What value do you get in your training from practicing your basics in the air? Do you feel like you get a good sense of the mechanics behind the blocks and strikes by doing them with no resistence? Does this type of training have any worth?
Basics in the Air vs Resistance
- Thread starter Makalakumu
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At a moderate intensity I think it's fine, can work the mechanics a bit. Shouldn't be the main source of training but taking away the ability to hit hard and forcing a look at form is sometimes neccessary.
That said, too many full force punches and kicks into the air can be very rough on the elbows and knees. Maybe not for everyone, but for a lot of people.
That said, too many full force punches and kicks into the air can be very rough on the elbows and knees. Maybe not for everyone, but for a lot of people.
OP
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- #4
Andrew Green said:
I guess the biggest problem I have with this type of training is that it often feels like one is training half a technique. The initiation is there, but everything after the Newtonian recoil is missing. What ends up happening is that one's balance, when actually striking something gets skewed.
I've also found that the opposite happens when one trains against a striking surface and then attempts to do the strikes in the air. Again, the mechanics change and the body is unbalanced because it has built the mechanics to deal with the strike's recoil.
Thoughts?
Silverwing
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I think that striking the "air" is always important. Not only is it, in my opinion, easier to see one's own form while kicking without a solid target but I think that it is necessary to train new students without whom we would have no art.
For a white belt coming to any art for the first time it's extremely daunting, as I'm sure you probably remember, especially when you see black belts and other higher ranking students doing impressive moves. At that stage, while you are trying to imitate the higher ranking students it is necessary to strike "air" just as much for targeting as for form. Without this a new student could injure themselves much easier. All practitioners, in my opinion, should continue practicing this type of drill to help hone their own techniques as well. One of the Fourteen Attitude Requirements in our Gup Manuals is "Practice basic techniques all the time."
When kicking a pad or other target it is essential to actually hit it and during basic drill students are often taught to strike at specific points. Also a fast paced drill can be very stressful and can help to increase endurance.
For a white belt coming to any art for the first time it's extremely daunting, as I'm sure you probably remember, especially when you see black belts and other higher ranking students doing impressive moves. At that stage, while you are trying to imitate the higher ranking students it is necessary to strike "air" just as much for targeting as for form. Without this a new student could injure themselves much easier. All practitioners, in my opinion, should continue practicing this type of drill to help hone their own techniques as well. One of the Fourteen Attitude Requirements in our Gup Manuals is "Practice basic techniques all the time."
When kicking a pad or other target it is essential to actually hit it and during basic drill students are often taught to strike at specific points. Also a fast paced drill can be very stressful and can help to increase endurance.
Depends on how you define "good form"
In the end, form can't be seen unless someone is standing in front of you, because regardless of how crisp and pretty it is, if you can't land it your form sucks
In the end, form can't be seen unless someone is standing in front of you, because regardless of how crisp and pretty it is, if you can't land it your form sucks
Silverwing
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Yes, I agree with that am I'm not saying that learning to actually hit things is unimportant, quite the oposite actually, however, Ahp Cha Ki for example has the four parts of most other kicks, chamber, strike, chamber, set down. The strike involves the toes being pulled back rather than pointed. Don't you feel bad for the white belt who comes into class and is put straight onto a pad and does a pointed toe front kick without chambering? XS
OP
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When one first learns a technique, doing it with no resistence can really help a student learn the fundamental movements that are inherit in the technique. After a while though, the student must transition and learn how to adjust the technique to resistence. I don't see any value in continual practice of techniques with no resistence. Especially at more experienced levels.
stoneheart
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I believe bagwork, board breaking, and makiwara practice are all necessary tools in training karate. First, however, you must learn the strikes, and that's done in the air. Adding the other components too early can overwhelm a beginner.
Silverwing
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But that is exactly my point. Where would any martial art be without new students? If you've even gone even a week without practicing a technique then you probably know what I mean when I say that things don't always work like you remember them and being able to teach the technique without resistance as perfectly as possible is necessary for new students so that they can adapt it to resistance. And how will a white belt learn if not by watching a blue belt or even an orange belt? At my black belt class my instructor still does an advanced drill in the air before moving on to target and resistance kickingupnorthkyosa said:
I've also found that with one of my special-needs students, he could hardly throw a kick or a punch in the air that looked even remotely correct, but when I stood infront of him with the focus pad or kcik shield, his form improved 500% !
For some, I guess, it is too difficult to conceptualize a target that isn't there and therefore, the strikes in the air would be pointless. This makes kata an interesting experience to teach, as well...
For some, I guess, it is too difficult to conceptualize a target that isn't there and therefore, the strikes in the air would be pointless. This makes kata an interesting experience to teach, as well...
upnorthkyosa said:
I guess the biggest problem I have with this type of training is that it often feels like one is training half a technique. The initiation is there, but everything after the Newtonian recoil is missing. What ends up happening is that one's balance, when actually striking something gets skewed.
I've also found that the opposite happens when one trains against a striking surface and then attempts to do the strikes in the air. Again, the mechanics change and the body is unbalanced because it has built the mechanics to deal with the strike's recoil.
Thoughts?
Hello upnorth,
Just train both ways.
Tang Soo.
Michael Tabone
I guess the biggest problem I have with this type of training is that it often feels like one is training half a technique. The initiation is there, but everything after the Newtonian recoil is missing. What ends up happening is that one's balance, when actually striking something gets skewed.
I've also found that the opposite happens when one trains against a striking surface and then attempts to do the strikes in the air. Again, the mechanics change and the body is unbalanced because it has built the mechanics to deal with the strike's recoil.
Thoughts?
Hello upnorth,
Just train both ways.
Tang Soo.
Michael Tabone
OP
- Thread Starter
- #13
mtabone said:
Why? I mean no offense with this question Michael. I just feel that once a student gets a basic understanding of the mechanics of technique, making it faster, more efficient, more powerful, and better balanced come more easily and more realistically with resistence.
I personally practice techniques in the air only when I do not have a holder or an uke. Otherwise I'm always tearing it into something. Wouldn't you think that more of the former and less of the latter would only lead to bad habits when it comes to actually applying the technique?
Upnorthkyosa said:
I personally practice techniques in the air only when I do not have a holder or an uke. Otherwise I'm always tearing it into something. Wouldn't you think that more of the former and less of the latter would only lead to bad habits when it comes to actually applying the technique?
Yes but not necessarily. That is why I train both.
Techniques in the air are actually better for me (I have R.A. = Rheumatoid Arthritis. I do an impact drill now, I pay for it later.) But I do not necessarily believe that doing techniques in the air causes bad habits to form. Any training can cause bad habits. Practice makes permanent. Form and function are not in conflict in Tang Soo Do. I believe that one can train a side kick for instance a million times in the air and a million times on a bag and not that much of a difference is needed between the two. That bag is going to fly if it happens to be in the way. Now, in learning distance needed, correct position, resistance training is most certainly needed. As far as the kick, its the same kick.
Where I will most definitely agree with you are grabs, self defense, grappling, throws, joint locks, excreta you might think you have them without a partner, but its a whole new world with someone there
Btw air practice would also incorporate hyung practice too are you suggesting that hyung (kata or form for you non Tang Soo Do people) is worthless unless I have positioned punching bags, board holders, grabbers and attackers every where I go in the form, so that this way I will always encounter resistance?
Thoughts?
TANG SOO!!!
M.Tabone
I personally practice techniques in the air only when I do not have a holder or an uke. Otherwise I'm always tearing it into something. Wouldn't you think that more of the former and less of the latter would only lead to bad habits when it comes to actually applying the technique?
Yes but not necessarily. That is why I train both.
Techniques in the air are actually better for me (I have R.A. = Rheumatoid Arthritis. I do an impact drill now, I pay for it later.) But I do not necessarily believe that doing techniques in the air causes bad habits to form. Any training can cause bad habits. Practice makes permanent. Form and function are not in conflict in Tang Soo Do. I believe that one can train a side kick for instance a million times in the air and a million times on a bag and not that much of a difference is needed between the two. That bag is going to fly if it happens to be in the way. Now, in learning distance needed, correct position, resistance training is most certainly needed. As far as the kick, its the same kick.
Where I will most definitely agree with you are grabs, self defense, grappling, throws, joint locks, excreta you might think you have them without a partner, but its a whole new world with someone there
Btw air practice would also incorporate hyung practice too are you suggesting that hyung (kata or form for you non Tang Soo Do people) is worthless unless I have positioned punching bags, board holders, grabbers and attackers every where I go in the form, so that this way I will always encounter resistance?
Thoughts?
TANG SOO!!!
M.Tabone
OP
- Thread Starter
- #15
mtabone said:
Interesting connection. I was thinking more along the lines of basics with this one. Anyway, I view hyung more like mnemotic devices for self defense. Sure, practicing them alone can help you some with technique, but will that ever be enough?
The answer, IMHO, is no. If you just practice the kata and never do the applications its like saying ROYGBIV and never filling in the blanks. It looses its meaning.
So, I guess, the very first step is still learning it with no resistence and then increasing the resistence as one becomes more experienced.
Master Jay S. Penfil
Blue Belt
Greetings to all,
As usual John, you have established another great thread.
Here is what I think, based on my own experience, and the experiences of many 30+ year practitioners that I have known and trained with over the years.
As was stated by several others, it is necessary to learn correct form prior to impacting a target with a technique. We learn and hone our technique first in the air, and then striking equipment and finally other training partners.
Those who I have seen who either train with resistance rarely or not at all look crisp and have sharp technique, but are totally ineffective because they have not learned about distance and timing.
If John, you choose to train with impact to excess over an extended period of time, you chance joint damage. We have a tendency to want to over-train ourselves to a point of having what I call the; RAMBO MANTALLITY. Unfortunately, our minds are usually able to handle far more then our bodies, and over the years we develop chronic injuries in our joints. I know many of my senior in Tang Soo Do, Shotokan and Isshinryu that established reputations for being the last guy that you would want to square off in front of in the ring, but in later years had to have knee and or hip replacements. Your joints come with only so many miles of wear, just like the tires on your car. Some of us, due to good genetics will see more mileage then others with the same training schedules, but like it or not, at some point your body will let you know when you are ready for those parts to be replaced
I have studied a large number of Chinese masters who are well into their 80s and 90s who are still training every day, and still have all of their original parts, with NO joint pain anywhere in their bodies. The primary difference in their training and the training that we have grown up with is the use of impacting equipment. They dont use any. They do two man training exercises in order to develop proper depth perception, distance and timing, but they dont abuse their bodies.
I discontinued heavy-bag training years ago. I no longer have students complaining of sore knees or elbows. We still use handheld striking pads, and makawaras, but we dont do thousands of repetitions like we did in past years.
We do partner training in almost every class with basics and Hyung as we work my favorite stuff (Bunkai, Henka and Oyo). It is crucial to work technique with others for timing distance and follow-through.
I think that, as some of the others stated, a good mix of partner-training, air-training and some impact-training will yield the results that we all want; the ability to perform in such a way that looks good, and is effective at the same time
Your thoughts?
Yours in Tang Soo Do
Master Jay S. Penfil
TANG SOO!!!
P.S. How are we coming with the seminar arrangements for November?
Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo,
You mentioned your Gup Training manual. I like to collect Gup and Dan manuals from different Tang Soo Do associations to compare what everyone is doing. If you could contact me and arrange for me to receive your manuals, I would greatly appreciate it. I can be reached at:
248-561-5700-cell
or
[email protected]
Thank you!!!
As usual John, you have established another great thread.
Here is what I think, based on my own experience, and the experiences of many 30+ year practitioners that I have known and trained with over the years.
As was stated by several others, it is necessary to learn correct form prior to impacting a target with a technique. We learn and hone our technique first in the air, and then striking equipment and finally other training partners.
Those who I have seen who either train with resistance rarely or not at all look crisp and have sharp technique, but are totally ineffective because they have not learned about distance and timing.
If John, you choose to train with impact to excess over an extended period of time, you chance joint damage. We have a tendency to want to over-train ourselves to a point of having what I call the; RAMBO MANTALLITY. Unfortunately, our minds are usually able to handle far more then our bodies, and over the years we develop chronic injuries in our joints. I know many of my senior in Tang Soo Do, Shotokan and Isshinryu that established reputations for being the last guy that you would want to square off in front of in the ring, but in later years had to have knee and or hip replacements. Your joints come with only so many miles of wear, just like the tires on your car. Some of us, due to good genetics will see more mileage then others with the same training schedules, but like it or not, at some point your body will let you know when you are ready for those parts to be replaced
I have studied a large number of Chinese masters who are well into their 80s and 90s who are still training every day, and still have all of their original parts, with NO joint pain anywhere in their bodies. The primary difference in their training and the training that we have grown up with is the use of impacting equipment. They dont use any. They do two man training exercises in order to develop proper depth perception, distance and timing, but they dont abuse their bodies.
I discontinued heavy-bag training years ago. I no longer have students complaining of sore knees or elbows. We still use handheld striking pads, and makawaras, but we dont do thousands of repetitions like we did in past years.
We do partner training in almost every class with basics and Hyung as we work my favorite stuff (Bunkai, Henka and Oyo). It is crucial to work technique with others for timing distance and follow-through.
I think that, as some of the others stated, a good mix of partner-training, air-training and some impact-training will yield the results that we all want; the ability to perform in such a way that looks good, and is effective at the same time
Your thoughts?
Yours in Tang Soo Do
Master Jay S. Penfil
TANG SOO!!!
P.S. How are we coming with the seminar arrangements for November?
Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo,
You mentioned your Gup Training manual. I like to collect Gup and Dan manuals from different Tang Soo Do associations to compare what everyone is doing. If you could contact me and arrange for me to receive your manuals, I would greatly appreciate it. I can be reached at:
248-561-5700-cell
or
[email protected]
Thank you!!!
Brother John
Senior Master
upnorthkyosa said:
I see both ways as being valid and useful. Doing your basics in the air helps you to really get the proper form down, and good form leads to good function. Then it takes it to another level when you use resistance; wether that be in the form of another person or pads or a bag; because then you need to be able to adapt the form to meet the function, to alter things w/in the flow of action.
I see both as being very beneficial.
Your Brother
John
OP
- Thread Starter
- #18
Master Jay S. Penfil said:
Master Penfil
Thanks for your reply. I've heard that anything done to excess will end up damaging the body. I've also read that techniques in the air can also be hard on the joints because of the constant resistenceless stretching done to various body parts. Perhaps it makes the most sense to mix it up and not focus solely one one or the other. I'm not sure.
However, I did read a study on the benefits of jumping and other body weight exercises (I'll see if I can dig up an online citation) that stated that these things not only build muscle, but they build the bone mass to sustain that muscle...resulting in fewer ligament, tendon, and muscle injuries. The study also stated that these exercises helped stave off the effects of osteoporosis, even in older folks who were already developing the condition. I wonder if this explains the longevity of many okinawan masters who regularly trained with impact?
Anyway, here is one example from my own training. When training the turning back kick, I would often put a peice of tape on the wall and work the technique so that the striking surface of my foot would always perfectly align with the tape mark. When kicking the pad, however, I found that my distance and timing was off considerably because the actual contact point of technique was different from the execution point of doing it in the air. In sparring, this resulted in glancing blows or complete misses. In order to correct this, I changed the tape drill abit. I slowed the technique down and instead of going to the point of full extension, I worked the actual point in the technique where it would make contact with a target. It probably looked funny, working super slow techniques on a peice of tape on the wall, but it worked. My power on the kicking sheild increased, so did my accuracy, and so did the techniques effectiveness in sparring.
Thoughts?
upnorthkyosa
ps - I'll give you a call regarding the seminar in a little while.
Master Jay S. Penfil
Blue Belt
Hello Mr. Tabone,
I enjoyed the time that we spent during the Summer Camp weekend!!! I am looking forward to seeing you at the International Championships in Atlantic City as well. Grandmaster Kim and I will arrive on Friday afternoon.
Please give my regards to a everyone at the dojang!!!
Yours in Tang Soo Do,
Master Jay S. Penfil
TANG SOO!!!
I enjoyed the time that we spent during the Summer Camp weekend!!! I am looking forward to seeing you at the International Championships in Atlantic City as well. Grandmaster Kim and I will arrive on Friday afternoon.
Please give my regards to a everyone at the dojang!!!
Yours in Tang Soo Do,
Master Jay S. Penfil
TANG SOO!!!
