Are you really training for self defense?

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by KPM, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok. Lets simplify the issue. If I can reliably do this.

    [​IMG]

    How many self defence situations can I resolve?
     
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  3. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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  4. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Personally, I think the article is overthought.

    If you are getting quality training, then there ought to be some applicable self defense skills that you are developing. However, nothing is perfect and nothing can prepare you for a genuine sneak attack or overwhelming odds.

    In addition, self defense does not need to be your first or second or third or fourth reason or motivation for training. And yet you can still be developing legitimate and useful self defense skills.

    Personally, and I’ve said this before, I feel that those people who become very focused on self defense can cross the line to paranoia. No thanks.
     
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  5. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    The Sifu at the seminar I attended today teaches WC in a more pragmatic/practical way. He also incorporates boxing punches into his training, more agility and even some Shaolin and Hungar moves. He will tell you straight up that traditional arts can be dogmatic in their approach and teaching. You have to make them work for you in some way.
     
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  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    The gif didn't play for me, DB. What did it show?
     
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  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    And overstated. It focuses on the scenarios that are farthest from the most common training methods. It then asks whether different types of common training would address those. My answer, actually, in each case is, "Probably better than not having it." That even goes for the BJJ question with multiples. I'm not a fan of going to the ground, and I do think multiples present a special problem for an art that likes the ground. But a competent BJJ-er is significantly better prepared for those multiples than someone without that training.

    Agreed. Good training (and there's a wide continuum and variety of stuff that qualifies) will help. Some will help more than others in some situations (and it may be reversed in other situations). None of it can cover everything, and attempting to do so has a high likelihood of leading to that semi-paranoia you mention. There are decisions I don't bother to worry about in my life, because they would reduce the quality of my living it.
     
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  8. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Little dude gave the big dude a sleeping pill.
     
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  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ah, then it goes to my point. Something will be different in different situations, but that one skill will potentially handle a number of them. The situation matters. I think the basic skills matter more.
     
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  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Are you really training for self defense?

    It depends on how good you can protect your head from been punched. IMO, there exist no skill that's more important than this.
     
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  11. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    I didn't really get that article. I do wing chun for fun. Same for escrima. Sure, I think they help me a bit with fitness and defensive skills, but I don't foresee ever using them for physical self-defense any more than the average HEMA guy plans to chop someone up with a sword.

    If somebody with a gun wants to take my car, I'll toss 'em the keys. The cars insured.

    If one or more guys with weapons wants my wallet, I'll give it to them. I've got a couple of extra wallets (old Christmas presents) in my sock drawer at home.

    If someone wants to hurt me or my loved ones and we can't get away ...well that's why I have access to guns, knives, and an effing big axe-handle by my bed. And yes I do practice with them, with the fervent desire never to have to use them.

    Self defense begins with awareness, avoidance, de-escalation and escape, and I haven't been in a sketchy situation in many many years. I intend to keep it that way ;)
     
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  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Whether that's important or not really depends if they're trying to hit you.
     
  13. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    I think one of the main points of that article is simply to be aware of WHY your are training! I think it was addressed primarily to those people who THINK they are very "self defense" oriented but not truly preparing for situations they might find themselves in. Or for a student to be aware if a teacher is promoting what he is doing as excellent for "self defense", but then not addressing things like situational awareness, etc. He didn't say there was anything wrong with training just for the fitness or for enjoyment.
     
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  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    People think they they are training situational awareness or deescalation. But to be honest how does anybody know any of it works?

    There is basically nobody with any real grounding in the subject and there is no real way of finding out if any of it works.

    Now given all of that. Consider the instructor who knows that he is making up tactics on the spot. And is teaching it anyway.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    With awareness, there’s some decent logic to be applied, I think (based upon crime statistics, etc.). With deescalation, there are professionals who use some of thes tactics on a regular basis (though some of the published material is for folks working with disturbed or impaired people). The issue, to me, is how it can be effectively practiced. You can’t practice with resistance.
     
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  16. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    If they had an actual grounding in the subject. There is information on nuclear physics but that doesn't mean I can build a reactor any time soon.
     
  17. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    I agree. And even just setting up more realistic training scenarios helps. Doing a light sparring session where the student has his back against a wall and has to defend against 2 or 3 people at once and get away......having a student walking thru a doorway into the gym and have to immediately defend himself against a surprise attack when he doesn't know where it will be coming from.....etc. There are better ways to prepare for a "street scenario" that just always doing forms, 2 man drills, or competitive sparring. And most certainly....people can practice being more "situationally aware". When out in public you can learn to scan for possible trouble....recognize exits....recognize where to park in the most illuminated area of a parking lot, etc. To say that there isn't a way to prepare to be safer "on the streets" is just wrong.
     
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  18. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    You can definitely teach situational awareness and create scenarios that try and replicate reality on some level. One of the senior students showed me some ways to handle an escalating situation by stepping off to the side a bit and how to place your hands in a non-threatening way but to also be ready. Even just simply making it more of a habit to pay closer attention to your surroundings in public is a start.

    I imagine Krav Maga schools do a lot of multiple attacker/reality based training.

    Kali, Krav etc. are probably a good choice overall for real serious conflicts like this, especially involving weapons. I think with most MA schools, you’re at least gettting some better reflexes and coordination that can help you but it will certainly be limited in situations. My .02
     
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  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Agreed. I was addressing the question, “How does anybody know any of it works?” We have ways of knowing some of that. But there is a problem with “practicing” it in a dojo. Role playing is useful, but there’s no “live” feedback. It’s like training a single-leg, and never getting to resistance. For most of us, te best we can do is pass along the concepts we research -including info from folks who actually have to use it regularly.
     
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  20. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Alot of Situational awareness and prevention is just about common sense and not being in such a hurry to ignore best practices.
     
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