Arts of the white man and the native american

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts - General' started by PhotonGuy, Jul 19, 2014.

  1. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    1,060
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    73
    From what I know, boxing or pugilism as it was called was brought to what is now the U.S.A. by the white man when he settled here from Europe. Fist fighting has a history that goes back to the middle ages, the knights used it as a form of combat, and before then it has roots that go all the way back to ancient Greece. The american indians did have certain unarmed fighting styles but they were mostly just grappling systems, they didn't use much striking or if they did strike it would be done with a weapon such as a tomahawk or club.
     
  2. jks9199

    jks9199 Cause of War & Destroyer of Civilization Staff Member

    • Administrator
    • Supporting Member
    • Super Moderator
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    17,879
    Likes Received:
    864
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Northern VA
    Support this. Where are you pulling this from? Consider how diverse the various Native American tribes and nations were. Some were hunter-gatherer societies, following herds. Others were agricultural communities. And that's only in North America... let's not forget the Inca, Maya, and other South and Central American cultures.

    What, by and large, the Native American tribes don't seem to have done is developed a structured or hierarchical means of passing on or recording their approaches to combat. One can be fairly confident that they did have something -- even if it was simply a variant of "this is where you shoot an arrow into a buffalo to kill it" a la "this is where to whack a guy in the head to kill him." The other thing is that European cultural imperatives did a wonderful job of crushing a lot of those traditions. I'm not aware of anyone teaching what they claim to be Native American martial arts that doesn't have a huge Eastern influence and pressure. Doesn't mean there are none out there... just that I haven't found one that I'm convinced of the legitimacy of lineage claims.

    As to "the white man"... There is a lot of documentation of the various combative approaches in Historical European Martial Arts. Not sure where you're going with this.
     
  3. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog Old Fart Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    • MartialTalk Fan
    • Super Moderator
    • Senior Moderator
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,363
    Likes Received:
    765
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    I'd really like to see some actual factual basis for what you're saying. I don't expect to, given your history, but it sure would be nice.
     
  4. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,844
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Over the years, I have seen some people advertising "Apache Knifefighting" and hand to hand fighting systems. I have never seen what they actually taught though.

    But, if we look at history and what we do have documented. I think it safe to say that any independant people/tribe of people has had some form of personal protection that they learned/taught to each other. Most wouldn't have been codified to teach outside of their own tribe/group.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

    • Supporting Member
    • MartialTalk Fan
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    8,604
    Likes Received:
    631
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Where the hills have eyes.....and it's HOT!
    Robert Redfeather is a Jicarilla Apache-his methods might have been handed down as "Apache," but seem to bear close relation to Spanish knife fighting,styles, which shouldn't be too surprising given New Mexico's history......I think I'll stay out of this one, and remind all to use the search function....
     
  6. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • MartialTalk Fan
    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2010
    Messages:
    8,440
    Likes Received:
    418
    Trophy Points:
    193
    There was a guy around here for a while teaching Native American secret hand to hand fighting styles. You even got colored feather head dress depending on you "rank" Now he just teaches his version of "advanced" Taekwondo.
     
  7. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Master Black Belt

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    1,142
    Likes Received:
    597
    Trophy Points:
    303
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    Leaving aside the rest of the post, I just wanted to point out that to the best of my knowledge armored European knights did not use boxing or any other form of fist fighting in combat. Punching an armored opponent just doesn't work. They did have close quarters grappling techniques for putting an opponent on the ground.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. hussaf

    hussaf Green Belt

    Joined:
    May 15, 2010
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Is Redfeather still incarcerated?
     
  9. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

    • Supporting Member
    • MartialTalk Fan
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    8,604
    Likes Received:
    631
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Where the hills have eyes.....and it's HOT!

    I heard he'd gotten out, but I'm not on "Redfeather watch," so I don't really care......:lfao:

    Oh, and he's Mescalero, not Jicarilla-but last he was in NM, I think he was on the Jicarilla Rez....
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
  10. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,844
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    123


    Hmmm, seems strange that they use the numbering system for angles like in FMA. Not impressed with watching them stab the ground over and over either.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  11. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,844
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    123
    I also remember this guy. He had a "buy your blackbelt home study program" for American Kenpo and then had his own native american fighting system too.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  12. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

    • Supporting Member
    • MartialTalk Fan
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    8,604
    Likes Received:
    631
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Where the hills have eyes.....and it's HOT!
    Not too much stranger than using numbering systems for angles in Spanish methods...or French ones....

    and no, they're not particularly impresive at all....
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  13. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

    • Supporting Member
    • MartialTalk Fan
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    8,604
    Likes Received:
    631
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Where the hills have eyes.....and it's HOT!
    He still does.....his kenpo isn't even that good.....:barf:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  14. Blindside

    Blindside Senior Master

    • Founding Member
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2001
    Messages:
    4,270
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Kennewick, WA
    Actually the stabbing the ground thin in sand or similar medium would provide good feedback for stabbing something, I can see its use.
    Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express
     
  15. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

    • Supporting Member
    • MartialTalk Fan
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    8,604
    Likes Received:
    631
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Where the hills have eyes.....and it's HOT!
    Especially for groundfighting-but I'm more generally unimpressed-though one of his (Redfeather's) associates used to work at the lab, and has some of the fastest hands I've ever experienced-Alan Tafoya actually won the knife fighting competition at a Soldier of Fortune magazine convention...but he was an FMA stylist before he hooked up with Robert Redfeather-some of you may have seen him on the "Apach vs. Gladiator" episode of the Deadliest Warrior/
     
  16. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,031
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    1. Boxing, as the sport we generally think of it, pretty much disappeared during the middle ages. There seems to have been one or two regional sports, but not English boxing. Most likely, the first of the English "Stage Gladiators," James Figg reintroduced "Prize Fighting" Pugilism to London. I, personally, refer to antique boxing as "Pugilism" specifically as a way to differentiate the pre-Marquis rule sets which included grapples, throws, trips, chokes, backfists, spinning backfists, and some other stuff which aren't legal under MoQ rules. However, that said, even "in period," the sport and art was usually referred to as "Boxing."
    2. Medieval Knights covers a span of centuries of weapon and armor technology improvements and social changes. It's hard to lock it down to just one "thing." It's usually best to refer to a specific time period in a specific location, such as 16th Century Germany or the like. When armoured, knights were armoured, depending on time period and social convention, in anything from heavily padded clothing, to hardened leather (similar to hard plastic), to flexible metal maille ("chain mail"), to various kinds of plate harnesses ("plate armor"). Again, when armoured, the armour always included some form of helmet. When wearing a full plate harness, bare hand striking techniques would have been marginal in effectiveness (at best). That said, judging by the knightly fight books and other period fighting books I've read, knightly fighting skills covered the whole range and included bare-hand striking, kicking, grappling, joint-locking, throwing, and any/every melee and personal ranged weapon available at the time. However, bare-handed strikes appear to be the least represented of all of the techniques and, when shown at all, are restricted to unarmored and unarmed fighting. Understanding, of course, that I'm not a medieval martial arts expert. I've just studied a little bit of them and read a bit more.
    3. When it comes to native american martial arts, my research indicates that some tribes did, in fact, have fairly sophisticated systems. They, apparently, were largely taught as an integral part of social upbringing. While it is impossible to lump all native american tribes into one big pile, apparently, for many there was no equivalent of, "it's Tuesday so it's Martial Arts class after lunch." You learned fighting from mentors all the time, whenever they felt like it. One fascinating theory is that many of the "War Dances" were training systems for martial arts in a similar way to the commonly accepted understanding of Kata. From what few resources seem to have survived, bare-hand strikes, kicks, grapples/wrestling, and the common melee and personal ranged weapons were all part of the tribal systems, focus being primarily on weapons with grappling and/or striking being thought of as in support of the weapon work. Again, based on what little documentation remains, common native american melee weapons included the war-club (including a stone-headed mace), small knives, spears, throwing club, bow, sling, and the atlatl. Most cutting edges would be stone, though there is evidence of the use of naturally occurring copper which once could be found on the shores of the Great Lakes and was traded as far as modern St. Louis. They often made use of armour including heavy clothing, reinforced clothing, and shields. One account I read indicated that there was more honor gained by fighting (and winning) with an inferior weapon against a superior one and seemed to imply that fighting unarmed while naked and besting a man with a bow and lance earned the most honor though, to be fair, the account was written as recording an oral tradition. Again, I'm not an expert on pre-European native american fighting systems. I've just had a little exposure and have done some research as it relates to Tomahawk use.

    In short, everybody was fighting, all the time, with whatever they had available, weapons first, and running all the way down to fighting nekkid. Most people get a chuckle when looking at period Italian Rapier manuals which show the Duelists fighting completely naked except for their Rapiers (and sometimes Parrying Daggers) but, personally, I don't believe that it happened.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise Living on the Razors Edge Staff Member

    • Moderator
    • Supporting Member
    • MartialTalk Fan
    • Super Moderator
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    24,762
    Likes Received:
    620
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    No doubt about it that the Native Americans had martial systems that they trained in. They certainly taught their younger people, how to hunt, fish, build things, etc. It would be no different for martial practice I imagine. They were quite often in warfare with other tribes and lord knows when the white man arrived there were plenty of engagements. Having said that I personally have not come across anything that I would call legitimate being taught as native American martial practice. A lot of people who trained in Asian systems and then created their own native Amercian system but none that I would consider some thing passed down over time. Though I would imagine that if there is some they probably would not show it to this white guy or any other for that matter. When asked by someone who wants to practice native American martial arts I usually refer them to join a Lacrosse league. Lacrosse was a ritual, warfare tribal game and still has that tough edge to it. Lacrosse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  18. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    9,024
    Likes Received:
    245
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Spokane Valley WA
    It isn't hard to imagine a society that didn't rely on thrusting motions with the fist to take down their enemy. Thrusting is unnatural, hammering, and bonking are almost a natural instinct. Boxing was a sport, and very hard to master. I suggest you go with this until you provide evidence that they were boxers. :)
     
  19. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    9,024
    Likes Received:
    245
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Spokane Valley WA
    That looked like kenpo to me. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  20. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,031
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    The "punch" exists as part of pretty much every codified martial art I've ever heard of. Seems natural enough going by the evidence. I'll give you that hammer-fists are even more natural as an instinctive movement.

    And a martial art. Going on from it's reintroduction to England by Figg, Boxing has been considered an unarmed martial art of self defense. Boxing is a "sport" in the same way that Judo and Tae Kwon Do are "sports."

    But still easier than any other empty-handed martial art, however.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     

Share This Page