finishing class and going over upcoming event dates that are on our whiteboard. It'll be something like "Promotion testing is next Wednesday during adult class. X, Y, and Z are testing for their next ranks, so please come and support them if you can." Nothing more is made out of it than that. Some students will tell you if they can or can't make it and wish you luck. We're a small and tight knit dojo.

Advanced brown belt is the last kyu belt. From
what I've heard, black belt testing is a big step up from previous tests. Each dan grade test is a big step up from the previous dan grade too. Kyu tests run from an hour to almost 2 hours as one progresses. But there's only so much a student can be tested on in that time period. Black belt testing is held over multiple sessions. I think four 2 hour evening sessions and a half day session. The student is tested on the entire syllabus, and each session is a different part - basics, kata, other standardized stuff, and sparring is the final half day session. There's a few days between individual sessions. Students who aren't going to pass are allegedly pulled aside privately after each session and told why and encouraged to try again at a later date.

Some people don't agree that black belt testing should be a big step up from kyu testing. I look at it as a quality control measure, but I understand their viewpoint.

What you say about anyone who's eligible to test can try makes sense after you put it in those terms. I've never heard the rationale behind anyone who's eligible can sign up to test before. As long as they've earned the promotion, there's nothing McDojo about it (not that I think students at your place didn't earn it).

Too many people throw the McDojo term around way too often. They're the people who only see one thing and made up their minds. I've seen the organization I'm in get bashed a few times on other forums. I guess it's because we're no longer bare knuckle/knockdown, and some dojos have a large number of kids. In my situation and yours, I say F them.

 

[Tez3]

So the way you describe it, you make it sound like going from brown to black is a big major step (assuming brown is the belt right before black), that its not the same as going up a rank in any of the previous ranks. That its proportionally a much bigger step than any of the previous rank advancements

Wado Ryu has three brown belts so rather than go straight from brown to black it's a progression of ever harder testing. Where I trained the senior belts had to grade on a course so the grading lasted all weekend ( from Friday eve to Sunday eve) basically. As you needed to make arrangements to go you could say when you wanted to grade but it had to be with your instructor's agreement obviously. Average time for white to black was four to five years with many choosing to take longer.

 

[JR 137]

Wado Ryu has three brown belts so rather than go straight from brown to black it's a progression of ever harder testing. Where I trained the senior belts had to grade on a course so the grading lasted all weekend ( from Friday eve to Sunday eve) basically. As you needed to make arrangements to go you could say when you wanted to grade but it had to be with your instructor's agreement obviously. Average time for white to black was four to five years with many choosing to take longer.

With 3 brown belt ranks, is there any new material at the last one?

My former organization had 3 brown belt ranks too. The first 2 were like other kyu ranks, with new material taught. The 3rd brown belt rank didn't have any new material; it was refining all previous 10 kyu ranks material and preparation for shodan. It was 6 months and however many classes minimum before being eligible to test for shodan.

My current organization only has 2 brown belt ranks, and new material is taught at both. However, the 2nd brown belt rank (1st kyu) doesn't have much new material, and is I think 14 months minimum and a set number of classes attended.

Looking at how both schools handle the overall brown belt rank, there's really no difference; one uses 2 belts and the other uses 3 for the same time period and material. On paper I like the 3 belts setup better, as the final step seemed more focused, but I haven't been through the 2 brown belt setup yet. My opinion could change after the fact.

From what it appears to me, other schools use the 3 belts system, instead of calling it advanced brown belt (they sometimes wear a black belt without a dan stripe) they call it shodan-ho and will be tested again for full shodan.

 

[Tez3]

With 3 brown belt ranks, is there any new material at the last one?

We did as well as having to go over everything we'd already done. Our belts were brown, then a brown with white stripe the last was brown with black stripe, each was a separate testing. We never did double gradings for any belt. this is much the same as ours. Wado Ryu Karate Club - Grading Syllabus

 

[PhotonGuy]

Wado Ryu has three brown belts so rather than go straight from brown to black it's a progression of ever harder testing. Where I trained the senior belts had to grade on a course so the grading lasted all weekend ( from Friday eve to Sunday eve) basically. As you needed to make arrangements to go you could say when you wanted to grade but it had to be with your instructor's agreement obviously. Average time for white to black was four to five years with many choosing to take longer.

Well yes its common for dojos to sometimes have multiple ranks per belt, particularly with the more advanced belts, but what Im talking about is when you go from the highest rank before black belt to first degree black belt. All the Karate schools I've seen use a Kyu system where the lower the number the higher ranking the Kyu. You might start at 9th Kyu, than eventually get promoted to 8th Kyu, than 7th Kyu and so forth. Therefore 1st Kyu would be the highest rank before black belt or 1st Dan as its called. When you're a first degree black belt you're 1st Dan and then 2nd degree would be 2nd Dan and so forth. No doubt many of the people on this forum are familiar with this system but Im just pointing it out as I've never seen any Karate school use a different system although other styles of martial arts might use different systems or might not even have ranking systems. Anyway, 1st Kyu is usually a brown belt of some sort so when I mention brown belt that's what Im talking about. When I talk about going from brown to black Im talking about going from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan. Should going from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan be such a big step? Should it be proportionally much bigger than going from, say, 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu? That is what Im getting at. I hope this explanation helps to avoid confusion.

 

[Tez3]

No doubt many of the people on this forum are familiar with this system

Is the Pope Catholic?

I hope this explanation helps to avoid confusion

No, it actually made things confusing, it was fine before your 'explanation'.

 

[PhotonGuy]

My CI privately informs us when he wants to test us. No names on the wall, but he'll mention our names later on when he's finishing class and going over upcoming event dates that are on our whiteboard. It'll be something like "Promotion testing is next Wednesday during adult class. X, Y, and Z are testing for their next ranks, so please come and support them if you can." Nothing more is made out of it than that. Some students will tell you if they can or can't make it and wish you luck. We're a small and tight knit dojo.

I see, so the way you make it sound is that if you're testing the CI will tell you (CI I assume stands for Chief Instructor) and if the CI doesn't tell you you're testing or doesn't say anything to you about it that means you aren't testing, so there is no reason to ask if you're testing or not. So if I was training at your dojo and a test was coming up and your CI didn't say anything to me about testing it would mean I wasn't testing so I would not ask the CI if I was testing or if I could test but what I might do is I might ask what I need to do to be able to test. If I wasn't testing it would be for a reason(s) so I might ask the CI what I need to work on, what I need to fix, so that hopefully I could test the next time.

Advanced brown belt is the last kyu belt. From
what I've heard, black belt testing is a big step up from previous tests. Each dan grade test is a big step up from the previous dan grade too. Kyu tests run from an hour to almost 2 hours as one progresses. But there's only so much a student can be tested on in that time period. Black belt testing is held over multiple sessions. I think four 2 hour evening sessions and a half day session. The student is tested on the entire syllabus, and each session is a different part - basics, kata, other standardized stuff, and sparring is the final half day session. There's a few days between individual sessions. Students who aren't going to pass are allegedly pulled aside privately after each session and told why and encouraged to try again at a later date.

Some people don't agree that black belt testing should be a big step up from kyu testing. I look at it as a quality control measure, but I understand their viewpoint.

I tend to be on the same page as those who don't think testing for a first degree black belt should be a big step up from kyu testing, at least not for somebody whose 1st kyu. By the time you're 1st kyu you should've developed the knowledge and skill to prepare you for the 1st dan test. Making it a big jump from 1st kyu to 1st dan I see as an imbalance. The whole idea of going through all various kyu ranks from 9th kyu on up is to prepare you for 1st dan. Obviously going from 9th kyu (white belt) straight to 1st dan would be a tremendous jump and that's why you don't go from 9th kyu straight to 1st dan. You go through all the various kyu levels before you test for 1st dan. That's why by the time you're 1st kyu you should be prepared to test for 1st dan and it shouldn't be such a big step, at least it shouldn't be much bigger than the previous steps.

Put it this way. You're an academic school teacher. In academics a 70-79 is a C, an 80-89 is a B, and a 90-100 is an A. (For simplicity
I am not going to talk about bonus points where you can get scores higher than 100.) The point is this, for each of the letter grades there is a ten point range. Now, lets say that they made it so that in order to get an A you had to score a 98 or higher and so 80-97 was a B. Would you agree with such a system? In some ways that's what you can say its like when its a big jump from 1st kyu to 1st dan.

What you say about anyone who's eligible to test can try makes sense after you put it in those terms. I've never heard the rationale behind anyone who's eligible can sign up to test before. As long as they've earned the promotion, there's nothing McDojo about it (not that I think students at your place didn't earn it).

Too many people throw the McDojo term around way too often. They're the people who only see one thing and made up their minds. I've seen the organization I'm in get bashed a few times on other forums. I guess it's because we're no longer bare knuckle/knockdown, and some dojos have a large number of kids. In my situation and yours, I say F them.

In my dojo if a student wants to spend the time and money to test that's their choice. Testing doesn't cost that much but it takes time and skill to test a student so you will have to pay a small fee. The higher the rank you're testing for the more it costs to test because theres more material that has to be covered. Earlier on, and I believe this was before you joined MT, some of the people here were criticizing the method used in my dojo and saying its the kind of method a McDojo would use. I did take it personally since in doing so they were calling my dojo a McDojo and they were putting down my sensei when they were criticizing his methods.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Is the Pope Catholic?

Yes

No, it actually made things confusing, it was fine before your 'explanation'.

So what are you confused about?

 

[Tez3]

Yes




So what are you confused about?

Mmm I see.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well yes its common for dojos to sometimes have multiple ranks per belt, particularly with the more advanced belts, but what Im talking about is when you go from the highest rank before black belt to first degree black belt. All the Karate schools I've seen use a Kyu system where the lower the number the higher ranking the Kyu. You might start at 9th Kyu, than eventually get promoted to 8th Kyu, than 7th Kyu and so forth. Therefore 1st Kyu would be the highest rank before black belt or 1st Dan as its called. When you're a first degree black belt you're 1st Dan and then 2nd degree would be 2nd Dan and so forth. No doubt many of the people on this forum are familiar with this system but Im just pointing it out as I've never seen any Karate school use a different system although other styles of martial arts might use different systems or might not even have ranking systems. Anyway, 1st Kyu is usually a brown belt of some sort so when I mention brown belt that's what Im talking about. When I talk about going from brown to black Im talking about going from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan. Should going from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan be such a big step? Should it be proportionally much bigger than going from, say, 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu? That is what Im getting at. I hope this explanation helps to avoid confusion.

In the arts I have significant experience with, there's more than a nomenclature difference between "dan" and "kyu". There's an expectation difference. There's a difference in perception of what the person is capable of. Given those differences, there probably should be a significant difference in the testing at that level, as well. If an art has fewer of those differences, there should probably be a proportionately lesser degree of difference in the testing. That reduced difference could come by reducing the expectations at shodan, or by increasing the expectations of (and leading to) ikkyu.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Put it this way. You're an academic school teacher. In academics a 70-79 is a C, an 80-89 is a B, and a 90-100 is an A. (For simplicity
I am not going to talk about bonus points where you can get scores higher than 100.) The point is this, for each of the letter grades there is a ten point range. Now, lets say that they made it so that in order to get an A you had to score a 98 or higher and so 80-97 was a B. Would you agree with such a system? In some ways that's what you can say its like when its a big jump from 1st kyu to 1st dan.

I don't think this is equivalent. Those are scores for a given test, rather than different tests. I consider it more like finals in grade school/high school, versus finals in college/university. And there's often a higher "score" required to pass for BB, so it's the difference between a "C" in grade school and a "B" in college.

Should it be that different? Again, it depends upon the difference in expectations of the levels. Within the curriculum I use, there's less of a difference - I've lowered the shodan expectation some (no instructor training requirements) and raised the expectations at all kyu levels. Basically, I'm spreading out the testing more throughout the kyu ranks, compared to what I experienced.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my dojo if a student wants to spend the time and money to test that's their choice. Testing doesn't cost that much but it takes time and skill to test a student so you will have to pay a small fee. The higher the rank you're testing for the more it costs to test because theres more material that has to be covered. Earlier on, and I believe this was before you joined MT, some of the people here were criticizing the method used in my dojo and saying its the kind of method a McDojo would use. I did take it personally since in doing so they were calling my dojo a McDojo and they were putting down my sensei when they were criticizing his methods.

It's one method a McDojo might use, but that's not an indictment of the approach. There are many that are open to abuse. There's a balance every school/instructor/association has to try to strike: fairness to the student, control/availability of testing, respect for the time and effort of the instructor, and where to place the cost (monthly vs. at testing). There are motivational, personal, cultural, and business reasons why each approach might be appropriate.

 

[PhotonGuy]

In the arts I have significant experience with, there's more than a nomenclature difference between "dan" and "kyu". There's an expectation difference. There's a difference in perception of what the person is capable of. Given those differences, there probably should be a significant difference in the testing at that level, as well. If an art has fewer of those differences, there should probably be a proportionately lesser degree of difference in the testing. That reduced difference could come by reducing the expectations at shodan, or by increasing the expectations of (and leading to) ikkyu.

Im really late with this reply, I've been a bit lazy but here goes. From my own observations, in most systems its common for a student who is of the ranks 3rd kyu-1st kyu to be wearing a brown belt of some sort. Some schools might differentiate between the three kyu ranks with stripes on the belt some schools might not, every school has their own system but often a student who is of those ranks is wearing a brown belt. Anyway, the way I see it is that a student who is of the ranks 3rd kyu-1st kyu is being groomed for 1st dan and this is especially true for a student who is 1st kyu. I certainly would not be in favor of reducing the standards for 1st dan or Shodan as its called (1st degree black belt) to do so would be to water down the rank and water down the art which is if you ask me going in the direction of the so called McDojo. As for increasing the standards for the 3rd kyu-1st kyu ranks, especially 1st kyu that sounds like a good idea. Especially since, as I said earlier in this post, a student who is within those ranks is being groomed for 1st dan.

I don't think this is equivalent. Those are scores for a given test, rather than different tests. I consider it more like finals in grade school/high school, versus finals in college/university. And there's often a higher "score" required to pass for BB, so it's the difference between a "C" in grade school and a "B" in college.

Should it be that different? Again, it depends upon the difference in expectations of the levels. Within the curriculum I use, there's less of a difference - I've lowered the shodan expectation some (no instructor training requirements) and raised the expectations at all kyu levels. Basically, I'm spreading out the testing more throughout the kyu ranks, compared to what I experienced.

The letter grade analogy of A vs B might not be the best analogy. My point was that there is a ten point difference between an A and a B, a ten point difference between a B and a C and so forth. A better analogy might be history classes. Lets say a student in high school or college is taking history classes. In their first year or first semester they would take History I, than after that they would take History II then History III and finally History IV. History IV is not necessarily any harder than History III, II or I, its just sequential.

Anyway its late to say this but it would still be nice to get a response from JR 137. He often says some very intelligent, insightful, and useful stuff.