Belt fees/Promotion fees

[Dirty Dog]

Most of the belts I've used were cotton (maybe all of them), certainly my BB is. I prefer them, too. I prefer the beefy feel of the one I have over some of the less expensive ones, but that's a personal preference.

All our belts are cotton. Personally, I like the Eosin Panther belts with two sided embroidery (I have English on one side an Hangeul on the other), but they're kind of pricey. It's debatable if they're worth it for a belt that'll only be worn a year or so.

 

[JR 137]

The $5 belts that I see are usually made out of cotton. As a matter of fact they might be more than $5 by now, its been awhile since I've bought a standard belt without a uniform so the price might've gone up by then. But from what I know cotton is a good material and my belt has outlasted four or five uniforms including a really good, really expensive Tokaido uniform which Im about to dispose of. But from what I know cotton is quite a durable material for martial arts belts.

There are different grades of cotton and cotton black belts. Some are standard like colored belts, others are much heavier. Some have far more cotton inspire the belt (belt core?) than others.

I've been wearing my standard green belt for almost a year now. It's 100% cotton. It's fine except where I tie it. The core has broken down and it's hard to keep a solid knot. There is a black version of the same belt.

There's a classmate who earned her shodan about a month after I earned my green belt. Her's is 100% cotton too. Due to the thickness/firmness of the core of it, she's just now (about a month or so) able to keep it tied for an entire class.

All cotton doesn't mean it's the same.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

All our belts are cotton. Personally, I like the Eosin Panther belts with two sided embroidery (I have English on one side an Hangeul on the other), but they're kind of pricey. It's debatable if they're worth it for a belt that'll only be worn a year or so.

If it were only being worn that long, I'd prefer not to spend it, though they are nice belts. We don't (usually) do any embroidery. Some of us have embroidered stripes, but most just have sewn-on fabric stripes. And the shodan in the NGAA is the last rank most folks get to. It takes a minimum of 3 years of active teaching (with your own students, so having classes you run not under immediate supervision) to qualify to test for nidan. So, even those who move up will have their shodan for usually 4 or 5 years, minimum.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are different grades of cotton and cotton black belts. Some are standard like colored belts, others are much heavier. Some have far more cotton inspire the belt (belt core?) than others.

I've been wearing my standard green belt for almost a year now. It's 100% cotton. It's fine except where I tie it. The core has broken down and it's hard to keep a solid knot. There is a black version of the same belt.

There's a classmate who earned her shodan about a month after I earned my green belt. Her's is 100% cotton too. Due to the thickness/firmness of the core of it, she's just now (about a month or so) able to keep it tied for an entire class.

All cotton doesn't mean it's the same.

I still can't get my BB to stay tied for an entire class. I think Bujin doesn't put a separate core inside it, it's just multiple folds of the same material, so black all the way. I like the feel, but it may be just a bit too durable. Mind you, they market it as an Aikido belt, so there's probably an expectation it's being worn under hakama, and that binds the knot nicely. Without the hakama, I have to retie at least once every class. With hakama, no issues.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If it were only being worn that long, I'd prefer not to spend it, though they are nice belts. We don't (usually) do any embroidery. Some of us have embroidered stripes, but most just have sewn-on fabric stripes. And the shodan in the NGAA is the last rank most folks get to. It takes a minimum of 3 years of active teaching (with your own students, so having classes you run not under immediate supervision) to qualify to test for nidan. So, even those who move up will have their shodan for usually 4 or 5 years, minimum.

@Mark Lynn, was this another mis-click, or was there something you actually didn't like in this one?

 

[mgotangsoodo]

On the topic of belt/promotion fees, color belt fees are minimal ($25-$30) and mostly cover the price of the belt and the instructor's time. These are held at the local school. The belts are white, orange (1 stripe), green (2 stripes), red (2 stripes), midnight blue (black, 2 or 3 stripes), master/kodanja (midnight blue with red stripe). The other requirement is to be up to date on your national membership fees ($80/yr). Black belt tests are significantly more expensive, starting at $450. This is mostly because we test by region, our region is the rocky mountain states from Canada to Mexico. It lasts a weekend and it requires us to bring instructors from other regions to hold seminars and be on the test panel. We try to at least pay for their hotel and help with airfare etc plus we need to pay for the hotel conference space, etc... We hold these tests every six months. We encourage all Dan ranks, whether testing or not, to attend the event and seminars (about $100 if signed up for seminars). It's a good fellowship/networking/training experience. The kodanja test is yearly and at a national (or international if you choose) level. I don't know the cost of this but it's probably comparable in terms of fees. This test is eight days long and "visitors" are also welcome to train along with the candidates and assembled panel.

As an aside, if I ever started my own school I would charge more for color belt testing ($25+ as suggested donation) and either pool it to pay the fees for my students testing for Dan ranks or use it as a scholarship fund for yearly national organization fees. Or some combination of this. I don't own a studio so I don't know but I suspect that cost of belts in bulk isn't too much and can probably be rolled into operation costs without too much effect on the bottom line (again, I'm not an owner so I don't know).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

On the topic of belt/promotion fees, color belt fees are minimal ($25-$30) and mostly cover the price of the belt and the instructor's time. These are held at the local school. The belts are white, orange (1 stripe), green (2 stripes), red (2 stripes), midnight blue (black, 2 or 3 stripes), master/kodanja (midnight blue with red stripe). The other requirement is to be up to date on your national membership fees ($80/yr). Black belt tests are significantly more expensive, starting at $450. This is mostly because we test by region, our region is the rocky mountain states from Canada to Mexico. It lasts a weekend and it requires us to bring instructors from other regions to hold seminars and be on the test panel. We try to at least pay for their hotel and help with airfare etc plus we need to pay for the hotel conference space, etc... We hold these tests every six months. We encourage all Dan ranks, whether testing or not, to attend the event and seminars (about $100 if signed up for seminars). It's a good fellowship/networking/training experience. The kodanja test is yearly and at a national (or international if you choose) level. I don't know the cost of this but it's probably comparable in terms of fees. This test is eight days long and "visitors" are also welcome to train along with the candidates and assembled panel.

As an aside, if I ever started my own school I would charge more for color belt testing ($25+ as suggested donation) and either pool it to pay the fees for my students testing for Dan ranks or use it as a scholarship fund for yearly national organization fees. Or some combination of this. I don't own a studio so I don't know but I suspect that cost of belts in bulk isn't too much and can probably be rolled into operation costs without too much effect on the bottom line (again, I'm not an owner so I don't know).

Belts can be had wholesale for about $2, so they are often just considered as part of the overhead expense.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I've seen the low grade cotton belts, very light and flimsy and they usually come with a lightweight uniform. From my experience, the kind of belt you would get with a uniform designed for a grappling art such as Judo or Jiu Jitsu is a very heavy and durable belt since the uniform designed for such arts will be heavy and durable as it has to withstand all the gripping and pulling that are done in such arts. The belt itself will also be subject to some gripping and pulling so it too will have to be strong. At my Karate school they also teach Judo and although they sell different uniforms for each art the belts are the same. When you get promoted you buy your new belt, so lets say you just got promoted to orange belt, you buy your orange belt and its the same kind of belt whether its going to be used for Judo or Karate. Since the belt might be used for Judo it had to be strong. The last time I bought a belt from them they were $5 with the exception of the black belt which they just give to you once you earn it. That was many years ago so the price might've gone up but back then you could buy a good belt for only $5. From what I know standard martial arts belts are made out of cotton and most of the belts used in the martial arts are cotton although the quality and durability of all cotton belts varies. I have seen belts made out of silk or satin but with a canvas core.

 

[TSDTexan]

@Mark Lynn, was this another mis-click, or was there something you actually didn't like in this one?

I was wondering that too.
And to which part did he dislike?

 

[TSDTexan]

On the topic of belt/promotion fees, color belt fees are minimal ($25-$30) and mostly cover the price of the belt and the instructor's time. These are held at the local school. The belts are white, orange (1 stripe), green (2 stripes), red (2 stripes), midnight blue (black, 2 or 3 stripes), master/kodanja (midnight blue with red stripe). The other requirement is to be up to date on your national membership fees ($80/yr). Black belt tests are significantly more expensive, starting at $450. This is mostly because we test by region, our region is the rocky mountain states from Canada to Mexico. It lasts a weekend and it requires us to bring instructors from other regions to hold seminars and be on the test panel. We try to at least pay for their hotel and help with airfare etc plus we need to pay for the hotel conference space, etc... We hold these tests every six months. We encourage all Dan ranks, whether testing or not, to attend the event and seminars (about $100 if signed up for seminars). It's a good fellowship/networking/training experience. The kodanja test is yearly and at a national (or international if you choose) level. I don't know the cost of this but it's probably comparable in terms of fees. This test is eight days long and "visitors" are also welcome to train along with the candidates and assembled panel.

As an aside, if I ever started my own school I would charge more for color belt testing ($25+ as suggested donation) and either pool it to pay the fees for my students testing for Dan ranks or use it as a scholarship fund for yearly national organization fees. Or some combination of this. I don't own a studio so I don't know but I suspect that cost of belts in bulk isn't too much and can probably be rolled into operation costs without too much effect on the bottom line (again, I'm not an owner so I don't know).

Which tang soo do organization is your school under? There are quite a few these days.

 

[mgotangsoodo]

Which tang soo do organization is your school under? There are quite a few these days.

US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation.

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[TSDTexan]

US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation.

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I suspected as much from the color belt progression.

I am not not a fan of time in rank requirements, if they are adopted late in an organization's history.

It creates an unfair inequality between earlier students and current students.

While it is claimed that it helps eliminate McDoJang diploma mills that give a guaranteed BB in X months for only 2000.00.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really guarantee real world self defense ability or accurate/complete transmission of an art.

 

[mgotangsoodo]

So I didn't really opine on whether fees were good or bad or about them in general. I think I wound my way there in my reply though. I tend to think that it's not a bad thing to pay someone for their labor/expertise. After all, we pay our instructor for weekly lessons, right? If it's more time/work from them to hold a testing session then, by all means, they should be encouraged to charge for it. In the case of the black belt testing in my organization, we put a lot of emphasis on consistency of grading regionally, nationally, and internationally so it potentially requires instructors and candidates to travel long distances to take part. The more you progress and mature, the more this is expected of you, cost understandably goes up. On the other side, guest instructors are usually compensated and tests become increasingly far apart while fees level out, after all, you're paying for the event and the instructors not lining the orgs pockets. I think my organization has an opportunity to make these things more accessible for people, hence the idea of a scholarship fund or a policy of paying for a Dan test. I'm sure there are better ideas as well.

 

[mgotangsoodo]

Not sure I understand the unfair inequality statement? I know that students coming from other styles will progress faster through the color belts or may be evaluated at an equivalent Dan rank if coming from another TSD org. The minimum times are generally what is needed to pick up the curriculum. As with any grading you must seek instructor permission and can/will fail tests (retest generally cover the failed portion and don't require an additional fee). In addition, because all Dan tests are regionally administered an instructor will not recommend you until they are sure you are able to pass when being evaluated by their peers and superiors. Most students will take extra time to prepare, for example wait 2.5 to 3 years between first and second Dan before attempting. There is also a requirement to be evaluated by the regional test board at the shim sa before the one you intend to grade at (six months before your test). There are a lot of checks and eyes on you every step of the way so I'm fairly confident that we, for the most part, do a fair job of evaluating students every step of the way.

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[TSDTexan]

Not sure I understand the unfair inequality statement? I know that students coming from other styles will progress faster through the color belts or may be evaluated at an equivalent Dan rank if coming from another TSD org. The minimum times are generally what is needed to pick up the curriculum. As with any grading you must seek instructor permission and can/will fail tests (retest generally cover the failed portion and don't require an additional fee). In addition, because all Dan tests are regionally administered an instructor will not recommend you until they are sure you are able to pass when being evaluated by their peers and superiors. Most students will take extra time to prepare, for example wait 2.5 to 3 years between first and second Dan before attempting. There is also a requirement to be evaluated by the regional test board at the shim sa before the one you intend to grade at (six months before your test). There are a lot of checks and eyes on you every step of the way so I'm fairly confident that we, for the most part, do a fair job of evaluating students every step of the way.

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The inequality I am referring to is during the 50s-60s and 70s the MDK wasn't really enforcing a previous time in lower rank requirement to promote.

Just being able to pass the arduous testing was enough. In fact back then the MDK had some Dan's double promote.

It is unfair to current students who can pass the same tests, but due to time in rank requirements, are unable to

 

[TSDTexan]

All our belts are cotton. Personally, I like the Eosin Panther belts with two sided embroidery (I have English on one side an Hangeul on the other), but they're kind of pricey. It's debatable if they're worth it for a belt that'll only be worn a year or so.

While the Panther is a better belt, I like the feel and fit of a Kataaro belt a bit better. At least the are both made in America by companies with high quality control standards.

 

[mgotangsoodo]

The inequality I am referring to is during the 50s-60s and 70s the MDK wasn't really enforcing a previous time in lower rank requirement to promote.

Just being able to pass the arduous testing was enough. In fact back then the MDK had some Dan's double promote.

It is unfair to current students who can pass the same tests, but due to time in rank requirements, are unable to

It depends on how you look at it. As organizations mature and grow standardization becomes necessary to ensure consistency. They aren't doing every test in S Korea in front of GM Hwang Kee anymore, this organization is worldwide and requires global coordination. So no, it's not a guarantee but it's a judgement a group of people made to, hopefully, build a stronger, more consistent organization. As far as I know regional examiners, the KJN, and the technical committee have the ability to use discretion when recommending someone for promotion. So, I don't think it's perfect but I like the benefits of a large worldwide organization and I understand it's purpose and believe through experience that the process works "well enough" even if some people fall through the cracks but in the end rank and seniority stop mattering at a point and what matters is how hard you train and how open you are to learning. That's why I love the idea of regional events every six months. I will gladly spend money and travel a thousand miles to join up with people who have the same martial arts values as me and want to train just as hard as me and spend time teaching and learning from eachother.

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[mgotangsoodo]

While the Panther is a better belt, I like the feel and fit of a Kataaro belt a bit better. At least the are both made in America by companies with high quality control standards.

My only complaint about the Kataaro belt was that they didn't have a midnight blue in 100% cotton and so the feel and color were way off from what I would have liked them to be (clearly personal preference).

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[TSDTexan]

My only complaint about the Kataaro belt was that they didn't have a midnight blue in 100% cotton and so the feel and color were way off from what I would have liked them to be (clearly personal preference).

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Back when my master's master was starting the MDK, the midnight blue belt didn't exist.

And back then it wasn't uncommon for a soldier/airman/marine to rotate out at 18 months with a shodan rank.

When "Chuck" Norris failed his first shodan test in front of HWANG Kee, and JC Shin and others on the exam board in Seoul, he had about a month to correct what failed him and retested and passed before rotation back to the US.

Less than 18 months to shodan test back then...

Today the MDK requires 33 months or 2.75 years in gup rank before testing for Shodan.
And 32 months as a Federation member.


The training methods used in Korea, didn't work out in the US. Ask Robert Cheezicwhat happened in his first couple schools...

100 dropout rate. The common complain was the training was too hard.

He like many others had to dial it back.

 

[mgotangsoodo]

Back when my master's master was starting the MDK, the midnight blue belt didn't exist.

And back then it wasn't uncommon for a soldier/airman/marine to rotate out at 18 months with a shodan rank.

When "Chuck" Norris failed his first shodan test in front of HWANG Kee, and JC Shin and others on the exam board in Seoul, he had about a month to correct what failed him and retested and passed before rotation back to the US.

Less than 18 months to shodan test back then...

Today the MDK requires 33 months or 2.75 years in gup rank before testing for Shodan.
And 32 months as a Federation member.


The training methods used in Korea, didn't work out in the US. Ask Cheezik what happened in his first couple schools...

100 dropout rate. The common complain was the training was too hard.

Yeah, it's not trained airmen or post war occupation villagers anymore, it's suburban kids. Not surprising it takes longer to pick up the curriculum.

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