Basics of Hapkido

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

Welcome to "Fantasyland"!!

In my book this is where the real fun --- and work start. Lets take two possibilities.

Poss 1. Choi actually taught this material.

Not completely outside the realm of possibility. He might not have been exposed to it through Takeda, in fact the evidence leans against his actually having been taught by Takeda. However, Japanese History suggests that there were a lot of people who crossed paths with Takeda and the other people with whom Takeda crossed paths. I bet there was a whole lot of comparing notes. Next to Takeda himself, Ueyshiba seems to have been the next most powerful personality. By what I have read Ueyshiba also had standing in other arts like Takeda and sought to propagate his beliefs like Takeda. Unlike Takeda who died in 1943, Ueyshiba lived well past WW II and to see that unless he "mellowed" a bit in his teachings that he might be "reminded" of his teaching days at the Nakano Spy School. Lets face it, his teaching after the war was very different than what he taught before and during. Just compare Shiodas' writing with Saotome's practice sometime!

Poss 2: Choi's students introduce material.

Very real possibility. Look at all the material that has been added. Ji and Kim added lots of kicking and Myung added forms and a range of traditional weapons. In Hyuk Suh and Joo Bang Lee both "Sino-sized" Hapkido arts and HanPul is just off by itself. Myung Jae Nam was hob-nobbing with the Japanese Aikido community and thats not to count the folks who had brought Aikido to Korea earlier during the Occupation. Remember, one of the problems with Hapkido as a label according to Ji (so tradition tells us) is that it read just like Aikido and people were confusing the two. Sounds like one corrupting the other to me! From all that I have read and heard Choi's original material was pretty brutal, but then, so was Ueyshibas'. I'll bet someone came along and told Choi to "lighten-up" or they would never make Hapkido a commercial success. When people got tired of arguing with him about it they probably broke-off and started their own shows. The first group probably broke-up because the players couldn't figure how to divide-up the power, control and prestige. Who knows? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[shesulsa]

Moderator Note:

The ongoing discussion on Hapkido origins has been split off of from this thread since it is completely off topic from the original post - again.

For the record, any more discussions that degrade into this diatribe will be split off from future infractions to this thread.

Gentlemen, stay on topic.

Georgia Ketchmark
MartialTalk
Sr. Moderator

 

[Hollywood1340]

Um, I think I've been pretty clear on where you can find your answers. As I see it it's pretty black and white and put out there. But if you'd like the rhetoric, here it is. CHKD is best described as pure Honsinsul (Sorry if I spelled that wrong). I heavily disagree with the "Combat" name as Zac as pointed out (I'm replying a few messages back as people are replying faster then I can reply) We don't kick high, we are less movement oriented, and there are only limted TRUE throws, however you can easily with many of our techs by simply extending them. We say we are a modern self defense system and I believe that to be the case. One word the cames up in common practice is "Camera Friendly", and no not the movie kind. The survellience kind. Our purpose it to nulify attack, and do so in a way that is "OK" In todays world of lawyers and friviolous lawsuits. I think for security professionals, law enforcement and the like it's a great way to get INTRODUCED to what HKD can have to offer. And a method of doing that is agreeable and effective.
The instructor is the make or break in the system. IF provided with someone who KNOWS what they are doing, and arn't afraid to show you that yes, it's good to have this tech but if you change it modify it, extend it, it'll work better I believe you'll have a good base. IF you have somebody who puts the tape in and walks off, tests on on the material AS written/shown, without any imput, then yes, you're not getting anything from the system. The "plug-ins" are not geared to make someone ready for MMA, rank them a black belt in BJJ, or allow them to stand their own against the dog brothers. They are ways to add to your arsenal, and do so in a time effective (I hate saying that) manner.

 

[American HKD]

Um, I think I've been pretty clear on where you can find your answers. As I see it it's pretty black and white and put out there. But if you'd like the rhetoric, here it is. CHKD is best described as pure Honsinsul (Sorry if I spelled that wrong). I heavily disagree with the "Combat" name as Zac as pointed out (I'm replying a few messages back as people are replying faster then I can reply) We don't kick high, we are less movement oriented, and there are only limted TRUE throws, however you can easily with many of our techs by simply extending them. We say we are a modern self defense system and I believe that to be the case. One word the cames up in common practice is "Camera Friendly", and no not the movie kind. The survellience kind. Our purpose it to nulify attack, and do so in a way that is "OK" In todays world of lawyers and friviolous lawsuits. I think for security professionals, law enforcement and the like it's a great way to get INTRODUCED to what HKD can have to offer. And a method of doing that is agreeable and effective.
The instructor is the make or break in the system. IF provided with someone who KNOWS what they are doing, and arn't afraid to show you that yes, it's good to have this tech but if you change it modify it, extend it, it'll work better I believe you'll have a good base. IF you have somebody who puts the tape in and walks off, tests on on the material AS written/shown, without any imput, then yes, you're not getting anything from the system. The "plug-ins" are not geared to make someone ready for MMA, rank them a black belt in BJJ, or allow them to stand their own against the dog brothers. They are ways to add to your arsenal, and do so in a time effective (I hate saying that) manner.

Thank You I believe where getting somewhere.

So when you say "modern" you mean in the sense of controling someone or not hurting them? Or modern because there's no high kicks.

The add on is what I find interesting are they taught as part of your curriculum? If so how deep is each instr. knowledge on the individual arts are they a blue belt in BJJ or an Asst Guru in Kali or just someone with some elementry level of knowledge in the add on arts?

How do you get training on the adds on?

 

[Hollywood1340]

Thank You I believe where getting somewhere.

So when you say "modern" you mean in the sense of controling someone or not hurting them? Or modern because there's no high kicks.

Modern in the sense the current legal system is taken into account in training.

The add on is what I find interesting are they taught as part of your curriculum? If so how deep is each instr. knowledge on the individual arts are they a blue belt in BJJ or an Asst Guru in Kali or just someone with some elementry level of knowledge in the add on arts?

How do you get training on the adds on?

Well how it is supposed to go as I understand is you watch the tape and boom you're "taught" I've played around with the CHKD trapping stuff and it's not bad. As for my stick work, my inst. has had previous Balintawak (Sp) training so it's more that then CHKD stuff. And the ground work has been taught since before we were affiliated with the ICHF.

 

[iron_ox]

What was your expirience at Lim's seminar???

Hello Stuart,

I was the host of Grandmaster Lim's Seminar here in Chicago last year, and would like to offer my opinion on the material and how it was covered.

I have been to a fair number of seminars over the years - lots of different stuff from different instructors - which is why I really don't attend seminars anymore. I think most people forget what a seminar is for - a brief (generally very brief) look into the training and technique taught by a particular group or individual. Because the vast majority of the 50+ participants were my students - and colored belts, I wanted to ensure that they actually got something out of the seminar - so I could have not been more pleased that Grandmaster Lim took the lower ranks to one end of the room and trained just them, alone for close to an hour - they still talk about their experiences to this day.

That to me is what a seminar is for. Upon Grandmastrer Lim's return to Chicago, these strudents will jump at the chance to train with him again. The seminar was well conducted, with good warm ups and cool downs. We also got a great short lecture on the priciples of Wha, Won, Yew and how Dojunim Choi used to describe and detail them - really great stuff.

This seminar for me was probably the best laid out and excecuted of any I had been to - no time spent showing us the "how great I am section" (where the instructor spends a huge amount of time just doing technique to boost his ego), the lower ranks were engaged and given full participatory roles (including a chance to individually demonstrate what they had been working on for Grandmaster Lim), the upper ranks were taught individuallized techniques - seperate from what the lower ranks were doing - and finally EVERYONE got a chance to interact one on one with Grandmaster Lim - the lowere ranks even got a chance to grab him and get thrown around a bit (they stilll rave about that too).

Stuart, you will have a great time. It is also worth noting that Grandmaster Lim spent a considerable time talking to us after the seminar about whatever questions we had - so save any pressing questions for the end, it's not worth trying to engage in question time while the semionar is in session (about unrealted topics) - but you have been to a few seminars and know how rude that can be, I know.

Just remember that the beauty of the seminar is being able to reinforce the learning with member of the same organization that are available after the seminar is over. Luckily, Grandmaster Lim ha a great cadre of instructors here in America that can provide that support.

Stuart, feel free to ask any other questions of me about this seminar you might have.

 

[American HKD]

Hello Stuart,

I was the host of Grandmaster Lim's Seminar here in Chicago last year, and would like to offer my opinion on the material and how it was covered.

I have been to a fair number of seminars over the years - lots of different stuff from different instructors - which is why I really don't attend seminars anymore. I think most people forget what a seminar is for - a brief (generally very brief) look into the training and technique taught by a particular group or individual. Because the vast majority of the 50+ participants were my students - and colored belts, I wanted to ensure that they actually got something out of the seminar - so I could have not been more pleased that Grandmaster Lim took the lower ranks to one end of the room and trained just them, alone for close to an hour - they still talk about their experiences to this day.

That to me is what a seminar is for. Upon Grandmastrer Lim's return to Chicago, these strudents will jump at the chance to train with him again. The seminar was well conducted, with good warm ups and cool downs. We also got a great short lecture on the priciples of Wha, Won, Yew and how Dojunim Choi used to describe and detail them - really great stuff.

This seminar for me was probably the best laid out and excecuted of any I had been to - no time spent showing us the "how great I am section" (where the instructor spends a huge amount of time just doing technique to boost his ego), the lower ranks were engaged and given full participatory roles (including a chance to individually demonstrate what they had been working on for Grandmaster Lim), the upper ranks were taught individuallized techniques - seperate from what the lower ranks were doing - and finally EVERYONE got a chance to interact one on one with Grandmaster Lim - the lowere ranks even got a chance to grab him and get thrown around a bit (they stilll rave about that too).

Stuart, you will have a great time. It is also worth noting that Grandmaster Lim spent a considerable time talking to us after the seminar about whatever questions we had - so save any pressing questions for the end, it's not worth trying to engage in question time while the semionar is in session (about unrealted topics) - but you have been to a few seminars and know how rude that can be, I know.

Just remember that the beauty of the seminar is being able to reinforce the learning with member of the same organization that are available after the seminar is over. Luckily, Grandmaster Lim ha a great cadre of instructors here in America that can provide that support.

Stuart, feel free to ask any other questions of me about this seminar you might have.

Dear Kevin

Thanks for your response.

When things are put in context it usually helps, I'm sure Bruce was looking for more advanced training and didn't get it so I aslo see his point.

That's why I alway try to find out what the seminars will cover first, If it's basics I may not be interested esspecially if it's in Ji's line of HKD.

However if it's Jung Ki Kwan I would like very much to see the basics.

 

[American HKD]

Well how it is supposed to go as I understand is you watch the tape and boom you're "taught" I've played around with the CHKD trapping stuff and it's not bad. As for my stick work, my inst. has had previous Balintawak (Sp) training so it's more that then CHKD stuff. And the ground work has been taught since before we were affiliated with the ICHF.

Dear James,

Your posts are still a little hard to follow because your answers aren't following my questions exactly, so bare with me.

1. You're actually supposed to learn CH from tapes?

2. How does rank testing work?

 

[zac_duncan]

Um, I think I've been pretty clear on where you can find your answers.

Sorry Hollywood, I don't mean to be obstinate, but it's not clear to me where to get these answers. I am a little dumb, so please, just forgive me. Also, even if I could get it written up somewhere, I'd really like to hear from someone with some experience in the system. It seems from your rank that you have several years in the system and I like get people's personal experiences.


When you say that CHKD executes techs faster than THKD, I'm curious. So if you would, please describe to me how a technique might vary between CHKD and THKD. I know it's hard to describe techniques on the web, but I am really interested.


Also, please don't take this as anything other than my intellectual curiousity.

Thanks,
-zac

 

[Hollywood1340]

Dear James,

Your posts are still a little hard to follow because your answers aren't following my questions exactly, so bare with me.

1. You're actually supposed to learn CH from tapes?

2. How does rank testing work?

In all truth, tapes complement an actual instructor. Rank testing for me anyway works like in any other art. I demo my techs, fight, and break in front of a panel of black belts.

 

[iron_ox]

Dear Kevin

Thanks for your response.

When things are put in context it usually helps, I'm sure ##### was looking for more advanced training and didn't get it so I aslo see his point.

That's why I alway try to find out what the seminars will cover first, If it's basics I may not be interested esspecially if it's in Ji's line of HKD.

However if it's Jung Ki Kwan I would like very much to see the basics.

Hello Stuart,

This might be the meat of another thread, but seminars (eg what to expect at a seminar) - as you know - are generally for introductory material unless that is stated beforehand. I am sure that when you train at some seminar style stuff with Ji, Han Jae, you pretty much know what to expect because you train with him often.

When people attend seminars, designed for "everyone" then they will be mainly "lower level" techniques - but as I said, there was plenty for the upper ranks to do with Grandmaster Lim. Again, you will not only enjoy the seminar but the other instructors of the Jung Ki Kwan, who are both freindly and informative. I can't speak for what others may "expect" from a seminar - for some it is unique enough to stay until the end.

 

[Mithios]

I do T.H. but have been working out at a C.H. school for a couple of years now, and i can say that some of the tehniques in C.H. are faster( less movement) than T.H. Notice i said faster not better!! The end product is the same center lock, chicken wing, s-lock etc. that most Hapkido people do, just with less body movement, and more use of distractions.

Take a basic beginner arm bar from a same side wrist grab, Their right hand grabing your left wrist. in T.H. we step with the left foot pivot to the right, moving our right wrist and arm at the same time to distract and unbalance the attacker, then a quick movement back to the left grabing their hand with your right, bringing your left hand on the out side of their arm and breaking their grip( and there thumb) place your live hand just above their elbow and roll their arm over maintaining your grip with your right hand, on their right hand. Then take em down.

In C.H., when their right hand grabs your left wrist you don't do the unbalancing movement to the right, but do a low line distraction kick to their knee, and go straight to grabing their hand and going to the outside of their arm, breaking their grip and thumb. etc. the rest is the same movement.

I am better at doing than writing, so i hope you guy's can understand it from the way i wrote it down. Make any sense ???

Mithios

 

[zac_duncan]

Hi Mithios, I don't quite see what you mean, but being that we both live in St. Louis and practice HKD, perhps we could meet and you could "do" rather than "say"? I'm very curious about the differences between CHKD and HKD. I also love to get together with people and play.

PM me if you're interested.

Cheers
-zac

 

[American HKD]

I do T.H. but have been working out at a C.H. school for a couple of years now, and i can say that some of the tehniques in C.H. are faster( less movement) than T.H. Notice i said faster not better!! The end product is the same center lock, chicken wing, s-lock etc. that most Hapkido people do, just with less body movement, and more use of distractions.

Take a basic beginner arm bar from a same side wrist grab, Their right hand grabing your left wrist. in T.H. we step with the left foot pivot to the right, moving our right wrist and arm at the same time to distract and unbalance the attacker, then a quick movement back to the left grabing their hand with your right, bringing your left hand on the out side of their arm and breaking their grip( and there thumb) place your live hand just above their elbow and roll their arm over maintaining your grip with your right hand, on their right hand. Then take em down.

In C.H., when their right hand grabs your left wrist you don't do the unbalancing movement to the right, but do a low line distraction kick to their knee, and go straight to grabing their hand and going to the outside of their arm, breaking their grip and thumb. etc. the rest is the same movement.

I am better at doing than writing, so i hope you guy's can understand it from the way i wrote it down. Make any sense ???

Mithios

Greetings

Good example but there's a big problem.

The example you gave of CH basically just circumvented or removed the tech from the realm of HKD coordinated power.

What's left is a simple Jujutsu style, but not Hapkido you see by removing the principles you remove the style as well!

Also you don't need the CH version any Hapkidoin can do that already, so I don't see that as modern or inovative, I teach that stuff to my student as well.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Yes Mithos I do

Stuart,
We'll have to do sometime, as words are...well limted.

 

[Mithios]

Greetings

Good example but there's a big problem.

The example you gave of CH basically just circumvented or removed the tech from the realm of HKD coordinated power.

What's left is a simple Jujutsu style, but not Hapkido you see by removing the principles you remove the style as well!

Also you don't need the CH version any Hapkidoin can do that already, so I don't see that as modern or inovative, I teach that stuff to my student as well.

You are correct!! And to me, they are seperate styles, and i think they should be treated as such. To me C.H. is more of a cross training system geared for striking stylest's who wan't to add some joint locking, etc. Into what they do, without getting into the whole art. They also do beginner to intermediate, Trapping, Arnis, BJJ, etc. So a person can get a taste and go get advanced training in these arts if they wish. Personally the cross training in these other arts is what attracted me to it, not the basic Hapkido. I do think that J.P. could have used a different name for his system though.

Mithios

( Sung Moo Kwan )

 

[Paul B]

Hi All,

Mithios,in regards to your entry into a basic armbar technique,THKD has this also. Now..it may not be taught that way in the beginning,but it is never a "set in stone" way of execution. We train to be nothing,if not adaptable. The entry you described would be one of many subset entries for the attackers "pulling" motion,nothing to exotic there,eh?

Anyhoo...it's cool hearing from some of the CHers..you guys seem a quiet bunch.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Eh, we speak up. But not much into rank or lineage debates. Prefer the kenpo boards myself. And seeing the response to us when we do bring stuff up...oi. Much rather just train

 

[Mithios]

Hi All,

Mithios,in regards to your entry into a basic armbar technique,THKD has this also. Now..it may not be taught that way in the beginning,but it is never a "set in stone" way of execution. We train to be nothing,if not adaptable. The entry you described would be one of many subset entries for the attackers "pulling" motion,nothing to exotic there,eh?

Anyhoo...it's cool hearing from some of the CHers..you guys seem a quiet bunch.

Yep! By the way, i am a traditional Hapkido practitioner, I am doing C.H. as a seperate system, I doubt i would ever switch over my Hapkido.

Paul, Do you do Aikido too? I thought i saw a post were you said you did.


Mithios

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Stuart,

When GM Lim teaches a seminar he will focus on a certain set of basic techniques and it depends on at what level one is at as to what you will learn. GM Lim will teach more advanced techniques and variations but only if the person has a good grasp on basics no matter what rank one holds!

I love working on basic material because everything stems from the first 15 techniques in Jungki Hapkido. :asian: