Asking To Test

[Gerry Seymour]

Our syllabus is just a list with English and Japanese names. It’s broken down into hand techniques, kicks, kata list, etc. for each rank. And minimum time/class requirements for promotion to the next rank. Minimum time/classes varies for each rank. 10th-5th kyu are 3 months or so, 4th and 3rd are 6 months, 2nd is 9 months, and 1st kyu is 1 year. Not sure on exact numbers, but those seem about right to me.

I have no idea what the book at the front of the dojo is officially called; we call it “the black belt manual.” It’s broken down by each rank up to and including yondan. Each rank starts with the syllabus, then has each standardized thing written out step by step. Ie for kata it’ll tell you each count in English with the Japanese term for the move in parentheses. It sounds like it’ll be a huge binder-like thing, but it’s a softcover book about the size and thickness of a magazine. Just a quick reference manual. I’ve heard everyone gets one either from honbu or my teacher directly when they’re promoted to shodan.

My teacher used to give it to people earlier than shodan, but stopped because an interesting thing happened: people were using it to learn stuff rather than as reference as it was intended. He’d go to teach someone something like a new kata right after promotion and they were pretty much doing the whole thing without being taught. How does a kata you taught yourself to do from a book without pictures look? Pretty awful. He got tired of it.

Worse things happened with videos. My former organization and current one used to have videos of everything for each rank. Great idea, until people were learning from them and telling the teachers they were wrong. The best one was a guy telling the head of my former organization that he was wrong during a promotional test. He said to our head guy “the guy in the video said to do it like this.” Our head guy did all he could do to not strangle the student and said “do you know who the guy in the video is?” and walked away. That was the final straw - the unsold videos just went away. The student had no clue that the head guy was the guy in the video. Similar stuff happened in my current organization.

I think students who try to tell instructors they're wrong because they saw something different in a video (rather than asking, why is it X in the video by that guy?) have issues they need to deal with.

 

[JR 137]

I think students who try to tell instructors they're wrong because they saw something different in a video (rather than asking, why is it X in the video by that guy?) have issues they need to deal with.

I’ve seen some stupid stuff said, but that was by far the stupidest. And it wasn’t a kid. If it was a kid, he would’ve probably just laughed it off.

What would you do if you made videos, went to correct one of your students’ student during a promotional test, and the guy you’re testing and correcting tells you the guy in the video said to do it a different way? I honestly don’t know how I’d react if I didn’t see it coming.

“The guy in the video” was the head guy who was testing him and trying to correct him. The student couldn’t figure that out. The head guy just walked away shaking his head, and the test suddenly became quite a bit harder. Thankfully I wasn’t testing that day and thankfully it wasn’t one of my teacher’s guys.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I’ve seen some stupid stuff said, but that was by far the stupidest. And it wasn’t a kid. If it was a kid, he would’ve probably just laughed it off.

What would you do if you made videos, went to correct one of your students’ student during a promotional test, and the guy you’re testing and correcting tells you the guy in the video said to do it a different way? I honestly don’t know how I’d react if I didn’t see it coming.

“The guy in the video” was the head guy who was testing him and trying to correct him. The student couldn’t figure that out. The head guy just walked away shaking his head, and the test suddenly became quite a bit harder. Thankfully I wasn’t testing that day and thankfully it wasn’t one of my teacher’s guys.

I'm not sure how I'd handle that, either. It seems likely the Dunning-Kruger effect comes rolling in on folks like that, and they decide they know a lot more than they actually do.

I'm okay with students questioning, and even with them disagreeing with an assertion I make (assuming the disagreement is respectful and rational), but just telling the instructor they're wrong???

 

[dvcochran]

I'm not sure how I'd handle that, either. It seems likely the Dunning-Kruger effect comes rolling in on folks like that, and they decide they know a lot more than they actually do.

I'm okay with students questioning, and even with them disagreeing with an assertion I make (assuming the disagreement is respectful and rational), but just telling the instructor they're wrong???

Decorum is becoming a lost art.

 

[JR 137]

Decorum is becoming a lost art.

This was about 15-20 years ago. Before these millennials started becoming a thing. I was in my 20s and he was older than me. The videos were on VHS, if that gives you any idea.

You can fix techniques, you can fix protocol; you fix pretty much anything. But you just can’t fix stupid.

 

[JR 137]

I'm not sure how I'd handle that, either. It seems likely the Dunning-Kruger effect comes rolling in on folks like that, and they decide they know a lot more than they actually do.

I'm okay with students questioning, and even with them disagreeing with an assertion I make (assuming the disagreement is respectful and rational), but just telling the instructor they're wrong???

Time and place for everything. And a way to go about it. My teacher is 7th dan. He’s been training longer than I’ve been alive, literally. There are I think a total of 8 people in our organization that are 7th and 8th dan. Being 1st kyu, I shouldn’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to being right

There’s been a few times when I thought he was wrong. I simply asked after class for clarification. It’s almost always a thing where I was right in my understanding, but not in the context he was teaching it in. Or a matter of preference instead of an outright right vs wrong. Or simply something was changed by

Another great example was I took a class at Kaicho’s dojo. My teacher goes there once a month on average (not including events or the like). During class there, I was corrected on 2 things that I’ve never been corrected on before. Simple things. Before class started I told my teacher what I was corrected on. One thing was “yeah, we need to do a better job looking for that and pointing it out” and the other was “I haven’t heard that before, but it makes sense.” If it was during class and I said “this is what he told me when I was there” it wouldn’t be a good thing. I’d probably get his thinking look and not much more. If I was really stupid and couldn’t move on, well, I don’t know.

He’s always liked me asking questions. But it’s all about the timing and delivery. If there’s one time to not correct your teacher, it’s during a test. Make the change he’s telling you to make, and if you’re positive you’re sure you’re right and he’s wrong, address it later.

 

[dvcochran]

Time and place for everything. And a way to go about it. My teacher is 7th dan. He’s been training longer than I’ve been alive, literally. There are I think a total of 8 people in our organization that are 7th and 8th dan. Being 1st kyu, I shouldn’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to being right

There’s been a few times when I thought he was wrong. I simply asked after class for clarification. It’s almost always a thing where I was right in my understanding, but not in the context he was teaching it in. Or a matter of preference instead of an outright right vs wrong. Or simply something was changed by

Another great example was I took a class at Kaicho’s dojo. My teacher goes there once a month on average (not including events or the like). During class there, I was corrected on 2 things that I’ve never been corrected on before. Simple things. Before class started I told my teacher what I was corrected on. One thing was “yeah, we need to do a better job looking for that and pointing it out” and the other was “I haven’t heard that before, but it makes sense.” If it was during class and I said “this is what he told me when I was there” it wouldn’t be a good thing. I’d probably get his thinking look and not much more. If I was really stupid and couldn’t move on, well, I don’t know.

He’s always liked me asking questions. But it’s all about the timing and delivery. If there’s one time to not correct your teacher, it’s during a test. Make the change he’s telling you to make, and if you’re positive you’re sure you’re right and he’s wrong, address it later.

Really good post.

 

[Headhunter]

Well I had an instance today for asking to test. I know a tests coming up in a couple weeks. I know I was on the list to test but I'd had to miss a few weeks because of illness. Nothing much has been said about the test so I went up to the instructor before class and said hey am I good to go for the test? His answer: yep sure your on the list. Me: cool I'll pay the money at the end of the week.

Easy simple and no dramas or "disrespect"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Decorum is becoming a lost art.

Or we're just turning into crotchety old men.

 

[dvcochran]

Or we're just turning into crotchety old men.

I resemble that remark. Humph

 

[skribs]

My teacher used to give it to people earlier than shodan, but stopped because an interesting thing happened: people were using it to learn stuff rather than as reference as it was intended. He’d go to teach someone something like a new kata right after promotion and they were pretty much doing the whole thing without being taught. How does a kata you taught yourself to do from a book without pictures look? Pretty awful. He got tired of it.

I believe this is why my Master doesn't give these out much. He wants people to come to class and learn from him, instead of using resources as an opportunity to skip class because they can study at home.

Worse things happened with videos. My former organization and current one used to have videos of everything for each rank. Great idea, until people were learning from them and telling the teachers they were wrong. The best one was a guy telling the head of my former organization that he was wrong during a promotional test. He said to our head guy “the guy in the video said to do it like this.” Our head guy did all he could do to not strangle the student and said “do you know who the guy in the video is?” and walked away. That was the final straw - the unsold videos just went away. The student had no clue that the head guy was the guy in the video. Similar stuff happened in my current organization.

We've recently added a "new" set of forms to our curriculum, which are the official forms as standardized by our organization. These are posted online, and I am finding them online so I can stay ahead of the students (since I am one of the instructors). I've treated this as a homework project. When I go to class, he checks my progress and then gives me his take on a few of the moves. I go back and watch the videos, and I'd say probably 80% of his comments line up with the videos I've seen, and maybe 20% he's telling me something different. I figure that the best course of action is to do what my Master says, and if later I go to a different school and they do it the way it is in the video, then I'll adjust.

 

[skribs]

Worse things happened with videos. My former organization and current one used to have videos of everything for each rank. Great idea, until people were learning from them and telling the teachers they were wrong. The best one was a guy telling the head of my former organization that he was wrong during a promotional test. He said to our head guy “the guy in the video said to do it like this.” Our head guy did all he could do to not strangle the student and said “do you know who the guy in the video is?” and walked away. That was the final straw - the unsold videos just went away. The student had no clue that the head guy was the guy in the video. Similar stuff happened in my current organization.

This reminds me of something that happened to me in World of Warcraft. I was real accurate on a fansite called Wowhead, where I would post all sorts of forum posts and articles. (In case you couldn't tell by my time on here, I like forums). So when the Cataclysm expansion launched, I ran some spreadsheets and used my expertise as a healer, in order to write a very well-received post about which enchants are best for healers.

Cut to a few weeks later, I'm arguing with another healer in my guild over the very same thing - which enchants are best for healers. Keep in mind that my name on the forum is my normal online name (Skribs) and my name in-game was my character name (Irezfortips). So when a third healer went to Wowhead to try and help us resolve our argument, he reads back everything I've just been saying.

Me: Did you read that on Wowhead?
Him: Yeah.
Me: By a guy named Skribs?
Him: Yeah...how'd you know that?
Me: You realize I'm Skribs, right? I wrote that.

I was literally quoted as the source material used by a third party arbitrator to settle an argument between me and someone else.

 

[skribs]

Or we're just turning into crotchety old men.

The cracks and pops I hear when I'm stretching would suggest that to be the case.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I would think in almost any school, if you ask about the plateau in learning (rather than why you're stuck at a rank), there would be no issue.

But if you're stuck at a rank you want to advance past that's also a plateau.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I have no idea if this is your situation but I would say be careful about thinking calendar time it the automatic trigger for advancing. What is most important is how much actual training time you have put in for a given calendar time. That said, I see no issue with asking your instructor what the curriculum is to your next belt. Frankly, I feel that should be common informatio for all students.

Well calendar time alone is not sufficient to being promoted. You also have to show up and put in your time and hard work in class. But, if a student is showing up to class on a regular basis and training hard in class and if its taking the student longer than they anticipated to promote, and the student wants to promote, at that point there should be nothing wrong with the student asking or saying something about it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Everyone should have a copy of the syllabus which should include all requirements for each rank and promoting to the next rank, or at least access to one.

Yes, just like in college when you are working on a degree you get a sheet of paper or papers that list all the classes you have to take to get your degree, up to and including the final classes needed for your degree. The same thing with rank advancement in the martial arts, a student should get that same thing telling them what they need for every rank, up to and including first dan.

 

[dvcochran]

Well calendar time alone is not sufficient to being promoted. You also have to show up and put in your time and hard work in class. But, if a student is showing up to class on a regular basis and training hard in class and if its taking the student longer than they anticipated to promote, and the student wants to promote, at that point there should be nothing wrong with the student asking or saying something about it.

True. Done in a respectable way there is nothing wrong with talking to your instructor about it. That is still no guarantee that you automatically get to promote.

 

[PhotonGuy]

True. Done in a respectable way there is nothing wrong with talking to your instructor about it. That is still no guarantee that you automatically get to promote.

Even if you don't get to promote the important thing is to know why you're not promoting and what you need to work on so that you can promote, that's what the student should learn from the instructor by talking about it.

 

[dvcochran]

Yes, just like in college when you are working on a degree you get a sheet of paper or papers that list all the classes you have to take to get your degree, up to and including the final classes needed for your degree. The same thing with rank advancement in the martial arts, a student should get that same thing telling them what they need for every rank, up to and including first dan.

There are still variables. Just like it is harder for some to do well at a written test in certain subject, the same is true in MA. It is simply harder for some. Nothing wrong with that. It is more difficult to help the struggling person navigate the difficulties and succeeded. There is a very old saying we used to use that some will not like but it applies to the situation; if it was easy they would have little girls doing it for half the money.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But if you're stuck at a rank you want to advance past that's also a plateau.

I suppose that's true (especially if that holds you back in the curriculum). I never felt it that way. But if a student feels stuck because they haven't tested, I think they ought to ask for help with that problem.