Bad instructor. What to do????

[Buka]

An observation.

There are some really bad Instructors in our fields. And bad in a lot of different ways. I think what we tend to do when we read something like the OP is to picture the situation as it would be in our own school.

But I'm still waiting on the OP to answer if he himself trains.

 

[Tez3]

How would the rank of the instructors make for an awkward conversation?

Well, when you have a much senior instructor coming to the class of a lower ranked instructor and telling students they are doing techniques incorrectly which prompts a parent to complain to the class instructor, there is going to have to be an awkward conversation between the class instructor and the parent, then the class instructor is going to have to explain to the more senior instructor that he's been complained about ( he could not tell him of course but that would make for future awkwardness too).

Think military ranks, a colonel comes in to take a class of civvy kids, usually a captain takes it. Colonel tells kids they are doing it all wrong, parent complains to captain and captain has to tell the colonel the parent complained about the colonel. He also has to explain to parent either that he, the captain's, teaching is wrong or he has to tell parent the colonel doesn't know what he's talking about. Interesting.

 

[drop bear]

Many ways to deal with a situation. Telling off a senior rank may not be the best way. I favour a more diplomatic approach in this type of situation. It is always good policy to be professional with whomever you deal with but that is my approach. I acknowledge that not everyone looks at it that way..

Luckily for me I am nobody. I don't have any real investment in my martial arts and can say what I want to who I want. If super coach hates me I don't care.

But say an upcoming fighter in a team. An instructor making a living from a system. Or even a martial artist that has that social standing. May have to think of the consequences a lot more before he can speak up.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Well, when you have a much senior instructor coming to the class of a lower ranked instructor and telling students they are doing techniques incorrectly which prompts a parent to complain to the class instructor, there is going to have to be an awkward conversation between the class instructor and the parent, then the class instructor is going to have to explain to the more senior instructor that he's been complained about ( he could not tell him of course but that would make for future awkwardness too).

Think military ranks, a colonel comes in to take a class of civvy kids, usually a captain takes it. Colonel tells kids they are doing it all wrong, parent complains to captain and captain has to tell the colonel the parent complained about the colonel. He also has to explain to parent either that he, the captain's, teaching is wrong or he has to tell parent the colonel doesn't know what he's talking about. Interesting.

I appreciate that it can potentially lead to an awkward discussion but there are ways to mitigate the awkwardness.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Luckily for me I am nobody. I don't have any real investment in my martial arts and can say what I want to who I want. If super coach hates me I don't care.

But say an upcoming fighter in a team. An instructor making a living from a system. Or even a martial artist that has that social standing. May have to think of the consequences a lot more before he can speak up.

I am not advocating telling the senior rank off. That is never the best solution to tell your superior off if you want to remain in the organization. There are more diplomatic ways to regulate the situation.

 

[Tez3]

I appreciate that it can potentially lead to an awkward discussion but there are ways to mitigate the awkwardness.

it's not awkwardness as in a social faux pas but the awkwardness where people are paying money for instruction and one of those instructors is clearly wrong. If it's the senior instructor he should be told, no? If it's the class instructor then the class will have to be retaught.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't know man, take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for example. We have kids whom their parents live vicariously through them, so they go crazy and make their kids start training at age 4. At age 6, they start getting serious with competitions = 5-6 days of training at 1-2 hours per day + 3 hours of competition training on Sat or Sun (sometimes both). 1 of our 12 year olds, can fill up 2000 s/q feet of mat space with his medals, belts, sword trophies and trophy trophies (photo op).

Many of these kids train from age 4-16 = 12 years....earning only kids' colored belts. At age 16 is when they get adult rankings....which they have to prove themselves first in adult classes for many months (by tapping lots of adults)....then they earn a BLUE belt at 16.....(white, blue, purple, brown, black). These 14-16 year olds will usually decimate all of the Adult White belts to some of the Adult Blues.....up to 30-40 lbs heavier. Like if a new guy just walked off the streets to try it out, average adult in good shape.....will get tapped out every 60-120 seconds if these kids wanted to.

I think BJJ and other wrestlers have more fight in them than what is found at Karate,TKD, and Kung Fu schools. You aren't going to have many "spirit of the warrior" students in these school. You would be fortunate to have 5 or 6 that took it serious enough to see martial arts as a fighting tool.

This is the norm. None of these punches and kicks is going to knock the wind out of their opponent. As light as it is I'm not even sure why they are wearing chest protectors.

I don't know about the any where else but in the US, I think parents try to protect their child too much. My opinion is that it's better for a child to experience getting the wind knocked out of them, just so they know how to deal with it.

 

[JR 137]

I think BJJ and other wrestlers have more fight in them than what is found at Karate,TKD, and Kung Fu schools. You aren't going to have many "spirit of the warrior" students in these school. You would be fortunate to have 5 or 6 that took it serious enough to see martial arts as a fighting tool.

This is the norm. None of these punches and kicks is going to knock the wind out of their opponent. As light as it is I'm not even sure why they are wearing chest protectors.

I don't know about the any where else but in the US, I think parents try to protect their child too much. My opinion is that it's better for a child to experience getting the wind knocked out of them, just so they know how to deal with it.

What’s the gear for? So if anyone actually does get hurt, in court the owner can say and show he did everything he reasonably could to protect the student. He’ll show mandated safety gear and argue inherent risk rather than negligence or whatever legal term it would be. That’s realistically the only reason for it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What’s the gear for? So if anyone actually does get hurt, in court the owner can say and show he did everything he reasonably could to protect the student. He’ll show mandated safety gear and argue inherent risk rather than negligence or whatever legal term it would be. That’s realistically the only reason for it.

Personally I think they do it to calm the parent's minds. As soft as those kids are hitting and kick, they are more likely to get injured from using bad fist structure and bad technique.

 

[JR 137]

Personally I think they do it to calm the parent's minds. As soft as those kids are hitting and kick, they are more likely to get injured from using bad fist structure and bad technique.

Good call. There’s a young female student about 12 years old that sticks out in mind now that you mention it. She punches with an open fist, as in her fist isn’t fully closed. If she didn’t have gloves on, her hands would be hurting.

So during sparring I tell her to hit me. She’s does this tapping thing, and I say “ok now really hit me.” It forces her to close her hands properly and actually hit. I give her a bunch of free shots, some of them she thinks she got in on her own. I figure if I’m getting stuck sparring with her, we both might as well get something out of it - she gets to practice actually hitting, and I get a little bit of conditioning from being hit repeatedly. I try to give her my ribs and stomach as a target so she can tee off on them. It’s not much for me, but at least it’s something.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Again from what's been said I see no bullying. I see an instructor correcting mistakes a kid is making and telling off kids who are misbehaving. If he wants to pull his kid out that's his choice but again from what I've read I've seen nothing wrong with what that instructor did

Can you not read in the OP that it might, in fact, have been bullying? It sounds to me like you're reading it specifically to see if there's a way it might not be. I agree with doing that, but you have to read for the other possibility, as well. From what I read there, either are possibilities given no more information. It's possible the OP overreacted - we've all done that at times. It's also possible the OP's take of the situation is understated.

 

[dvcochran]

Hi from a newbie!

My son has just attained his Shodan rank at the age of 13 after 6 years or training. He studies Shotokan Karate. He has been with his present club for 2 1/2 years and his instructors are very well thought of in the community.

Last night, another senior grade (but not an instructor at the club) took the class as the normal instructor was away.

It was my son's first night as a black-belt and he was really looking forward to it.

The issue is that the instructor continually picked on my son all night. He asked him to perform a kata in front of the class, which was great, however, when he finished (he did it really well by the way) he told him that he had been stepping incorrectly throughout the entire routine and performing it all wrong!

He had only graded with this kata (under an 8th Dan Jananese Sensie) two days before. He then went on to tell him he was not doing it correctly and he was being 'dangerous'.

He also completely lost his cool with some very junior members of the club, shouting at them and telling them they were not paying attention! This never happens with the regular instructor. The kids looked completely deflated.

I was an inch away from telling my son to 'bow-out' and simply taking him home.

I know the guy is wrong, but the question is what was his motivation to act that way? Is he hungry for 'power' or is there something else to it? He has taken the class a couple of times before and I have noticed his 'lack of composure and patience'.

Do I mention it to the actual sensie in order that he does not let him train the class again, or do I just keep my mouth shut?

My son also suffers with auditory processing disorder, which makes it difficult for him to hear with any background noise.

The instructor has a foreign accent and is (at times) quite hard to understand.

Just as a bit of background, most of the other adult students also had a look of disappointment on their faces when he stepped up to instruct.

Just don't know what to do for the best. I was the only parent there and so I couldn't really discuss it. Am I making a fuss over nothing? It completely ruined his evening and did nothing to teach the lower grades any respect.

It is not always good and healthy to take up for our kids. Especially a young teenager that just attained their black belt. I commend and appreciate you for reaching out to this forum, welcome. As parent I am pretty sure you watch your kid the most when working out and are biased to their performance. It is natural. A big, big part of most traditional Martial Arts is the Do or Way. It is the emotional element. Balance or Ying-Yang is also a big, big part of most TMA. My Grand Master says it best when he says "when a relationship is all bad it is bad, when a relationship is all good it is bad. It is through the balance, pleasure, and adversity of both that we find happiness. So maybe there is a teaching moment for both you and your son here. Help him handle the adversity without it defining him in a negative way. Water off a ducks back. Help him to reflect on what was said and ask if there is any validity to the alternate instructor's critique. Whether they said it the "way" you think they should have said it or not. There should always be decorum in a class but that doesn't mean you will always like what you hear.
An alternate thought; is this a very new instructor who is really excited and trying to prove their worth? Maybe they see something extra in your kid and are just trying to pull it out albeit a little rough around the edges. As you said, they are not the 8th Dan so maybe cut them some slack and ask yourself if you are trying to fit everyone and everything into the exact same mold. It will never or should never happen.
I would suggest you and your son give it some time to settle and reflect on things. May keep a knee-jerk reaction form happening. Always hard to take those back (been there-done that). After some time or if it consistently keeps happenig with the same instructor, it may be time to talk to his GM. I would add this though, if there are changes that should be happening with your son and they are not then both sides are culpable so it gets to be a little tenuous. If you feel strongly that the hearing deficit is contributing to this problem, make certain you do the new instructor a good service and try talking through it with them first. Then if there is no resolution certainly talk to the GM. He will appreciate your efforts in trying to deal with the new instructor. Should be a learning lesson for everyone.

 

[dvcochran]

I think BJJ and other wrestlers have more fight in them than what is found at Karate,TKD, and Kung Fu schools. You aren't going to have many "spirit of the warrior" students in these school. You would be fortunate to have 5 or 6 that took it serious enough to see martial arts as a fighting tool.

This is the norm. None of these punches and kicks is going to knock the wind out of their opponent. As light as it is I'm not even sure why they are wearing chest protectors.

I don't know about the any where else but in the US, I think parents try to protect their child too much. My opinion is that it's better for a child to experience getting the wind knocked out of them, just so they know how to deal with it.

Yea, if they were not kids I would have a hard time calling that sparring. I hate a body shot like that at any age being called a point, Especially when they have gear on.

I have been knocked out WITH headgear on and ribs broken WITH a hogu on so I am a big, big proponent of wearing sparring gear. It was bad enough when I was wearing them. Makes things much, much more realistic.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do I mention it to the actual sensie in order that he does not let him train the class again, or do I just keep my mouth shut?

It's a good opportunity for your son to handle this case. He will face situation like this a lot when he steps into the society. You can't protect him all your life. You have to let him to face it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have been knocked out WITH headgear on and ribs broken WITH a hogu on so I am a big, big proponent of wearing sparring gear.

I don't know if this was your case, but sometimes people tend to hit and kick harder than they should when they see that their sparring partner wears gear. The gear gives the feeling that now you can kick and punch as hard has you want your sparring partner will be ok.

It's sort of like seeing a person wearing a red man suit. When you see that, you don't think; hit and kick softer.

It just occurred to me, that if the student is getting feedback on their strikes by how their sparring partner reacts, then that may encourage them to hit harder when they see that uncomfortable look that we all get after someone has landed a decent shot. It doesn't have to be a death blow type power shot, but it only has to be solid enough where you can see that your partner doesn't like it. Land a good face shot even a soft one without gear and you'll see your opponent dislike it. Hit too hard and your opponent's face turns into the "don't hit me that hard response"

 

[Tez3]

Hit too hard and your opponent's face turns into the "don't hit me that hard response

I find often it actually turns into 'you hit me that hard I'm going to hit you harder'.

He will appreciate your efforts in trying to deal with the new instructor.

The OP did say the instructor wasn't from that school though, he wasn't a new instructor but rather a guest one. Hence my reflection about one of the instructors being wrong in how they teach kata.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The OP did say the instructor wasn't from that school though, he wasn't a new instructor but rather a guest one. Hence my reflection about one of the instructors being wrong in how they teach kata.

I'm wondering if it's not a matter of either being wrong, but two different opinions on parts of the kata. I know that the Classical forms within NGA can differ significantly between schools, even within the same association. In any case, a guest instructor shouldn't be telling students they're doing something wrong that they've recently been tested on (and, thus, passed by someone who's expected to be competent to judge that), when it's as much as was expressed in the OP. (I'm okay, of course, with them pointing out the occasional error - but not with wholesale correction like that.) They aren't going to have a positive effect in a single class with that, and if they think it needs correcting, the place to work on it is with the regular instructor.

 

[Tez3]

I'm wondering if it's not a matter of either being wrong, but two different opinions on parts of the kata. I know that the Classical forms within NGA can differ significantly between schools, even within the same association. In any case, a guest instructor shouldn't be telling students they're doing something wrong that they've recently been tested on (and, thus, passed by someone who's expected to be competent to judge that), when it's as much as was expressed in the OP. (I'm okay, of course, with them pointing out the occasional error - but not with wholesale correction like that.) They aren't going to have a positive effect in a single class with that, and if they think it needs correcting, the place to work on it is with the regular instructor.

Unless of course the guest instructor was brought in just to see what the regular instructor was teaching? The guest instructor probably didn't know that the lad had just been graded, it may be too that someone wanted to see if the grading authority was doing it's job and the grades were correct. Lots of possibilities that can only be sorted by asking, it's nice we have a new poster but in the first instance questions are best answered by the chief instructor unless of course the OP already has doubts and wanted other opinions?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Unless of course the guest instructor was brought in just to see what the regular instructor was teaching? The guest instructor probably didn't know that the lad had just been graded, it may be too that someone wanted to see if the grading authority was doing it's job and the grades were correct. Lots of possibilities that can only be sorted by asking, it's nice we have a new poster but in the first instance questions are best answered by the chief instructor unless of course the OP already has doubts and wanted other opinions?

I agree there are reasons a guest instructor might be there to check things out. But correcting large numbers of things in a single day isn't likely to have any positive effect when the regular instructor will be back teaching that class next time. Those corrections - if the point was to check out the instructor - should be given to the instructor or CI, or to someone in the organization.

As for him being newly graded, the oh-so-stiff belt that has to be bent into a knot, rather than tied, usually gives that away.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't know if this was your case, but sometimes people tend to hit and kick harder than they should when they see that their sparring partner wears gear. The gear gives the feeling that now you can kick and punch as hard has you want your sparring partner will be ok.

It's sort of like seeing a person wearing a red man suit. When you see that, you don't think; hit and kick softer.

It just occurred to me, that if the student is getting feedback on their strikes by how their sparring partner reacts, then that may encourage them to hit harder when they see that uncomfortable look that we all get after someone has landed a decent shot. It doesn't have to be a death blow type power shot, but it only has to be solid enough where you can see that your partner doesn't like it. Land a good face shot even a soft one without gear and you'll see your opponent dislike it. Hit too hard and your opponent's face turns into the "don't hit me that hard response"

This gear looks similar to what I have seen used in Kali competitions where knives with dull, blunt metal blades are used. The scoring is accrued by the number of slices and where they are made. So yes, I would want that level of protection. It is more mobile than it appears. And it is all up fighting not grappling.
I have also seen something similar in self defense classes where someone is literally a live punching bag.

I appreciate the speed and calculation involved in point-stop sparring competitions but that is where it stops. When you are in a full contact match of whatever style (boxing, wrestling, MA) it forces yours senses into a higher plane because you should know that you really, really can get hit hard, knocked down, or knocked out or something worse.
That uncomfortable expression is part of the conditioning that doesn't always occur enough at some schools. We all need to learn how to give and take a punch. The gear is a way to practice both repeatedly and still go to work the next day and look and walk normal.
With all the talk on the forum about using dance as a comparison to forms competition I will use one of my favorite sayings used during sparring sessions. "This isn't ballet class".