Bear Hugs - Practical or Impractical

[kenpo_cory]

Yes, I agree that if you insert a tack there that may be effective!

(I'm sorry guys, I had to.):rofl:

hahahahahahah :rofl:

 

[TigerWoman]

\

As for the ground and why you need to fight from there. Well, IMO, everyone should have some knowledge of the ground. In response to TigerWoman...No, you dont need to go to the ground, but keep in mind, that at that time that he grabs you, you are doing grappling, only its standing. By not knowing what to do on the ground, could make a difference in the outcome, so to think that you will never get taken down, is foolish thinking. If you've never trained with a grappler, I highly suggest it. You're eyes will be open as to how quick you will be taken down, regardless of how good you think your stand up skills are. Keep in mind, that a grappler trains for that ALL the time, and the take down happens faster than you think.

That is assuming every attacker on street is a trained grappler. Sure, if he is over my weight/mass and he is trained into an immediate takedown, he has the leverage in training and mass to take me down quickly. It would be hard to get off an accurate shot if I was being football tackled. But is this a real example of a mugger/rapist on the street?

I was talking on the street self-defense from a non-martial artist. And since he is not trained, may be nervous and not as adept with his body. I am very aware of my surroundings, from past experience and am trained to be. All, I'm saying is that, if someone were to get his hands around me, in that moment of awareness, I DO have a second or two to go for the groin, his head since I am average to tall height, and use whatever I can get free in the process. I would hardly use ONE shot. And we do train for the ground, a misconception about TKD people. (Not all TKD dojangs are alike) Thanks for all your input. :asian:

 

[Zoran]

I was talking on the street self-defense from a non-martial artist. And since he is not trained, may be nervous and not as adept with his body.

That's a lot of assumptions. Un-trained street fighters have something more than most martial artists. It's called experience. Although I do admit women are usually attacked for different reasons than men, but keep in mind that they are trained through experience. Since they've probably done the same thing several times in their life. I prefer assuming and training for the worst, not hope for better circumstances.

 

[MA-Caver]

Yes, I agree that if you insert a tack there that may be effective!

(I'm sorry guys, I had to.):rofl:

:roflmao: Love it love it love it.

 

[8253]

continuoius arm movements usually can get you out of a lot of holds, but with bear hugs it has more to do with balance i think. I have been in a few of them and i find that immediately bending forward hard and then putting all of your weight to one side, as if trying to fall on your side, usually brings them off balance and they loosen up to get a better grip. Then you have a better chance of escaping to turn and fight.

 

[Thesemindz]

I have been on both the giving and recieving ends of a bear hug. In my experience, if you train to lower your hips and weight and grapevine, as well as strike the groin, it is very difficult to throw or drag down someone with a bear hug. Not impossible, but I tried to take down a fifth degree Kenpo instructor with a bear hug in a very spontaneous environment two days ago and eventually had to abandon it and strike him instead. He lowered his stance and grabbed my testicles, that changed my mind in a hurry. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. Obviously we all know there is no perfect answer. I like the bear hug, because it checks my opponents weapons. I usually only use it for a moment though, either to take my opponent down, or to move him to a disadvantageous position and then strike him. Another nice benefit of the bear hug is to transition into a rear naked choke if he forgets to pin your hands. I like the American Kenpo defenses. Of course they're practiced in a static environment, but the transition very smoothly into spontaneity.


-Rob

 

[MJS]

That is assuming every attacker on street is a trained grappler. Sure, if he is over my weight/mass and he is trained into an immediate takedown, he has the leverage in training and mass to take me down quickly. It would be hard to get off an accurate shot if I was being football tackled. But is this a real example of a mugger/rapist on the street?

If a man was intending to rape a woman, there is a chance that he could grab her and drag her to the ground. Kids wrestle in play all the time, and I dont think that every child is a train grappler either. The point I was making, along with everyone else is that if its something that you're not expecting, you could be on the ground before you know it. Not saying that there is nothing that can't be done. Sure, hits can be given, but like I said to think that one shot is going to do it, may not work. Chance you could be in a bad position and not be able to get off another shot. See, like I also said, this can go on and on and on.

I was talking on the street self-defense from a non-martial artist. And since he is not trained, may be nervous and not as adept with his body. I am very aware of my surroundings, from past experience and am trained to be. All, I'm saying is that, if someone were to get his hands around me, in that moment of awareness, I DO have a second or two to go for the groin, his head since I am average to tall height, and use whatever I can get free in the process. I would hardly use ONE shot. And we do train for the ground, a misconception about TKD people. (Not all TKD dojangs are alike) Thanks for all your input. :asian:

Agreed! There is a split second. IMO, the best way to train for this situation, is to do it on a regular basis, and keep the aliveness in it. As for the ground....it is a misconception, because 9 times out of 10, you'll hear the stand up artist say, "Why train for the ground? I'll never end up there!" If you and your school are doing it, I think that it great!!! Its good to see people keep an open mind! I addition to trained vs. non trained....I wouldnt under estimate your non trained as you're calling them. If you're a criminal, chances are you've been around the block more than 1 time.

Mike

 

[MJS]

That's a lot of assumptions. Un-trained street fighters have something more than most martial artists. It's called experience. Although I do admit women are usually attacked for different reasons than men, but keep in mind that they are trained through experience. Since they've probably done the same thing several times in their life. I prefer assuming and training for the worst, not hope for better circumstances.

Good point Sir!! :asian: The street is the best teacher, and there are many people out there that come from a rough life. If they want to survive on a day to day basis, they need to learn to fight, and I highly doubt that your typical 'street punk' is going to enroll in the local MA school!

Mike

 

[Zoran]

Good point Sir!! :asian: The street is the best teacher, and there are many people out there that come from a rough life. If they want to survive on a day to day basis, they need to learn to fight, and I highly doubt that your typical 'street punk' is going to enroll in the local MA school!

Mike

Yep. It can be seen in action when Tank first came on the UFC seen (before the UFC became more sport orientated). His way of fighting was untrained and unconvential. Yet everybody had a real hard time with him.

 

[MA-Caver]

Good point Sir!! :asian: The street is the best teacher, and there are many people out there that come from a rough life. If they want to survive on a day to day basis, they need to learn to fight, and I highly doubt that your typical 'street punk' is going to enroll in the local MA school!
Mike

Perhaps, perhaps not. It depends upon the punk. People do move out and up from past environments. I know I have. So some folks do eventually reflect and consider taking a course in SD or get involved/enrolled in a MA school.
While I'm not currently enrolled, were I to ever degenerate back to a low-life criminal mind-set...I think I'd have an advantage how-ever slight, because of formal MA training that I received.
It would be interesting to see the demographic or statistic of the number of people (in this country anyway) who have had some (if any) MA or SD training. Even if it was a 2 hour course in SD or were enrolled in a school long enough to get a couple of belts before dropping out for whatever reason, loss of interest, dissatisfaction, no money, whatever!
But yes, the street is the best educator for self defense, but not Martial Art(s). There's a big difference.

 

[Shu2jack]

Well, unless the attacker is a lot bigger/stronger than you, couldn't you just simply make your body "dead weight" by dropping your body weight? I have had guys in class around my size and slightly bigger than me pick me up from a rear bear hug and try to pick me up and move me around or throw me. If they are strong enough they can drag me slowly, but they have a hard time because most people have a hard time throwing or ramming 170lbs of dead weight into a wall full force. When they start to pick you up and drag you, just drop everything down. If you time it right you can pull one of their back muscles.

I only mention this because it seems to be the best option when you are suddenly grabbed from behind and starting to be lifted and carried away and you have have very little or no effective options in the technique department or time. Of course, then the guy can just drop you on your *** and kick you when you are down, but at least my head wasn't slammed into the ground or I wasn't thrown through a window.

As for people from the street having an advantage over MAs. I think MAs have the advantage in techinque. My instructor always used to tell the beginners that he is not here to teach us how to kick and punch. A child can do that. He is here to teach us how to kick and punch effectivly and in such a way so we limit the injuries to ourselves by kicking and punching.

I believe people "from the street" have a mental advantage. They pick the spot to attack, they pick the time, they pick most of the conditions, they are the ones doing the surprizing, they have done street fights before so they are more relaxed when they are fighting, and if they are commiting a crime then they usually won't give a second thought to injuring or killing someone which in my mind deters a lot of MAs. If one person is trying to kill you and you are focused on not getting hurt or merly "disarming" or "detaining" him, then you are probably going to get hurt.

 

[Ceicei]

I believe people "from the street" have a mental advantage. They pick the spot to attack, they pick the time, they pick most of the conditions, they are the ones doing the surprizing, they have done street fights before so they are more relaxed when they are fighting, and if they are commiting a crime then they usually won't give a second thought to injuring or killing someone which in my mind deters a lot of MAs. If one person is trying to kill you and you are focused on not getting hurt or merly "disarming" or "detaining" him, then you are probably going to get hurt.

Well said. Thank you!

- Ceicei

 

[hedgehogey]

My thoughts: First of all "static defenses" don't work, since, as was pointed out earlier, there is no such thing as a static attack. "Alive" training is neccesary here.

Now, in order to defend this attack, you MUST have live grappling experience. It's a grappling attack and should be dealt with as such. Asking a striker to tell you how to defend that is like asking a judoka how to defend a jab-cross.

In BJJ and greco-roman wrestling there is a strategy of "bearhugging" where you try to work yourself into a superior position. I myself have brought down guys twice my weight using underhooks, and i'm not even good. Not all "Bearhugs" are equal.

 

[loki09789]

I think the weakness isn't in the technique but how it is trained. I know, I mean REALLY know, four bh defense and I can do them in my sleep, in the air, falling side ways as I might be in the process of falling or being thrown..... because I practiced them that way.

First they were 'static' because it was easy to learn and built confidence. As I got better at them, the variations on how each BH position might be part of a more complex attack was set up for training - BH to set up a backwards throw, sideways throw, face plant (ouch, sucks), and if it were to set up a carry into another place/vehicle/room....

The techniques work in each of these cases. Differently each time and in each scenario, but they still work. Sometimes I can get the drop (bad pun) and lower my wt. before the tossing begins, sometimes not....

Ultimately the concept of Kenpo overskill applies. Keep flowing with the technique. A gouge to the eyes will hurt the bad guy regardless of whether I am flying through the air or not. An ear pop will still get the job done. It will still hurt when I land if the breakfall isn't there because I am busy, but at least I am reducing the chance of follow up attack.

 

[MJS]

Perhaps, perhaps not. It depends upon the punk. People do move out and up from past environments. I know I have. So some folks do eventually reflect and consider taking a course in SD or get involved/enrolled in a MA school.
While I'm not currently enrolled, were I to ever degenerate back to a low-life criminal mind-set...I think I'd have an advantage how-ever slight, because of formal MA training that I received.
It would be interesting to see the demographic or statistic of the number of people (in this country anyway) who have had some (if any) MA or SD training. Even if it was a 2 hour course in SD or were enrolled in a school long enough to get a couple of belts before dropping out for whatever reason, loss of interest, dissatisfaction, no money, whatever!
But yes, the street is the best educator for self defense, but not Martial Art(s). There's a big difference.

I guess where I was going with this, was covered in your last statement. When I made referrence to the street being your teacher, I was talking about just that...fighting on the street, where there are no rules and the potential for violence in much greater than in any MA school. Sure, we can train for the reality of the street, but how many schools actually take it to that level. Zoran made a very good point when he was talking about Tank and his fights in the UFC. If you look at his very first fight in the UFC, he was pretty much billed as a street fighter. He was destroying fighters that had a background in a traditional MA. Granted, there were times when he lost, but he still put one hell of a beating on his opp. He trained with some different guys, but if you look at how he fought compared to the other guys, you can see a big difference.

Mike

 

[hardheadjarhead]

The problem of "static" self defense training isn't limited to bearhugs. Name it: Throat grabs, wrist grabs, hair pulls...when we train them we tend to do them at the lowest level of agression. Your partner stands there, very agreeably grabs you (gently, even) and you practice the technique.

That's fine...in the beginning. Eventually the agression level has to go up, though. When that happens the technique as taught might have to be modified, or a back up technique given.

Put it into sparring...along with the other stuff taught. Have a "feeder" spar the defender, and aggressively feed the various scenario attacks. I'd suggest the aggression level be brought up slowly. The attacker here has to try and get into the midset of a "bad guy"...and not feed spin kicks and backfists.

Regards,


Steve

 

[rompida]

I guess before I chime in here.. I have a question. I understand what you mean by the "aggessive" bearhug. but, are we talking about a grab, then being thrown downward towards your shoulder?

First, I'd say - train your reflexes. React before he "locks up" the BH. You should have an automatic drop in center gravity when you feel someone wrapping around you. If you can drop your @ss towards the ground, it will be easier for you to twist around and escape. It will also be harder for him to lift you.

If he does get locked in.... you have fewer options if he's driving you forward with the intent to change the direction and drop you on your head/shoulder. But, you still have options. Chances are your attacker is right handed, and will drop you over his right side toward the ground. So.....once he is locked in, grab his right arm and pull it TIGHTLY into your body. This can be done whether he grabs you with arms free or not. When he goes to dump you, pull down on the arm, causing his shoulder to drop. This will also cause you to tuck, protecting your head. If he maintains control through the throw, it will cause him to go down with you. Try it with someone and see if you can tweak it out. When I wrestled in high school, this was a common thing to have happen.

Bottom line... YES, its worth practicing. If nothing else, just drill the reaction I mentioned first. Feel the wrap up, drop weight.

 

[hedgehogey]

I guess where I was going with this, was covered in your last statement. When I made referrence to the street being your teacher, I was talking about just that...fighting on the street, where there are no rules and the potential for violence in much greater than in any MA school. Sure, we can train for the reality of the street, but how many schools actually take it to that level. Zoran made a very good point when he was talking about Tank and his fights in the UFC. If you look at his very first fight in the UFC, he was pretty much billed as a street fighter. He was destroying fighters that had a background in a traditional MA. Granted, there were times when he lost, but he still put one hell of a beating on his opp. He trained with some different guys, but if you look at how he fought compared to the other guys, you can see a big difference.

Tank sucks. He has never fought a top guy and won. All his wins have been against guys who know little to nothing about MMA. When put up against a skilled grappler in his weight class, he lost in 45 seconds.

I think the weakness isn't in the technique but how it is trained. I know, I mean REALLY know, four bh defense and I can do them in my sleep, in the air, falling side ways as I might be in the process of falling or being thrown..... because I practiced them that way.

First they were 'static' because it was easy to learn and built confidence. As I got better at them, the variations on how each BH position might be part of a more complex attack was set up for training - BH to set up a backwards throw, sideways throw, face plant (ouch, sucks), and if it were to set up a carry into another place/vehicle/room....

Your attacker might be adding different variations but it can still be static. The difference between static and alive is wether the attacker is attacking you full force or not.

Ultimately the concept of Kenpo overskill applies. Keep flowing with the technique. A gouge to the eyes will hurt the bad guy regardless of whether I am flying through the air or not.

Will it really? When grabbed from behind? I submit to you that eye gouges are vastly overrated. Not useless, just not the panacea they're advertised as.

An ear pop will still get the job done.

And *this* I have never seen work on a noncompliant opponent.

 

[Thesemindz]

(in reference to ear boxing) And *this* I have never seen work on a noncompliant opponent.

Just for the record, I dropped a guy with a double ear box and he fell to the ground crying and clutching the sides of his head. He was a "noncompliant opponent."


-Rob

 

[hedgehogey]

Pics?