Belt Preferance

JR 137

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Jobo is neither a troll nor dumb. He is an evil clown!

I agree with him about half the time. And sometimes find his comments really funny. And almost always he's goading somebody. Gotta love it.

The comment on this thread that caught my eye was his remark in response to Rough Rider's statement about belts: They provide a quick and easy way for the instructor to know what a student has already been taught, and what he or she needs to learn next.

Jobo
replied: ...so they are just for the benefit of instructors with poor memories?

To be honest, that's good enough for me. I teach Ving Tsun and Escrima, and don't use belts, but we do have testing and ranks. And, even with my small group, that's exactly why I like testing. Otherwise I'd never remember exactly what each student had learned. If you want to cover a curriculum without gaps, a system in which you test for grade can be really helpful. And if you taught a big group, I can see how rank insignias would help too.

Now as to whether your mum would have time to sew them on is another issue. ;)

Regarding teaching big groups and @jobo

There's a great reason for belts in the organization I'm in...

Seido Juku has dojos on every continent except Antarctica, and over 40,000 students total. If a student goes to another dojo for a visit (and taking a class), there's no question what that student's rank is, what they know (or at least are supposed to know), etc. The student lines up at their appropriate place and is treated as everyone else of that rank. If I decide to go to our founder's dojo in NYC, he knows exactly where I am in the syllabus and doesn't have to stop and ask me if I've been taught a specific kata, technique, etc.; in this regard it's like I've been his student since day one. People from other dojos within our organization come to our dojo frequently to take a class. Everyone knows what that person knows and doesn't know (syllabus-wise). That doesn't mean "I'm a black belt and he's a green belt, so I'll have no problem beating him down" but it does give you a very superficial sense of what to expect.

Then there's mass workouts, clinics, gatherings, etc. where people from different dojos can quite easily be separated into groups. Some tweaking may be necessary, but very little.

Our honbu (headquarters dojo) has a couple hundred students, with many instructors teaching different classes. If you always go to the same classes with the same teachers, no big deal. But if you decide to go on a different night/time than usual, the teacher who's perhaps never met you can easily tell what your responsible for knowing and can easily make sure he/she's teaching you appropriate stuff.

In a small dojo such as the one I train at with 40 students total and 1 person teaching 90% of the classes, it would be relatively easy to forgo belts. Once we stepped out of the dojo and into an affiliated one, what I said above makes a ton of sense and makes life easier for the teachers and students.
 

Rough Rider

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so they are just for the benefit of instructors with poor memories?
There are over 100 students at my dojang. We are open 6 days a week and everybody is allowed unlimited training. Most instructors cannot be there every day because they have other jobs. So,yeah, I guess they just have poor memory if they don't know that a particular student should be working on Taegeuk O-Jang without seeing the blue belt around his waist.
 

Rough Rider

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really, you went to that much trouble to have a,stripe added, what benefits do you get from the stripe?
As I stated, I did it to have a back-up belt. I have 2 gear bags (a large one that can hold my sparring gear and a smaller one that I use on days that I'm not sparring.) Sometimes when I switch bags, I forget my belt. Now I keep the back-up in my car so I don't have to drive home for the belt. I couldn't wear the old belt with one stripe since I'm supposed to have two now. My school is strict about uniforms. The embroidered black belts are not a personal choice, they are required. Also, it wasn't "that much trouble" to have it done.
 

Gerry Seymour

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really, you went to that much trouble to have a,stripe added, what benefits do you get from the stripe?
to be fair when i was in the,scouts i used to get my merit badges stitched on my sleave, but i didn't get many so it,didn't really take a lot of,effort for me mam to sew them
You make it sound like some huge level of effort. I'll warrant it took less effort than @drop bear's fantastic (or hideous - take your choice) tie-dyed dogi. Probably no more than having a patch sewn on a sleeve, or the hemming I had done on a pair of suit pants. In each case, the benefit was minimal, as was the effort.
 

jobo

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As I stated, I did it to have a back-up belt. I have 2 gear bags (a large one that can hold my sparring gear and a smaller one that I use on days that I'm not sparring.) Sometimes when I switch bags, I forget my belt. Now I keep the back-up in my car so I don't have to drive home for the belt. I couldn't wear the old belt with one stripe since I'm supposed to have two now. My school is strict about uniforms. The embroidered black belts are not a personal choice, they are required. Also, it wasn't "that much trouble" to have it done.
well can't argue with that, out of interest what would they do if you turned up in the wrong black belt, make you train on your own, throw rotten fruit at you, look slightly dis please , ?
 

Gerry Seymour

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As I stated, I did it to have a back-up belt. I have 2 gear bags (a large one that can hold my sparring gear and a smaller one that I use on days that I'm not sparring.) Sometimes when I switch bags, I forget my belt. Now I keep the back-up in my car so I don't have to drive home for the belt. I couldn't wear the old belt with one stripe since I'm supposed to have two now. My school is strict about uniforms. The embroidered black belts are not a personal choice, they are required. Also, it wasn't "that much trouble" to have it done.
I had a back-up. I never got around to getting stripes on it (which caused some confusion at one school I visited). Then my lab-pit mix ate one end of it, which made the lack of stripes rather academic. Maybe she agrees with Jobo on this.
 

Gerry Seymour

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well can't argue with that, out of interest what would they do if you turned up in the wrong black belt, make you train on your own, throw rotten fruit at you, look slightly dis please , ?
IMO, most places, if the students know you, they'll make fun of you like any friends when you show up with something they know is slightly off. I wore my brown belt one time after I'd been promoted (odd, I don't recall why - I presume I forgot my BB). I also trained in a white belt a couple of times, when I got into town too late to grab my bag, and had to borrow a spare uniform at the school. In both cases, people I outranked (but the belt I had on did not), gave me ludicrous orders. "Brown belt, go mop the walls!" Other than giving them something to have fun with, it mattered to them not at all.
 

jobo

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You make it sound like some huge level of effort. I'll warrant it took less effort than @drop bear's fantastic (or hideous - take your choice) tie-dyed dogi. Probably no more than having a patch sewn on a sleeve, or the hemming I had done on a pair of suit pants. In each case, the benefit was minimal, as was the effort.
he went to a professional embroidery expert, that's not the same as sewing your Hem so you don't trip over your own pants.
 

Gerry Seymour

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he went to a professional embroidery expert, that's not the same as sewing your Hem so you don't trip over your own pants.
Taking the pants to an alterations place takes about the same effort as taking a belt to an embroiderer. The pants wouldn't have tripped me, they just wouldn't have looked as good. So, I dropped them off, then picked them up later. I'm guessing that's about what he did with the belt.
 

shihansmurf

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This tread took a rather petulant turn.

I have a couple of neat embroidered belts that some of my students bought me over the years. I have them hanging up in my man cave. I think they look cool.

I don't really see the issue with people wearing whatever they want and is acceptable within their organization. Hell, if I decided one day to start wearing a plaid belt in my family's tartan I would and frankly it would mean the same as any other rank belt. I think we make too much of what is essentially a matter of cosmetics.

In my school I have decoupled rank and authority. The belts signify what a student should know and what performance measures they are consistently hitting. Authority is whoever is teaching and everyone else. This has seemed to help fix most of these issues.

Wear stripes, don't wear stripes. Embroider your belt, don't embroider your belts. Wear sashes, different colored tee shirts to denote rough skill levels, or just work out in gym clothes. Just train. The rest is just silly distractions.

Just my view,
Mark
 

drop bear

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well can't argue with that, out of interest what would they do if you turned up in the wrong black belt, make you train on your own, throw rotten fruit at you, look slightly dis please , ?

If your belt is important then your training is important. If you worked hard for it and deserved it then you should be allowed to appreciate it. Like any achievement.

One of our guys got yelled at for forgetting his blue and throwing on a white.
 

JR 137

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This tread took a rather petulant turn.

I have a couple of neat embroidered belts that some of my students bought me over the years. I have them hanging up in my man cave. I think they look cool.

I don't really see the issue with people wearing whatever they want and is acceptable within their organization. Hell, if I decided one day to start wearing a plaid belt in my family's tartan I would and frankly it would mean the same as any other rank belt. I think we make too much of what is essentially a matter of cosmetics.

In my school I have decoupled rank and authority. The belts signify what a student should know and what performance measures they are consistently hitting. Authority is whoever is teaching and everyone else. This has seemed to help fix most of these issues.

Wear stripes, don't wear stripes. Embroider your belt, don't embroider your belts. Wear sashes, different colored tee shirts to denote rough skill levels, or just work out in gym clothes. Just train. The rest is just silly distractions.

Just my view,
Mark
Exactly. Some people like to be MA fashion police.

Perhaps this is why we have a strict uniform policy - so people don't take it upon themselves to decide what they and subsequently everyone else should be wearing and/or trying to make some sort of stupid individual statement.

We keep it simple - plain white karate gi, organization's kanji on the left chest, organization's logo on the left arm. Wear the belt you were issued; no choice of embroidered or not, language, font, stripes, etc. Just wear it. If you can't handle that, find somewhere else to train. If you want to express yourself through your attire, have fun with "you being you," just "be you" somewhere else.
 

Buka

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You can always have fun being you - with me. Up to green belt you had to wear black gi. From brown to black you could wear whatever the hell you want. Obviously, if you wear something stupid - it won't go well for you. And I'm sure the fashion police would have fits with how we dressed. F the fashion police.

My Black Belts. ladies and gentlemen, every one of them. They went through hell earning the right to wear what they want.

I'm the only one in white. Traditionalist all the way, that's me. :)
BlackBelts.jpg
 

Rough Rider

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ut of interest what would they do if you turned up in the wrong black belt,

A little good-natured teasing and about 25 push-ups. One time I forgot my belt, but my daughter's belt was in my bag. She was a 2nd Dan, but I was a 1st Dan at the time. I found some black tape and covered up 1 stripe. Nobody noticed her name on my belt, or that it was a little small (my daughter is 19, so it's not like I was wearing a little kid belt.)
 

jobo

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Exactly. Some people like to be MA fashion police.

Perhaps this is why we have a strict uniform policy - so people don't take it upon themselves to decide what they and subsequently everyone else should be wearing and/or trying to make some sort of stupid individual statement.

We keep it simple - plain white karate gi, organization's kanji on the left chest, organization's logo on the left arm. Wear the belt you were issued; no choice of embroidered or not, language, font, stripes, etc. Just wear it. If you can't handle that, find somewhere else to train. If you want to express yourself through your attire, have fun with "you being you," just "be you" somewhere else.
it doesn't sound like your group is big on individuality and freedom of expression, yes i think i would be finding a,group a little less obsessive about uniform, with uniform comes uniformity and soon after the right to be an individual is removed,its all a bit big brother or the moonies for me
 
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MA_Student

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You can always have fun being you - with me. Up to green belt you had to wear black gi. From brown to black you could wear whatever the hell you want. Obviously, if you wear something stupid - it won't go well for you. And I'm sure the fashion police would have fits with how we dressed. F the fashion police.

My Black Belts. ladies and gentlemen, every one of them. They went through hell earning the right to wear what they want.

I'm the only one in white. Traditionalist all the way, that's me. :)
View attachment 20981
Most look alright apart from the guy in the flag gi. I always thought those looked stupid. Also is the guy in the front row wearing jeans and a gi jacket?...that's a very odd combo lol
 

jobo

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A little good-natured teasing and about 25 push-ups. One time I forgot my belt, but my daughter's belt was in my bag. She was a 2nd Dan, but I was a 1st Dan at the time. I found some black tape and covered up 1 stripe. Nobody noticed her name on my belt, or that it was a little small (my daughter is 19, so it's not like I was wearing a little kid belt.)
well that's a good thing, those 25 extra push ups might save your life, but really, you do 25 push ups as a punishment,you must be an adult to have a 19 yo , have you no sense of,dignity? id laugh in their face if they said that to me
 

JR 137

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it doesn't sound like your group is big on individuality and freedom of expression, yes i think i would be finding a,group a little less obsessive about uniform, with uniform comes uniformity and soon after the right to be an individual is removed,its all a bit big brother for me
Oh I know! Seido is soooo oppressive!!! No individuality!!! We're all just numbers to them!!!

How about everyone wearing the same thing so everyone's on the same level and there's no "My gi has sooo much more bling than yours!" How about everyone wearing the same thing so people aren't hung up what they're wearing and can just shut up and train?

I don't have anything against what @Buka said and does. I'm not fashion police by any stretch of the imagination. If I was his student, I'd wear a plain gi and be done with it.

The Stars and Stripes Elvis gi (he designed it and paid for those guys like Bill Wallace's gi) that one of Buka's guys is wearing is pretty cool in a comedic way. It's just not for me.
 

MA_Student

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it doesn't sound like your group is big on individuality and freedom of expression, yes i think i would be finding a,group a little less obsessive about uniform, with uniform comes uniformity and soon after the right to be an individual is removed,its all a bit big brother or the moonies for me
Wait so you're going on about freedom of expression yet yet this all started because of you talking crap about people who get their belts embroided hmm...take a minute to think about that
 

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