Being Fit

[Seattletcj]

After 8 pages I would hope that people get the message that strength training does not mean getting physically bulky. If you want bulk you must train specifically for bulk. NO ONE is saying to strengthen like that.

Since the football analogy isnt working here, maybe the word football player can be replaced with...professional dancer.

I know a few professional dancers (no, not strippers) that are very aware that strength training is essential for their performance, and for protection against damage (ankle sprains, knees sprains, general back aches). They know that they can remain at the minimum fitness level required for dancing, but that they could never compete with the more conditioned dancers, and they know their bodies will pay for it in the long run. There would be an obvious difference in performance. These are very slim ladies I am talking about, and they understand why it is necessary. And no one would say that they are *muscling* through their dance routines. Now I guess you can say that...we dont need to be as strong as slim dancing ladies...but that wouldnt sound so good.

I guess there is a minimum level of fitness required for taijutsu....But who really wants to be at a minimum level of performance? Does a minimum level of fitness make you better at taijutsu ? Could a maximum or moderate level of fitness make you better at taijutsu?

And I'm pretty sure Hatsumi wasnt talking about muscling through technique because of a strong "core", because that wouldnt make sense at all.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The problem with assuming that people will maintain a good enough fitness level (so as to avoid injuries during hard training, as I said before) on their own is the same as with communism - it doesn't work as long as people are people.

 

[Don Roley]

Bleh. It was good enough for him. It was good enough for his teacher... and good enough for thousands and thousands of martial artists before them. I am not going to cut that part of the training out... I don't care who says to...



Because I was given something to fill the space between my ears. I don't need someone else to tell me what to do... And I am not responsible for the Bujinkan. Only myself and my students (and really -- it is only myself). Has Sensei ever said, "if you go to the gym to get stronger, you will be kicked out of the Bujinkan?"

Unless someone has a salient argument against it... I am going to continue keeping fit (which INCLUDES going to the gym and working out regularly).

I think the part here that annoys me the most is that most of the people who argue against "bulking up" aren't coming from a position of knowledge and experience. When Nagato talks about slimming down - he was already ripped and strong before deciding he needed to work on the finer points. He didn't say, "I was never strong and fast, and that is on purpose because I *chose* to so my form would be better." That is what I hear most of the time, indirectly.

When you have slammed your hands into makiwara for years - you can look back and say, "I don't need to do that". It has a different feel for someone who has never hit anything hard in his life to say, "I don't hit things hard because Takamatsu said it wasn't important".

Forest for the trees... Forest for the trees.

I have trouble with all of the above. Hatsumi and Takamatsu have problems due to certain things they did in the past and stopped advising others to do it and you still say it is good enough for you? Have you heard the story of Takagi Oriemon?

I don't care if Hatsumi has not forbidden it, if he does not advise it that is enough for me. The only things I hear in Japan is good diet, long walks (sometimes up mountains with friends) and getting your hips as low as possible while training. That is what they did in the past and still advise. I do not do the stuff they fooled with and dropped.

And when someone does something that they think was bad for them and passes that lesson onto me, I don't think I need to duplicate their actions to learn the lessons they have to teach me. The whole idea of having an art with a tradition is that you don't have to actually go into battle to learn what works and what does not.

 

[Seattletcj]

I think that we have determined that there is a minimal level of fitness required for taijutsu, and each individual is free to stay at that minimal level, be at a place below that level, or move above that level. Everyone is free to be as lazy and sedentary, or as active and fit as they determine they want and/or need. Its not wrong to do minimal exercise, and live a minimally healthy life. The question is...is it better/more beneficial overall to move beyond the minimal levels?
I believe that most people would say yes.

Don,

1 Can you see the benefits of being beyond minimum fitness levels for taijutsu?

2 Do you understand that strengthening certain aspects like the core will not inhibit, decrease, or adversely effect taijutsu and will not promote muscling through techniques? And that strengthening may actually positively effect posture for example.

3 Do you recognize that the Japanese Shihan might not know everything about fitness and conditioning, and that it may be benefical for you to do things beyond what you are directly told by them?

Being at absolute minimum fitness levels for effective dojo training is not necessairly the same as being effective in the outside world, unless you determine that you will never face an opponent who is just as technically skilled (if not more so), just as smart (if not more so), and more fit then you are. Or that you will never face a challenge in your life that requires beyond minimal levels of strength and/or endurance.

 

[Cryozombie]

Its not wrong to do minimal exercise, and live a minimally healthy life. The question is...is it better/more beneficial overall to move beyond the minimal levels?

THIS is the issue I have with the attitudes on that side of the argument. Someone finally put it in a concise enough manner for me to see what I have been trying to say.

Minimal Excercise does NOT minimal health mean, or vice versa.

Who's healthier? The guy who is carful about balancing his diet, eating healthy foods, and walking 2 miles a day as his only excercise, or the "Jock" lifting weights 5 days a week at the gym, then going to McDonalds for lunch, and Buffalo Wild Wings for beer and wings with his friends at night?

That statment I quoted screams the guy goin to the gym is in better shape cuz he works out harder... regarless of his diet.

There is a balance someplace, and thats what I think no one is willing to admit to.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

http://yalenewhavenhealth.org/healthnews/HealthNewsFeature/hnf122203.htm

Preventing Heart Disease: Exercise Is More Important than Diet

Exercise, not diet, may be your best defense against heart disease, according to a long-term federal study.

Researchers studied health records of nearly 10,000 Americans for 17 years. The scientists compared levels of physical activity, body mass index, and caloric intake and found that people who ate more and exercised more were thinner and were less likely to die of heart disease. People who ate less and exercised less were more susceptible to heart disease.

Previous research has shown that exercise reduces the risk for chronic diseases, including heart disease. According to this particular study, a good exercise program is more important than diet in reducing heart disease.

 

[Cryozombie]

Problem with that is the information varies from study to study and even doctor to doctor.

For example, My doctor says that a brisk 20 minute walk is the minimum adequate excercise for heart health, but a coworker here showed me a study just yesterday that says you only need 10 minutes of walking at a normal pace for those benefits.

So...

Like I said... I have no problems with people who wanna work out, I do it myself... but, like Don, I am reading these comments to be "Anyone who doesnt spend 8 hours a day working out in the gym is a fat nacho munching slob."

 

[Don Roley]

1 Can you see the benefits of being beyond minimum fitness levels for taijutsu?

2 Do you understand that strengthening certain aspects like the core will not inhibit, decrease, or adversely effect taijutsu and will not promote muscling through techniques? And that strengthening may actually positively effect posture for example.

3 Do you recognize that the Japanese Shihan might not know everything about fitness and conditioning, and that it may be benefical for you to do things beyond what you are directly told by them?

1- Define minimum. I can walk up mt Tsukuba and leave my school kids panting but don't go to the gym.

2- Wrong question. The question should be, would concentrating on conditioning harm or improve my taijutsu. In other words, after building up this kind of conditioning hammer, would all your taijutus problems start to look like nails? And in that case, there are plenty of examples that it is a valid worry.

3- I know that Hatsumi does not know as much as I about the history of Islam, American politics, how to strip an M-16 and certain technologies but to think that they are not aware of conditioning is crazy. They have done it. They tell us now to do things in low stances, walk, etc- not go to the gym.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

So...

Like I said... I have no problems with people who wanna work out, I do it myself... but, like Don, I am reading these comments to be "Anyone who doesnt spend 8 hours a day working out in the gym is a fat nacho munching slob."

Not at all sir. I dont think anybody said that gym time should be exceeding training time, only that physical fitness should be a must for anybody who fancies themselves a warrior. What I am hearing is "Hatsumi says never jog or lift a weight and you will be able to defeat any man in physical combat". So maybe its just crossed wires.

Some guys in the Booj seem to have differing opinions on this topic too...

http://greenman.dk/content/simple/bujinkan/warrior.html

 

[Seattletcj]

THIS is the issue I have with the attitudes on that side of the argument. Someone finally put it in a concise enough manner for me to see what I have been trying to say.

Minimal Excercise does NOT minimal health mean, or vice versa.

Who's healthier? The guy who is carful about balancing his diet, eating healthy foods, and walking 2 miles a day as his only excercise, or the "Jock" lifting weights 5 days a week at the gym, then going to McDonalds for lunch, and Buffalo Wild Wings for beer and wings with his friends at night?

That statment I quoted screams the guy goin to the gym is in better shape cuz he works out harder... regarless of his diet.

There is a balance someplace, and thats what I think no one is willing to admit to.

Technopunk,

I agree with your statement. I think you are right on. When I said....

"Its not wrong to do minimal exercise, and live a minimally healthy life. The question is...is it better/more beneficial overall to move beyond the minimal levels? "

I did not mean to say that exercise = health. Although exercise (or lack of) does contribute to health, I meant to seperate exercise with healthy living/diet etc. Sorry if I was not clear.

Like I said... I have no problems with people who wanna work out, I do it myself... but, like Don, I am reading these comments to be "Anyone who doesnt spend 8 hours a day working out in the gym is a fat nacho munching slob."

No one is saying that. I did say something to the effect of...strengthening and condition is hard work and takes time and effort, and that some people would rather eat nachos and surf the internet rather then workout. This is true for myself! I make all kinds of excuses not to go to the gym sometimes. I'm too tired, my shoulder hurts, its too late, I'm hungry, I want to surf the internet etc etc. Its MUCH easier to not condition, then it is to actually do it.

 

[Seattletcj]

1- Define minimum. I can walk up mt Tsukuba and leave my school kids panting but don't go to the gym.

Just enough to participate in typical dojo training and potentially be good at it. Basically being able to stand upright, and move your legs.

2- Wrong question. The question should be, would concentrating on conditioning harm or improve my taijutsu. In other words, after building up this kind of conditioning hammer, would all your taijutus problems start to look like nails? And in that case, there are plenty of examples that it is a valid worry.

Its not the wrong question. Its the question I intended to ask. Can you anwser it?

3- I know that Hatsumi does not know as much as I about the history of Islam, American politics, how to strip an M-16 and certain technologies but to think that they are not aware of conditioning is crazy. They have done it. They tell us now to do things in low stances, walk, etc- not go to the gym.

I dont doubt that they know a fair share about it, but it really is an evolving science which is constantly being revised and updated. Are they current with all of the new scientific studies and practices? Honestly, I dont expect them to be. I think it's up to individual instructors and practitioners to be responsible enough to understand that its important and educate themselves.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Some guys in the Booj seem to have differing opinions on this topic too...

http://greenman.dk/content/simple/bujinkan/warrior.html

From my experience with people from the country in question, I can't say I'm surprised that he's a tad disillusioned.

 

[Don Roley]

I dont doubt that they know a fair share about it, but it really is an evolving science which is constantly being revised and updated. Are they current with all of the new scientific studies and practices?

There has not been that many changes in things in the last couple of decades. Their experiences are still valid in respect to how people with muscle mass tend to solve their problems with it. They have not reccomended going to the gym and I think it would be kind of egotistical of me to think that I am smarter than they and would not fall into the traps Nagato and Hatsumi seem to.

 

[Bigshadow]

Some guys in the Booj seem to have differing opinions on this topic too...

http://greenman.dk/content/simple/bujinkan/warrior.html

I would encourage you to choose your information carefully.

 

[Seattletcj]

There has not been that many changes in things in the last couple of decades. Their experiences are still valid in respect to how people with muscle mass tend to solve their problems with it. They have not reccomended going to the gym and I think it would be kind of egotistical of me to think that I am smarter than they and would not fall into the traps Nagato and Hatsumi seem to.

Once again Don, no one is talking about building or using muscle mass.
Are you even reading the posts? Can you please answer my questions directly?

 

[Don Roley]

Once again Don, no one is talking about building or using muscle mass.
Are you even reading the posts? Can you please answer my questions directly?

Yes I have been reading the posts. I will not shoot back any rudeness at you in turn. But I will point out something you wrote as recently as post #87.

Strengthening the spine, hips, knees, and back will assist in maintaining correct posture

You say strengthening, but claim it is not building up muscle mass. I say that strength, of any type, has the same traps attached to it. The Japanese do not lead us or advise us in conditioning other than doing taijutsu, stretching and things like taking long walks.

 

[seansnyder]

Yes I have been reading the posts. I will not shoot back any rudeness at you in turn. But I will point out something you wrote as recently as post #87.



You say strengthening, but claim it is not building up muscle mass. I say that strength, of any type, has the same traps attached to it. The Japanese do not lead us or advise us in conditioning other than doing taijutsu, stretching and things like taking long walks.

THE question to you Don Roley is how can these points listed below not benefit a martial artist or any taijutsu practitioner?
I have listed points made by National academy of sports medicine – some of the effects of strength training. (Normal recommended strength-training routine)

Bone Density - Consistent strength training Increases bone density and prevents osteoporosis.

Injury prevention - a wide variety of injury can be prevented by strengthening muscles and joints. Range of motion in joints is increased.

Stronger and more resilient muscles leads improved balance, flexibility, mobility and stability.

Inactivity can lead to decrease in bone density and brittleness.

Stronger the muscles the faster the recovery.

Enhance performance in sports and exercise, no matter what you favorite sport – your performance can be unquestionable improved by strength training.

AGE – Strong seniors fall down less, they recover faster. If they do fall they are more resilient and heal faster.

Strong enough to participate in recreation and sports. It also couples daily living, picking up packages in the grocery store. Less pain.

Dramatic impact on posture, having the body move and work well cohesively.


For many decades now, scientists have shown how muscle conditioning, especially strength training reduces injuries; your muscle and connective tissue undergo adaptations resulting in increased maximum tensile strength. (Facts from the national library of medicine)

American Psycological Association has a theory in progress that states; sports combine learning and exercise, they may both increase blood supply and enhance brain connections. Some evidence in humans suggests that being physically fit helps people maintain their cognitive abilities as they age. I look forward to your response.

Sean Snyder

 

[rutherford]

THE question to you Don Roley is how can these points listed below not benefit a martial artist or any taijutsu practitioner?

Sean Snyder

The question for you, Sean Snyder, is how do you know that these and other benefits are not already enjoyed by the people who appropriately practice Taijutsu?

 

[seansnyder]

The question for you, Sean Snyder, is how do you know that these and other benefits are not already enjoyed by the people who appropriately practice Taijutsu?

Where did this come from? Are you even reading the same thread?

Sean Snyder

P.S. This was why this question wasn't directed to you and it was directed to Don.

 

[Bigshadow]

P.S. This was why this question wasn't directed to you and it was directed to Don.

Snippy, are we? FYI, there are many of us that have been reading this thread. My thoughts are the same as Rutherford's regarding already enjoying these benefits.