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Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by Grenadier, Oct 26, 2016.

  1. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    Admin's Note:

    Some of you haven't exactly been on your best behavior here. While debate, disagreements, and yes, even some heat may be allowed, name-calling and style bashing are flat-out prohibited.

    Please keep your discussion civil, and on-topic. Refusal to do so will result in the issuance of warning points that will lead to the suspension or banning of your account.
     
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  2. wingchun100

    wingchun100 Senior Master

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    Where would we see our warning points? On my profile all I see are trophy points.
     
  3. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    Did that thread get deleted?
     
  4. wingchun100

    wingchun100 Senior Master

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    Must have been mine: "When It is No Longer 'Wing Chun.'"
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Did that one go downhill? I read (and responded) in the first day or two, and it seemed to actually be generating some interesting discussion at first.
     
  6. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    The thread is currently under review.
     
  7. wingchun100

    wingchun100 Senior Master

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    It degenerated into insults as to whose lineage was "real" or "broken." Some people tried to say that all should get credit as having something meaningful to contribute to WC, but...not everyone agreed.
     
  8. wingchun100

    wingchun100 Senior Master

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    I will admit that I made at least one remark in there that could have been...less than friendly/professional regarding someone's interpretation of Chi Sao. It was more the wording that I chose than the sentiment, because I still believe what they wrote was way off. However, there are ways to disagree without being insulting. If I am considered one of the culprits, then I do apologize. I should have thought through how I wrote that reply better.
     
  9. wtxs

    wtxs Brown Belt

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    Both sides (if there is one) are to shoulder the blame, it is very hard to think of what to write when your brain is rattling from all that :banghead::banghead::banghead:
     
  10. wingchun100

    wingchun100 Senior Master

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    I know, but I can't control anyone's words except my own. So I am accepting my responsibility.
     
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  11. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    Actually, it was Transk that went a little overboard. Then he stopped posting. I assumed a moderator had sent him a warning via PM. The moderation is not at all transparent.
     
  12. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Funny how that thread devolved. In my experience the WC people here get on pretty well ... except for two in particular. Considering their level of arrogance, it's no wonder some of the rest get worked up. Frankly, I wish they'd go back to that other forum where they came from.
     
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  13. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    LOL, note the key term 'here'.
    In my experience most of the WC people I have actual contact with get on pretty well.
    When having had contact the discussion is very far more pleasant and open.
    I can only assume the ego and one-upmanship give way to respect by feeling and then a desire to understand what did work and why as well what didn't and why.
    But until then 'You are wrong' will prevail with some.
     
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  14. Marnetmar

    Marnetmar Black Belt

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    I still fail to understand the rationale of people flaunting the personal politics they have with each other in front of a captive audience instead of just having a discussion through private message. There's no reason to be so spiteful.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
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  15. Kickboxer101

    Kickboxer101 Master Black Belt

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    There's also the online factor. People sometimes say things online that they probably wouldn't say in person because of just human nature but online people feel they can say what they like since its likely they'll never meet that person
     
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  16. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    In all fairness, I have learned from both Guy and LFJ when they care to actually take the time to post something technical and minimize the "superiority complex." They are both knowledgeable. Guy was showing signs that our message was getting through and he seemed to be making an effort to tone it down some. I guess the "ball is in their court" now. Then can choose to actually do as I suggested and start a thread that talks about the technical differences between WSLVT and everyone else's Wing Chun in the Ip Man lineage and why they think those differences could not be due to WSL's own refinements or innovations of the system based on his own talent and experience. Or they can choose to ignore that and wait for the next thread so they can come along and insult and tick everyone off again. I'm guessing they will choose the 2nd option, but one can always hope! ;)
     
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  17. guy b

    guy b 2nd Black Belt

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    Overall looking at comments above they do not ring true to me in terms of the way that threads actually progress, or in terms of the way I feel about VT and wing chun practitioners from other YM students.

    I don't feel arrogant about VT, having been a recent convert from another branch of wing chun which turned out to be incoherent and non functional. I feel more like an idiot who wasted a lot of time on something worthless than someone with all of the answers. I do feel lucky and I also feel like I have a lot of catching up to do. But equally I am not the type of person to pretend things look great when to me they don't for the purpose of sparing someone else's feelings. If I see something in a clip or someone describes something to me that sounds stupid, then I will tend to mention it, and will try to find out why. I try to make my decisions based upon evidence and I don't have any particular loyalty to names or sifus. I would change what I do in a second if someone showed me a better way.

    There is zero intention on my part to intentionally insult anyone and I personally cannot imagine being insulted by anyone pointing out potential issues with systemic organisation, understanding and coherence of any system in which I trained. Rather I would tend to be motivated to investigate what they said and to reply after giving it some thought and testing. Being invested in something to the extent that you would fail to see reality in order to protect it is a recipe for failure in martial arts and in life.

    In terms of the perception of others here, I think that when anger is this high it is very hard for people to read and digest information without bias, and to respond in a fresh way. People tend to group together to answer any perceived threat to the status quo, and very few times do I feel that anyone has actually read anything I wrote with fresh eyes. I think that posts on WSL VT have become like a red button which cause people to react rudely, abruptly, to switch off their logical or perceptive faculties, and basically to join in the mob response to eliminate different opinion. The most obvious example of this is the person above who is basically asking for people whose opinions he doesn't like to leave the forum. But there are other people who just seem to enjoy argument for its own sake without ever getting anywhere, or who respond to any non agreeable position with silence or snarky one liners. There are even people who take and use information provided openly and then join in the attack when discussion gets heated.

    All I would ask of these people is that when they read something that makes the red mist start to descend, or that makes them want to grab a pitchfork and join the mob, they take the time to imagine that they are beginners in wing chun who don't know anyone, who have no pre-conceived ideas, and who have with an evidence based approach to getting the most from their practice.

    If that isn't possible then i don't think that any amount of tip toeing around trying to be non offensive to everyone is going to help anyone learn anything. And I think that has to be the goal of forums at the end of the day.
     
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  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    As someone from outside the WC community, Guy, I have seen posts of yours where it appeared you were stating absolutes. It appeared you were telling others their view of WC/VT was flawed and yours was the accurate view, in spite of what seemed reasonable arguments on both sides. If that was not your intention, then perhaps it's a matter of miscommunication.

    Just an observation from someone who likes to learn.
     
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  19. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    You need to let it go man. Stop beating yourself up.
     
  20. wingchun100

    wingchun100 Senior Master

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    Uh...I'm not. I was responding to what the person before me said about how other people equally got out of hand. I am not accountable for how others act...only myself.
     

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