Being overweight, judging overweight, judging others generally...

[Archangel M]

Happiness matters too. I don't like broccoli and never will. I won't eat it. Not even for an extra decade. And the same goes for all broccoli's evil green cousins. That's not food, that's what food eats. I like my food to have had a face on it.

Yes, happiness does matter, but its my opinion that some folks use the "Id rather die happy than live a long time miserable" as a rationalization and excuse for the status quo. Im betting that when the moment of their early death arrives they would be willing to trade a few of those "happy moments" on the couch with the bag of chips for a few more years of "unhappy" life. There are plenty of things to enjoy in life besides a 'happy diet".

While I have never been heavy, just giving up soda and being conscious of limiting "junk food" has done wonders for what "spare tire" I have been developing in my middle years.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yes, happiness does matter, but its my opinion that some folks use the "Id rather die happy than live a long time miserable" as a rationalization and excuse for the status quo.

I believe I am entitled to my rationalizations and my excuses. As you are yours. The difference is that I have no impulse to tell others how they ought to take care of themselves.

Im betting that when the moment of their early death arrives they would be willing to trade a few of those "happy moments" on the couch with the bag of chips for a few more years of "unhappy" life.

Let us say that is true. Again, so what?

There are plenty of things to enjoy in life besides a 'happy diet".

Do you think I don't engage in those things also?

While I have never been heavy, just giving up soda and being conscious of limiting "junk food" has done wonders for what "spare tire" I have been developing in my middle years.

I think that's great, it's an accomplishment to be proud of. What makes you think I want to do that? More to the point, if I do choose to do that, it will be because I want to do that, and most certainly not because someone else thought it was a good idea for me to do it.

I have often found that normal-sized people assume I am very unhappy about my size - I guess because they think about it and decide that they would be unhappy if they were my size. So it is often with a sense of pity, or empathy, or honest desire to 'help' me have a better, happier, or healthier life that they shove their little health fact nuggets in my ear.

MY LIFE. That's all that really matters.

People with their advice about my health and what I ought to do about it get the same treatment as the nice earnest people who come to my door with a copy of Watchtower, know what I mean?

And now, my friend, I am have to get ready to head out to the dojo. 3 hours of physical pain and suffering, and then I will return home and have dinner. The one I want. No veggies, I hate them.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Skin color is not something you can do anything about whereas weight is. Now I'm not defending Omar's comment, just pointing out the difference between race and weight.

TFW,

I'm going to tread out on the head of a philosophical pin -- on the one hand, yes, race and weight are different. The choice to cast judgment over a group of people for their weight, age, race or religion, to my mind, equates to the same thing. What if people could change their race? Should they do that for convenience sake? People can change their religion? Should they?

Your argument -- though I respect that it comes from a thoughtful place -- suggests the people have rights in certain cases to judge others. If it's ok to pronounce upon fuller-figured people like me, it's similarly ok to pronounce upon the poor. Heavy people can get lighter in many cases, but they should be doing it because they believe it is the right thing to do, not because their presence offends others.

Sorry to drift the thread, everybody.

 

[Wishbone]

TFW,

I'm going to tread out on the head of a philosophical pin -- on the one hand, yes, race and weight are different. The choice to cast judgment over a group of people for their weight, age, race or religion, to my mind, equates to the same thing. What if people could change their race? Should they do that for convenience sake? People can change their religion? Should they?

Your argument -- though I respect that it comes from a thoughtful place -- suggests the people have rights in certain cases to judge others. If it's ok to pronounce upon fuller-figured people like me, it's similarly ok to pronounce upon the poor. Heavy people can get lighter in many cases, but they should be doing it because they believe it is the right thing to do, not because their presence offends others.

Sorry to drift the thread, everybody.

So I suppose none of us have a right to judge serial murderers, rapists and child molesters. How dare we.

 

[The Last Legionary]

So I suppose none of us have a right to judge serial murderers, rapists and child molesters. How dare we.

I think anyone too stupid to see the difference between a fat dude and a rapist, or a murderer, or a child molester, is someone who is too stupid to be allowed to reprorduce and should be sterilized, lest they pass on their dimwittedness.

7 pages, and you get what? Lots of crap, stereotypes, and prejudice.

Sometimes, I think some people's views stink like a fattys butt crack, in August, in Panama, when they hasn't seen a shower since February.

I'll bow out here. The Obama Bashing's still in full swing, so I go now to read even more enlightened views from burned out bulbs.

 

[Sukerkin]

So I suppose none of us have a right to judge serial murderers, rapists and child molesters. How dare we.

That's an argumentative fallacy, Wishbone.

The judgement that is made upon such offenders is a legal one based on the need to protect society as a whole from those who deliberately harm others.

Making mock of fat people is no different from making mock of tall or short people or red headed people. In no small part, 'fatness' is genetic or socialised in it's roots and is certainly tied in to marital status, age and wealth.

I am now fat for the first time in my life. Why? Because I'm in my mid-forties, have a larger disposable income than I ever had and have settled down. Does this mean you have the right to make fun of me?

That's a rhetorical question by the way.

 

[Gordon Nore]

So I suppose none of us have a right to judge serial murderers, rapists and child molesters. How dare we.

Actually, judges have the right to judge them. But if you want to wander out there on that slender reed of an argument, I'll take a little stroll with you. Anybody can judge members of another group. What I have challenged in my splendid post above is the idea that one can legitimize or rationalize one form of discrimination over another.

Now I'm guilty of this myself. I'm terribly intolerant of people who use ****** logic. It's a character flaw that I'm working on.

:lfao:

 

[Thesemindz]

Does this mean you have the right to make fun of me?

While I agree generally with your post, I wanted to pull this quote out and comment on it seperately.

I am of the firm belief that we all have the right to make fun of you. And of me. And of fat people. And of disabled people. And of homosexual people. And of black people. And of white people. And of redheads, and blondes, and people who wear glasses, and poor people, and rich people, and democrats, and republicans.

We always have the right to make fun of other people. Whether for some form of satire intended to teach a lesson, or out of pure mean spirited nastiness.

And everyone else has the right to watch us do it and say, "that guy is a total ***."

That's what free speach is about. The right to be an ***. It's not about educating the masses, or enlightening the unwashed, or changing minds. It's about making a total *** of yourself, and having every right to do so, while everyone else in the room looks on in disgust.

That's how we make informed decisions with regards to our freedom to assemble. If the idiots and bigots and partisans all had to hide their true feelings, we'd never know who to avoid. We might accidently end up standing next to a racist, or a sexist, or a scientologist.

So no, we don't suddenly have the right to make fun of you for being fat now. We've always had the right to make fun of you, for any reason we see fit.

And you've always had the right to judge us for it.


-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

Actually, judges have the right to judge them. But if you want to wander out there on that slender reed of an argument, I'll take a little stroll with you. Anybody can judge members of another group. What I have challenged in my splendid post above is the idea that one can legitimize or rationalize one form of discrimination over another.

Now I'm guilty of this myself. I'm terribly intolerant of people who use shi++y logic. It's a character flaw that I'm working on.

:lfao:

Actually, I judge them too. I feel perfectly comfortable in saying that child molesters are scum, and I am a better person than a child molester.

I don't feel pretentious or snotty in saying so either. In fact, I don't feel anything. I think on any objective scale, I would rate higher than a child molester.

So while I agree with the general thrust of your argument, I must also agree with Wishbone when he speaks of judging people. I do.

I judge statists, and murderers, and rapists, and arsonists, and gangbangers, and priests who molest children, and corporations who defraud their investors, and jerks at work who steal money from their coworkers, and stupid people, and irrational people, and people who live off the government, and people who recognize evil and make a conscious decision to go along with it.

You're welcome to judge me for being so judgemental, I'm okay with that to.


-Rob

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, I actually do wholeheartedly agree with you, TMZ.

We have all become far too thin skinned these days - which is ironic considering the all too real horrors that are going on around the globe.

However, there is a definable difference between 'gentle ribbing' and 'demonising/denigrating'. It has to be said that it depends where the 'offending' remark comes from. If a friend says, "Crikey, Mark, you've turned into a bit of a fat bastard these days!", it's one thing, if someone else who doesn't know me from Adam says the same thing, it's something rather more hurtful.

 

[Thesemindz]

However, there is a definable difference between 'gentle ribbing' and 'demonising/denigrating'. It has to be said that it depends where the 'offending' remark comes from. If a friend says, "Crikey, Mark, you've turned into a bit of a fat bastard these days!", it's one thing, if someone else who doesn't know me from Adam says the same thing, it's something rather more hurtful.

I agree, which is why that stranger is more the bastard for having done so.

Even when it is demonising or denigrating it must be allowed to go forth. If we stifle the words and thoughts of those we despise, then those who despise us will do the same.


-Rob

 

[Wishbone]

I think anyone too stupid to see the difference between a fat dude and a rapist, or a murderer, or a child molester, is someone who is too stupid to be allowed to reprorduce and should be sterilized, lest they pass on their dimwittedness.

7 pages, and you get what? Lots of crap, stereotypes, and prejudice.

Sometimes, I think some people's views stink like a fattys butt crack, in August, in Panama, when they hasn't seen a shower since February.

I'll bow out here. The Obama Bashing's still in full swing, so I go now to read even more enlightened views from burned out bulbs.

I'm going to presume this is directed at me since you quoted me. Nothing in my post reveals that I do not know the difference between a fat dude and a rapist if that's what you are saying. I would agree that someone who doesn't know the difference between those two might not be the best parental candidate, but it is not my place to restrict their right to do so.

My point is that when Gordon Nore said 'suggests that the people have rights in certain cases to judge others' it implies that we don't ever have the right to judge others. He then goes on to point out if it's okay to judge someone for being fat, then it's okay to judge someone for being poor. I think it is okay to judge for both. Does it make me right? No. Does it make me better than who I am judging? Certainly not.

I know people who claim they have a genetic problem with, weight and they will say this with a straight face while stuffing themselves with fried chinese buffets. Then brag about how they are eating healthy by getting the medium fries from McDonalds. Do I judge these people? Hell yes I do. Does it make me better than them? No. Then there are people like Bill Mattocks. He seems comfortable with himself and I say Bravo. I don't judge him for being overweight. I judge him for his character, which he seems to have plenty of. But I do judge people with the lack of character who blame their situations of weight, poverty, education, on others, and not themselves. This includes the types I mentioned of murderers, rapists and child molesters.

My point is that Gordon Nore is wrong in implying that people are ever in situations where they don't have a right to judge others. Is the judgement correct? Maybe, depends each time, and to each person. But under no circumstances do we not have a right to judge others.

 

[Wishbone]

That's an argumentative fallacy, Wishbone.

The judgement that is made upon such offenders is a legal one based on the need to protect society as a whole from those who deliberately harm others.

Making mock of fat people is no different from making mock of tall or short people or red headed people. In no small part, 'fatness' is genetic or socialised in it's roots and is certainly tied in to marital status, age and wealth.

I am now fat for the first time in my life. Why? Because I'm in my mid-forties, have a larger disposable income than I ever had and have settled down. Does this mean you have the right to make fun of me?

That's a rhetorical question by the way.

Rhetorical or not, it will be answered.

Yes, I do have the right to make fun of you. I'm not going to mostly because I don't know you and I don't generally make fun of individuals I don't know.

I wear glasses. You have the right to call me four-eyes, or anything like that. Guess what? I'm not going to get offended. And if you bring a new joke about my eye sight that I haven't heard before I'm probably going to laugh my *** off and consider you awesome.

I'm not talking about a legal judgement against the groups I mentioned. I'm talking about a personal one, the same I could make against a fat person. Just my own personal judgement of them. I would agree if I were trying to equate judgement in a legal sense to judging overweight people that would be a logical fallacy, but I'm not.

By the way, fatness is not genetic near as people pretend. That is a lame excuse. If you argued it is due to the nature of our modern sedentary society we could discuss that, but don't tell me that it's genetic. That affects a tiny population of the overweight population.

 

[Archangel M]

And I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with "judging". If there is anything wrong with our society today it is the social pressure to avoid telling people that we believe their behavior is WRONG.

"You can judge me!" translates into "I want to do whatever the hell I want regardless of its impact on others and I dont want to be criticized for it."

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I like to judge the people who even after about half a dozen attempts to re-rail the thread topic are still too stupid to get the bloody clue.

 

[shesulsa]

And I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with "judging". If there is anything wrong with our society today it is the social pressure to avoid telling people that we believe their behavior is WRONG.

"You can judge me!" translates into "I want to do whatever the hell I want regardless of its impact on others and I dont want to be criticized for it."

See ... the problem I have with your statement here is that I've known a handful of people who were put on specific drugs to save their lives which packed weight on them they can not get off; I've known others whose thyroid glands went berzerk or crapped out and the replacement for that packs on the weight. My son was on a particular drug that put forty pounds on his frame.

I suppose if you have to judge other people to make yourself feel better, then I guess that's what you'll have to do. If you need to use the excuse that you should have the right to do so is ... well ... in my opinion, it's childish. You can't possibly know the exact circumstances of every person walking down the street - fat, thin, moderate, short, fat, tall, acne-ridden, smelly or loony. You may THINK you have it all dialed in ... but I assure you - as you mature, you will find out just how much you thought you knew was wrong.

I wish you luck and send you compassion.

 

[Wishbone]

Actually, judges have the right to judge them. But if you want to wander out there on that slender reed of an argument, I'll take a little stroll with you. Anybody can judge members of another group. What I have challenged in my splendid post above is the idea that one can legitimize or rationalize one form of discrimination over another.

Now I'm guilty of this myself. I'm terribly intolerant of people who use ****** logic. It's a character flaw that I'm working on.

:lfao:

As I already addressed, I'm not talking about in a legal sense, so you can walk down that slender reed by yourself.

Your Splendid humble average post does not challenge the idea that one can legitamize or rationalize one form of discrimination over another. It simply implies that people don't have the right to judge others, uses an analogy of comparing judging the overweight to the poor, and closes with an anecdote saying that fat people should change because they want to, not because of peer pressure. If you want to discuss this new point you have mentioned feel free post about that. However, as you'll see. I'll bet we'd agree anyway, so don't do it on my account.

I'm saying people have rights to judge others all the time. Whereas your post implied they do not. I am not saying that their judging is correct, or that it is 'legitamite'. And in fact, I agree with your opinion that on issues of weight people should change because want to.

 

[Archangel M]

See ... the problem I have with your statement here is that I've known a handful of people who were put on specific drugs to save their lives which packed weight on them they can not get off; I've known others whose thyroid glands went berzerk or crapped out and the replacement for that packs on the weight. My son was on a particular drug that put forty pounds on his frame.

I suppose if you have to judge other people to make yourself feel better, then I guess that's what you'll have to do. If you need to use the excuse that you should have the right to do so is ... well ... in my opinion, it's childish. You can't possibly know the exact circumstances of every person walking down the street - fat, thin, moderate, short, fat, tall, acne-ridden, smelly or loony. You may THINK you have it all dialed in ... but I assure you - as you mature, you will find out just how much you thought you knew was wrong.

I wish you luck and send you compassion.

See you are confusing judging with no evidence or knowledge about the person (pre-judgement) vs. judging WITH evidence or information. If you think I have already judged someone based on just "looking" at them then you are wrong.

Thinking I am prone to the first and not the latter is about you pre-judging me. Thinking you know anything about me and my maturity or life-experience based on posts here is pre-judgemental as well.

 

[Gordon Nore]

As I already addressed, I'm not talking about in a legal sense, so you can walk down that slender reed by yourself.

I wrote,

Anybody can judge members of another group. What I have challenged in my splendid post above is the idea that one can legitimize or rationalize one form of discrimination over another.

I don't believe that one form of discrimination is more or less just than another. I don't think it is more reasonable to deride obese people than it is to deride black people. My argument is built on a personal belief that I never attempted to present as a universal truth.

Your counterpoint was to say, 'What about the child molesters?' So we're talking about two completely different things. I'm talking about groups of people at face value. You're talking about people who have invited judgment upon themselves by committing anti-social atrocities. That's the thin reed.

 

[The Last Legionary]

I'm going to presume this is directed at me since you quoted me. Nothing in my post reveals that I do not know the difference between a fat dude and a rapist if that's what you are saying. I would agree that someone who doesn't know the difference between those two might not be the best parental candidate, but it is not my place to restrict their right to do so.

I quoted you so people would know what I referenced. If my comment accurately reflected on anyone on this site, I'd hope they'd have the good sence to go win a Darwin Award.

Seriously, between the venom in this thread, the stupidity in a few of the polical ones, and a couple of homophobic losers in others, I'm starting to rethink my partcipation here. For friendly people, there sure are alot of angry, bitter, paranoid, sorry sons of bitches posting as of late.

Not aiming at anyone specifically, but if the shoe fits, maybe its time to log off, walk up the stairs, and go outside for a while already. Geez.

Glad this threads in the Study and focusing on the medical, social and genetic issues of obesity, and not in the Self Defense area where one might expect it to have something to do with that topic. Because if it was, all this other stuff might be considered off topic, and an awake mod might be in here posting nudges and winks and kicks in the *** about thread drift, and trolling, and all that happy horse pucky.

Oh wait. It is in Self Defense.

Guess someone ****ed up then huh?

Maybe splitting this off into the various parts (several of which are interesting) so that this one can refocus on Self Defense (You know, what this area's supposedly for) and the other parts can go where ever.

Someone let me know if any Self Defense discussion comes up in here, huh?