Asking To Test

[PhotonGuy]

I suppose that's true (especially if that holds you back in the curriculum). I never felt it that way. But if a student feels stuck because they haven't tested, I think they ought to ask for help with that problem.

Basically that's what I've been saying, for the last five and a half or so years since I've joined this forum. If you're stuck at a certain rank you want to promote beyond then there is nothing wrong with talking to your sensei about it, asking stuff such as what you need to do, what you need to work on to promote to the next rank, whether that next rank be first dan or whatever else.

Lets say I want to test for an be promoted to first dan and so I ask my sensei what I need to do. My sensei says I need to work on my kata Ananko. In that case I am going to bust my butt working on Ananko so that I can test and I can pass and earn first dan.

The problem is when asking your sensei such stuff is frowned upon because "students aren't supposed to want to earn rank." Not all students do care about earning rank, obviously, but there are those that do and there is nothing wrong with having the goal of eventually earning a certain rank.

 

[Tez3]

The problem is when asking your sensei such stuff is frowned upon because "students aren't supposed to want to earn rank."

Those are some very big generalisations.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Worse things happened with videos. My former organization and current one used to have videos of everything for each rank. Great idea, until people were learning from them and telling the teachers they were wrong. The best one was a guy telling the head of my former organization that he was wrong during a promotional test. He said to our head guy “the guy in the video said to do it like this.” Our head guy did all he could do to not strangle the student and said “do you know who the guy in the video is?” and walked away. That was the final straw - the unsold videos just went away. The student had no clue that the head guy was the guy in the video. Similar stuff happened in my current organization.

I believe this is why my Master doesn't give these out much. He wants people to come to class and learn from him, instead of using resources as an opportunity to skip class because they can study at home.



We've recently added a "new" set of forms to our curriculum, which are the official forms as standardized by our organization. These are posted online, and I am finding them online so I can stay ahead of the students (since I am one of the instructors). I've treated this as a homework project. When I go to class, he checks my progress and then gives me his take on a few of the moves. I go back and watch the videos, and I'd say probably 80% of his comments line up with the videos I've seen, and maybe 20% he's telling me something different. I figure that the best course of action is to do what my Master says, and if later I go to a different school and they do it the way it is in the video, then I'll adjust.

The BJJ world is awash in instructional videos, whether it's clips from YouTube or lengthy in-depth video courses. Just about every upper belt I work with makes use of them, sometimes extensively. Plenty of the lower belts watch them as well.

I've never, ever seen or heard of a student in BJJ class correcting the teacher based on what they've seen in a video. (I'm not sure I've ever seen a BJJ student correct the teacher in class regardless, but definitely not based on a video.)

Perhaps it's because BJJ culture generally isn't hung up on one "right" way to do things. Those teachers in the videos all do things differently from each other. The instructors at my gym teach things differently from each other and from the instructors we learned from.

I also don't think there's much of a problem with students skipping class because they have videos. You can watch video, but you don't get the benefits until you come to the gym and try the new material on the mats against your sparring partners.

 

[skribs]

The BJJ world is awash in instructional videos, whether it's clips from YouTube or lengthy in-depth video courses. Just about every upper belt I work with makes use of them, sometimes extensively. Plenty of the lower belts watch them as well.

I've never, ever seen or heard of a student in BJJ class correcting the teacher based on what they've seen in a video. (I'm not sure I've ever seen a BJJ student correct the teacher in class regardless, but definitely not based on a video.)

Perhaps it's because BJJ culture generally isn't hung up on one "right" way to do things. Those teachers in the videos all do things differently from each other. The instructors at my gym teach things differently from each other and from the instructors we learned from.

I also don't think there's much of a problem with students skipping class because they have videos. You can watch video, but you don't get the benefits until you come to the gym and try the new material on the mats against your sparring partners.

Except things like forms are very easy to practice without a partner.

 

[dvcochran]

Except things like forms are very easy to practice without a partner.

You can learn or brush up on the moves of a form from video but there is a lot you need to be in a class to learn.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Those are some very big generalisations.

I read that as him saying it’s a problem when it happens, not that it generally happens. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding your post - I’m really tired, and the British accent throws me off.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The BJJ world is awash in instructional videos, whether it's clips from YouTube or lengthy in-depth video courses. Just about every upper belt I work with makes use of them, sometimes extensively. Plenty of the lower belts watch them as well.

I've never, ever seen or heard of a student in BJJ class correcting the teacher based on what they've seen in a video. (I'm not sure I've ever seen a BJJ student correct the teacher in class regardless, but definitely not based on a video.)

Perhaps it's because BJJ culture generally isn't hung up on one "right" way to do things. Those teachers in the videos all do things differently from each other. The instructors at my gym teach things differently from each other and from the instructors we learned from.

I also don't think there's much of a problem with students skipping class because they have videos. You can watch video, but you don't get the benefits until you come to the gym and try the new material on the mats against your sparring partners.

I could see a problem with more classical arts. Instructors (many, not all) in NGA tend to have strong opinions about the right way to do the classical form of the formal techniques. Probably some of the same with kata in other arts.

Take a video with strong opinions on something that’s not objective, and some students will start to have their own opinion, probably whatever the highest ranking person said.

 

[skribs]

You can learn or brush up on the moves of a form from video but there is a lot you need to be in a class to learn.

Depends on how standardized your forms are, and your attention to detail.

 

[Tez3]

I read that as him saying it’s a problem when it happens, not that it generally happens. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding your post - I’m really tired, and the British accent throws me off.

Wot, cos I talk proper like?
(I may kill the next person I hear say 'like' at the end of a sentence, every sentence!)

 

[dvcochran]

Depends on how standardized your forms are, and your attention to detail.

Yes, the Taegueks are so simple they could almost entirely be learned from video. Not true for other color belt forms (Pyang Ahns, Palgwe)or the Yudanja poomsae.

 

[skribs]

Yes, the Taegueks are so simple they could almost entirely be learned from video. Not true for other color belt forms (Pyang Ahns, Palgwe)or the Yudanja poomsae.

Just because you can't doesn't mean others can't.

 

[JR 137]

Just because one can watch a video and practice them on their own doesn’t mean they can get good at them.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes, the Taegueks are so simple they could almost entirely be learned from video. Not true for other color belt forms (Pyang Ahns, Palgwe)or the Yudanja poomsae.

Not really. The taeguek poomsae can be learned from video IF you have a background in similar forms. I did it, in a couple weeks. Because they're all built on the same underlying principals. By the same token, someone who has been properly taught the taeguek forms could learn those other form sets from video.
The taegeuk forms are not really any simpler than the palgwae, turtle, or yudanja forms. You may not personally care for them, but that doesn't change their utility.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Just because one can watch a video and practice them on their own doesn’t mean they can get good at them.

See i have seen a lot of duality for practicing at home. Both encouraging beginners and discouraging beginners from doing it at home. I think the ones discouraging it just assume/presume you cant do it right. Not really relevant but i just thought i would mention the duality of opinions on doing it at home, most people who are good practice a lot in their spare time however.

Just for the sake of knowing, can someone explain the utility of the mentioned forms? Or quote me a post here if it exists on the utility of the forms.

As for the OP point, i honestly dont know why asking is frowned upon, you semi ask to be promoted in any field as you generally express a interest in getting higher responsibility, ask about what qualifications you need to do it, and want to put the effort in to attend any training you need on you part etc. Like you would have to say "i want to be promoted" to be promoted in the end otherwise you wont be/wont know what to do to be. I suppose it might be demanding to grade, but there shouldn't be anything wrong with asking if you are ready and for the criteria for your belt to work on it. You would be pretty annoyed if you got passed up for promotion in your job several times and you think you are ready and you didn't get a reason from your boss. Might be the culture of where most of the belts come from, by that i mean the culture of the styles which use them, in part anyway. I don't personally get it, i think its fine to ask and should be expected.

 

[skribs]

Just because one can watch a video and practice them on their own doesn’t mean they can get good at them.

Taekwondo forms are primarily about replicating the technique of your Master or instructor. Of any art's forms, these are the ones that are easiest to practice on your own and get good at.

I will agree with @Dirty Dog (for once), that knowledge of the forms and the general concepts of Taekwondo forms does help. I will also say that it depends on several things:

1. Your ability to learn visually
2. Your attention to detail
3. The quality of the video you're watching
4. The accuracy of the video you're watching

I'm also not saying it's better or just as good as learning them in class (I actually think having both is the best), or that people should learn them this way. But if I can watch several videos on Pyongwon Hyung and get 99% correct, that saves time in class. Which is especially useful when I am one of two black belts that needs to learn the form, and we've got another 15-20 people in each class who need their forms.

 

[Dirty Dog]

See i have seen a lot of duality for practicing at home. Both encouraging beginners and discouraging beginners from doing it at home. I think the ones discouraging it just assume/presume you cant do it right. Not really relevant but i just thought i would mention the duality of opinions on doing it at home, most people who are good practice a lot in their spare time however.

Beginners should practice what they've been taught. They'll get it part right and part wrong, and the mistakes can be corrected by their instructor until they eventually reach an acceptable level of competency. They shouldn't practice things they see on video but have not been taught. They'll likely get it all wrong and start ingraining bad habits that will take forever to correct.

Just for the sake of knowing, can someone explain the utility of the mentioned forms? Or quote me a post here if it exists on the utility of the forms.

The specific form sets mentioned all teach the same material, but in slightly different ways and in slightly different order. They all share the same roots.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I will agree with @Dirty Dog (for once),

See? You're getting better. Someday you'll learn that you should agree with me all the time.

 

[skribs]

See? You're getting better. Someday you'll learn that you should agree with me all the time.

And I will. When you start saying things I agree with all the time.

 

[JR 137]

Beginners should practice what they've been taught. They'll get it part right and part wrong, and the mistakes can be corrected by their instructor until they eventually reach an acceptable level of competency. They shouldn't practice things they see on video but have not been taught. They'll likely get it all wrong and start ingraining bad habits that will take forever to correct.



The specific form sets mentioned all teach the same material, but in slightly different ways and in slightly different order. They all share the same roots.

That was my point exactly. Videos are for reference, not teaching. Of course people should practice at home; it should be what they’ve been taught by their teacher(s).

And teachers give feedback. Videos don’t. Can I learn a kata from a video? Sure. Can I get really good at it without feedback from a teacher? Depends on the kata and me. A beginner’s kata? Sure. An advanced kata? Nope.

 

[skribs]

The specific form sets mentioned all teach the same material, but in slightly different ways and in slightly different order. They all share the same roots.

I'd argue there are some more subtle differences than that. We are just introducing the Taegeuks, and my Master has had to explain to our black belts that grew up with the Palgwes:

1. What a walking stance is ("no, that's not a cat stance")
2. Some of the footwork, especially in Taeguek #1
3. Variations between the traditional style of our stances in Palgwe and the modern stances used in Taegeuk (for example, the Taegeuk back stance is narrower, shorter, and the front leg is straighter).