Arts of the white man and the native american

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts - General' started by PhotonGuy, Jul 19, 2014.

  1. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    It may be easy to fight like Tyson, but it ain't easy to fight like Holyfield. :)
     
  2. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think they were probably smart enough to not try to break their hands in the heat of battle. :)
     
  3. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    You don't have to fight like Holyfield to learn how to box old school. It's not complicated.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  4. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I can't tell if you're serious.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  5. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sure it is. I think it is science... a sweet science, even. I think you are placing to much complexity on these other arts. It is just about the same damn thing. How are they more complex? And why do the boxers fair so well against them in the ring? I will give you that adding outward motion to boxing makes it more complex, but its one move. LOL
    Sean
     
  6. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    The K.I.S.S. Principle. Depending on how you catalog them, boxing only has half-a-dozen punches or so and fewer "guards." It's not "complexity" you're thinking of, it's "sophistication." Boxing can be very sophisticated because of the many ways that a single given boxing technique can be refined and applied, assuming the practitioner has spent the time to develop that level of sophistication.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  7. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    I am very serious. They probably punched the enemy about as much as our soldiers do now. :)
     
  8. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Then I refer you to the extremely long and painful thread in which I discuss that you just have punch properly.

    The thread was long, painful, and not particularly fruitful. The reader's digest version of my statements is, "learn to punch right and you have very little chance of breaking your hand."

    For exactly how that is done, rather than retype if all yet again, I refer the interested readers to any number of period Pugilism manuals, some of which are referenced in the stickied thread in this sub-forum. But if you don't like 19th Century or early 20th Century English, then just read Jack Dempsey's description. He writes it very well.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  9. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    They used sticks, stones, and arrows. If they fought hand to hand, the idea was to take your enemy off his feet, not square off for the entertainment of others.
    Sean
     
  10. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    I understand how to not hurt my hand when punching, but would an entire tribe spend a lot of time on it?
    Sean
     
  11. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    So?

    The same as grappling; as a way to supplement and enhance weapon work, or when a weapon was not available.

    I never claimed that they did.
     
  12. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Who said "a lot of time?" The evidence indicates that empty handed punching was what you did if you did if you didn't have a weapon or as a supplement to the weapon already in hand, much like wrestling.

    This isn't rocket surgery.
     
  13. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

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    Keep in mind that if you were to punch an armored opponent you would probably be wearing a metal gauntlet so it would have some effect. And besides, not all your opponents wore metal armor. The common foot soldier would usually just be wearing leather.
     
  14. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

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    That's because, what I know of Adrian "chief" Roman, he incorporated Kempo into native american fighting systems.
     
  15. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think more rockets die than you think. LOL
     
  16. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    OK then, so what is the basis for your conclusions?
     
  17. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think we watch too many movies, and have a very small filter in which we view history. The punch as we know it is a specialization. Your a martial artist... go ask you non martial art friends to punch you in the stomach as hard as they can. It is great fun watching them hut their hand, but then you have trust issues. :)
     
  18. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I don't think that answers my question, unless you're answer is, "I base my conclusions upon movies."

    What is the basis for your conclusions?
     
  19. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    To be honest, I was told this by one of my karate teachers, and his question to me was, why is something that is so hard to do well, so, common? I came up with, entertainment, and it seems a less dangerous way of stabbing (or jabbing) which is sort of a sexual thing, but who knows? The bottom line is that, punching occurred a lot less through human history than you have been led to believe. It is more likely you babied your hands, so that you might still hold a weapon. :)
     
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  20. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Not necessarily. Medieval European? Maybe... but, though I don't have hard facts handy, I suspect that the run of the mill soldier wasn't wearing metal gauntlets. Native American? I'm pretty confident that they had hide gloves at best. I've never seen much showing that they had a lot of extensive metal use like that. Bone, leather, wooden armor? Sure.

    A standing, professional soldier class is something that it takes a certain level of both warfare and technology/cultural advancement to support. Otherwise, the culture just can't spare a few bodies from farming or hunting or other survival tasks just to stand around and be ready to fight. (Heck, in many of the cultures we think of as having them -- the folks whose primary role was fighter were really a minority and viewed as leadership, not the rank & file.)
     

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