Are Standing Arm Break Unsportsmanlike in MMA?

[Steve]

I take it the 'stiff upper lip' bit didn't stick though

If as a pro fighter you deliberately use techniques that will absolutely result in injury and harm to your opponent, however 'legal' those rules are then that fighter is behaving appallingly. Competitions aren't 'win at any costs', respect for your opponent should be and mostly is there. As I said before once you get a reputation as a 'dirty' fighter ( yes even if it means using legal moves) you will not be matched unless it's against someone the same as you. It's not 'pro wrestling' where even the 'baddies' don't actually hurt their opponents, 'baddies' simply don't get matched, promoters don't want them on their shows ( insurance claims) fighters don't want to have to take time off through injuries that could be avoided, and no one actually wants to see bones broken. Fanboys might think that's great but trust me once they've seen an injury like that they are the first to rush out to be sick.

On the subject of tapping out, I stopped a fight when a chap was in an armbar, he wasn't pleased because the pain he felt was only moderate but I could clearly see, through experience, that it was causing a lot of damage to his arm and if it went on there would be a serious injury. the fighter, an amateur, had a go at me as he got out of the cage. After another couple of fights I stepped out and he was back, this time apologising and his arm in a sling with the instruction to get it checked by a doctor, from the ringside medics. Fighters don't always know when to tap, it's not as obvious to them for a few reasons as it is to others. If it's a technique being used on them that they don't know, they again will not tap if it seems at face value they don't have to.

Amateurs, like white belts and kids, need to be protected from their inexperience and lack of technique . I think if you were to have made that same stop in a bout between two elite level fighter, it wiuld be a terrible decision .

 

[Tez3]

Amateurs, like white belts and kids, need to be protected from their inexperience and lack of technique . I think if you were to have made that same stop in a bout between two elite level fighter, it wiuld be a terrible decision .

No, because the arm was broken.

 

[now disabled]

The Murican equivalent (smartass) is capable of being either insult or sarcastic compliment. It's not terribly offensive in most cases, and whether it's an insult or not mostly depends how much you like the person saying it and how you perceive their intent.

There is often many many differences in what words here mean as to stateside and I have had on occasion to inform some of my friends that have been over here that ummm what you think it means ehhhh it may not lol the one I really got the laugh at was when a friend was out looking for work Braces and he asked the girl in the tool place for suspenders as he needed them ...she looked at him really weirdly and said she thought he was in the wrong shop ...I could not stop laughing when she told him the lingerie shop was in the centre of town ...he got really upset until I told him that eh suspenders are generally things the fairer sex wear not guys (well ok ...nh not even going there lol) we call them Braces lol ...

Even the spelling of words that mean the exact same differs and when I was stateside (yup NC) i did have many a conversation with folks on the spelling of tyre (car tyre) as they all spelled it tire which I well it was funny some of the things that got said, Even pronunciation can vary greatly (and believe me even in the UK it does lol and even the folks from the southern parts of the UK can have difficulty understanding my accent (or indeed what words I use lol) and I have even here had discussions with those folks on what they use Gaelic words to mean in English where as in my native language they mean maybe the same sorta lol but also can mean other things too or depending on context something very different lol

so what might be construed as offensive stateside may not here (or it may even be thought offensive in one part of the UK but not in the more northern regions lol) and vice versa

 

[Anarax]

I appreciate the conversations on the meaning of certain terms and words. However, when the one who uses the word says it's an insult it clearly conveys where it falls on the endearing/insulting spectrum.

Note: I don't want the thread to get shutdown so this is the last time I'm going to talk about it.

 

[Anarax]

Amateurs, like white belts and kids, need to be protected from their inexperience and lack of technique . I think if you were to have made that same stop in a bout between two elite level fighter, it wiuld be a terrible decision .

I agree, kids, amateurs and professional fighters are completely different things. The ref isn't even responsible for stopping the actual submission. He only has to stop the bout in the event of a tap, TKO, KO or chocked unconscious. Meaning if a fighter is caught in an armbar but doesn't tap, the fighter is will within the rules to break it and the ref doesn't need to stop the break from happening, only after the break has occurred. Essentially the ref usually steps in when the damage is done, he's there to prevent further unnecessary injury.

 

[Steve]

No, because the arm was broken.

Ah ..sure. So then yeah.

I agree, kids, amateurs and professional fighters are completely different things. The ref isn't even responsible for stopping the actual submission. He only has to stop the bout in the event of a tap, TKO, KO or chocked unconscious. Meaning if a fighter is caught in an armbar but doesn't tap, the fighter is will within the rules to break it and the ref doesn't need to stop the break from happening, only after the break has occurred. Essentially the ref usually steps in when the damage is done, he's there to prevent further unnecessary injury.

Like tez describes in her example.

 

[Tez3]

The ref isn't even responsible for stopping the actual submission.

Incorrect. The ref has to stop the fight if one fighter cannot intelligently defend themselves or a fighter is refusing to tap with serious injury being caused hurt if it continues i.e.. the ankle is being twisted so far round that it is obvious it will break. The refs job is protect the fighters, quite often from themselves. The referee is the only one who can stop a fight ( no, the corners can't throw in a towel in MMA, though if it happens a ref will stop the fight but it's rare), the ringside doctor can advise the ref on stopping the fight as well, it doesn't have to just be a KO. If a doctor considers that the injury being caused is bad enough the fight can be stopped before the fighter taps. A fighter can use a legal move, and the ref can stop it if the damage is more than the ref considers acceptable, the fight will be awarded to the other fighter as a TKO. The injured fighter may consider it unfair and swear he could have got out of it but often his/her judgement is clouded, the refs shouldn't be and that's why they are there. Better to have a decision go against you and be able to have a rematch than be injured so badly you can't fight again. It's competition, a sport after all not warfare.
There's been cases where refs have stopped a fight in these circumstances and also not stopped fights, all have been criticised but what people don't seem to realise is the decision is solely down to the ref using their best judgement at the time. No one else can decide, only the ref sometimes with medical advice, sometimes not.

Don't pull the tone policing on me again. I have reffed many pro fights after training to be a ref under Marc Goddard. I do know what I'm talking about (and we use the 'UFC' rules0.

 

[Tez3]

Just in case it's not clear...……….. there are rules meetings before the fights where the refs will outline their policies on things like how long they will allow people to 'lay and pray' before they stand them up, at what point they would stop a fight, what techniques aren't allowed in case anyone needs an explanation ( often it's a demo) and how they want the fight to go ie fairly and with good sportsmanship. ( many have now had to say whether they want a handshake first before they tell them to fight, as some fighters having been throwing punches rather than handshakes, it just saves any misunderstandings before they get in the cage) The refs first priority is the safety of the fighters and adherence to the rules which are made to that end, they don't care who wins.

 

[Anarax]

The ref has to stop the fight if one fighter cannot intelligently defend themselves or a fighter is refusing to tap with serious injury being caused hurt if it continues i.e.. the ankle is being twisted so far round that it is obvious it will break.

There's a bit of a gray area when a submission is causing pain and when it's inflicting significant damage. Different people have different ranges of motion. For example, in training I've gotten flexible people in a kimura lock and was able to bend it far pass the point I could with other people before they usually tap. The first time I rolled with them I didn't know of their flexibility, so I stopped as I was applying it and asked if they were okay. He said he was fine and was double jointed, thus I continued the submission until he tapped. All of that to say it's difficult for an outsider to always gauge the damage a submission(no matter how tight it looks) may cause.

There's also the escape or possibility of escape the fighter might/can pull off before the damage is inflicted by the submission. Look at the armbar escape Rich Franklin pulled off against Travis Lutter, it looked tight but Rich spun out of it.

The refs job is protect the fighters, quite often from themselves.

I disagree. Protecting them from each other is far more common and a much more prominent danger. I understand what you mean by ego though.

A fighter can use a legal move, and the ref can stop it if the damage is more than the ref considers acceptable, the fight will be awarded to the other fighter as a TKO.

Here's the rules from the UFC site itself

"If an injury sustained during competition as a result of a legal maneuver is severe enough to terminate a bout, the injured contestant loses by technical knockout"

I think the key terms here are "sustained" and "severe". Sustained is past tense, thus the injury has already occurred. Severe conveys a critical level injury that has a moderate-high level of debilitation.

Though it says Technical Knockout, the UFC fight records show "submission" as the official method of winning. Other sources refer to it as a "technical submission, when a fighter doesn't tap but sustains too severe an injury to continue from a submission. It's really only semantics at this point.

Better to have a decision go against you and be able to have a rematch than be injured so badly you can't fight again.

Professional fighters go into the ring/octagon already accepting that potential outcome. Very rarely are fighters caught in submissions, refuse to tap and suffer career ending injuries.

 

[Steve]

I think the key is that the ref isn’t there to prevent the initial result. Rather, they are there to stop the fight once injurynhas occurred. In the ufc, for example, they don’t stop the fight before the athlete taps. They stop it as soon as the injury occurs or the tap occurs. Just as tez describes .

 

[Tez3]

Professional fighters go into the ring/octagon already accepting that potential outcome. Very rarely are fighters caught in submissions, refuse to tap and suffer career ending injuries.

The fighters that have as got as far as being professionals in big promotions don't but there's a long road to get to that point and we don't just ref the big fights but all those ones on the way to the so called 'big time'. We referee all fights from the starting out as amateurs to the neo pros then seasoned pros and yes you do get those who don't tap along the way, by the time they've survived getting to the point where they are being televised they have a lot more experience. We do have career ending injuries because they won't tap, we have broken bones etc.
As refs we are there to protect the fighters full stop, whether from themselves, each other, random streakers, whatever.

When you quote the rules you missed the one about the ref being the sole arbiter. The decisions are the referees and theirs alone.
"The referee is the sole arbiter of a contest and is the only individual authorized to stop a contest. The referee may take advice from the ringside physician and/or the Commission with respect to the decision to stop a contest."

it will be explained, as I said, at the rules meeting before at what point the ref will stop a fights, fighters can question if they wish so they know what the ref wants. It's easy when you are a spectator deciding what the re should have done or should do ( it happens in all sports, the use of video replay is helping to make refs and umpires easier in some sports though) but the responsibility is firmly on the shoulders of the ref and ultimately it doesn't matter what you think it's the refs decision. Fanboys can disagree all they like but usually they have a distinct lack of knowledge and experience.

 

[now disabled]

The fighters that have as got as far as being professionals in big promotions don't but there's a long road to get to that point and we don't just ref the big fights but all those ones on the way to the so called 'big time'. We referee all fights from the starting out as amateurs to the neo pros then seasoned pros and yes you do get those who don't tap along the way, by the time they've survived getting to the point where they are being televised they have a lot more experience. We do have career ending injuries because they won't tap, we have broken bones etc.
As refs we are there to protect the fighters full stop, whether from themselves, each other, random streakers, whatever.

When you quote the rules you missed the one about the ref being the sole arbiter. The decisions are the referees and theirs alone.
"The referee is the sole arbiter of a contest and is the only individual authorized to stop a contest. The referee may take advice from the ringside physician and/or the Commission with respect to the decision to stop a contest."

it will be explained, as I said, at the rules meeting before at what point the ref will stop a fights, fighters can question if they wish so they know what the ref wants. It's easy when you are a spectator deciding what the re should have done or should do ( it happens in all sports, the use of video replay is helping to make refs and umpires easier in some sports though) but the responsibility is firmly on the shoulders of the ref and ultimately it doesn't matter what you think it's the refs decision. Fanboys can disagree all they like but usually they have a distinct lack of knowledge and experience.

I totally agree with you that the role of the ref is not just as superficial as might be viewed and that imo (and I am not a mma or tournament person) it is much more vital that the ref is on the ball in the lower "rank type" fights as there he/she has to be even more aware due I would think to lack of control of the "fighters" (due to their lower rank and experience) or their stubbornness thinking that they "know" best and they are way better than they actually are !

A thing that always springs to mind when I see things like this is an analogy from days in the Military ... A year bright eyed and bushy tailed rupert turns up all fresh and ready to go thinks he knows it all and is ready to tell everyone that and make his mark ... well if the CO doesn't say to him first (some will to spare his/her blushes some will depending on attitude let him/her blush) the when he reaches his platoon he/she will be (again depending on attitude) "invited to sit down shut up and listen and informed yes you have reached the "big show" but only reached it now you have to learn and find out what the "big show" really is not what you think it is...

Ok some of you will jump at that but in part it like the ref in a fight the sgts csgt's and csm's are the refs the officers are the commission and are all there to enforce the rules and make sure that the "newbie" or "wannabe" actually gets the chance to be a "BE" and not get either himself/herself or any other unnecessarily hurt or killed or have career ending injuries in the process.

So to me the ref is important and what folks on the side lines think or what even the fighters think is irrelevant the ref decision is final and if you don't like it then well pick another "show " to go take part in !!!

 

[Tez3]

I totally agree with you that the role of the ref is not just as superficial as might be viewed and that imo (and I am not a mma or tournament person) it is much more vital that the ref is on the ball in the lower "rank type" fights as there he/she has to be even more aware due I would think to lack of control of the "fighters" (due to their lower rank and experience) or their stubbornness thinking that they "know" best and they are way better than they actually are !

A thing that always springs to mind when I see things like this is an analogy from days in the Military ... A year bright eyed and bushy tailed rupert turns up all fresh and ready to go thinks he knows it all and is ready to tell everyone that and make his mark ... well if the CO doesn't say to him first (some will to spare his/her blushes some will depending on attitude let him/her blush) the when he reaches his platoon he/she will be (again depending on attitude) "invited to sit down shut up and listen and informed yes you have reached the "big show" but only reached it now you have to learn and find out what the "big show" really is not what you think it is...

Ok some of you will jump at that but in part it like the ref in a fight the sgts csgt's and csm's are the refs the officers are the commission and are all there to enforce the rules and make sure that the "newbie" or "wannabe" actually gets the chance to be a "BE" and not get either himself/herself or any other unnecessarily hurt or killed or have career ending injuries in the process.

So to me the ref is important and what folks on the side lines think or what even the fighters think is irrelevant the ref decision is final and if you don't like it then well pick another "show " to go take part in !!!

Now that's an analogy I can totally relate to! Totally gen.

 

[Anarax]

We referee all fights from the starting out as amateurs to the neo pros then seasoned pros and yes you do get those who don't tap along the way, by the time they've survived getting to the point where they are being televised they have a lot more experience.

That's why I specified Professional fighters. I have watched many independent MMA organizations both locally/semi-locally and non-televised. I've rarely seen a ref need to stop a submission before the fighter taps(excluding chokes). The overall submission danger awareness is a skill that will also develop the more they practice submissions(rolling) in training.

We do have career ending injuries because they won't tap, we have broken bones etc.

Broken bones alone aren't career-ending injuries. Other people have commented on here about injury recovery times concerning broken bones healing between fights. Granted it depends on what bone/bones and what find of fracture, but overall bones heal quite well. The injury will take time out of training, but it's rarely a career-ender.

When you quote the rules you missed the one about the ref being the sole arbiter. The decisions are the referees and theirs alone.
"The referee is the sole arbiter of a contest and is the only individual authorized to stop a contest. The referee may take advice from the ringside physician and/or the Commission with respect to the decision to stop a contest."

I saw that and understand the meaning. I understand what the authority of the ref is, but my point was the ref won't immediately stop a submission before the fighter taps. I was clarifying the leeway the ref has in when to intervene.

I understand the ref wants to keep the fighters safe, but they also want the fighters to compete until they can't no longer via TKO/KO/submission/technical submission/etc. No ref wants to be known(by professionals) for stopping fights too early or too late. If a ref repeatedly ignored the Physician's advice and it resulted in the fighter being needlessly injured he would quickly lose respect as a ref by other professionals(fighters, other refs, governing bodies, etc.

The same goes for stopping fights prematurely all in the hope of preventing injury. If the ref stopped a bout in the early stage of a submission many fighters wouldn't want that ref for their bout. There's an ideal narrow spectrum that refs like to stay in when refereeing a bout, somewhere between safety and acceptable/reasonable danger. That spectrum varies from ref to ref though.

It's easy when you are a spectator deciding what the re should have done or should do ( it happens in all sports, the use of video replay is helping to make refs and umpires easier in some sports though) but the responsibility is firmly on the shoulders of the ref

Referees are only human, they are limited by their senses and can only act on what's in front of them. Even Big John Mccarthy has looked back on bouts and regretted how he refereed them.

it doesn't matter what you think it's the refs decision. Fanboys can disagree all they like but usually they have a distinct lack of knowledge and experience.

I'm unsure if you mean spectators in general or myself. Either way, I have over 5 years of medical experience and have trained in both bjj(rolled with pros) and full-contact karate. When I watch MMA bouts I watch it from a Martial Arts and anatomical/physiological perceptive. If you meant other spectators, then I see your point about the average Joe fan that wears a Tapout/Affliction shirt and thinks he knows the sport.

 

[Anarax]

Like tez describes in her example.

I'm not seeing where her and I disagree on the ref's authority/rules, yet she disagreed with what I said. There must be some difference that she sees at least to click disagree.

 

[Tez3]

Broken bones alone aren't career-ending injuries.

if you read the sentence correctly you will see I didn't say broken bones are career ending, there's a comma between 'career ending' and 'we have broken bones etc' indicting these are separate.

That's why I specified Professional fighters. I

Actually that doesn't mean anything, we have a lot of amateur fighters who fight pro rules. They are pro fighters because they have 'day job's but they fight under professional rules as opposed to semi pro or amateur rules.

The overall submission danger awareness is a skill that will also develop the more they practice submissions(rolling) in training.

You know, if you read what I said, I'd already said that!

The same goes for stopping fights prematurely all in the hope of preventing injury. If the ref stopped a bout in the early stage of a submission many fighters wouldn't want that ref for their bout. There's an ideal narrow spectrum that refs like to stay in when refereeing a bout, somewhere between safety and acceptable/reasonable danger. That spectrum varies from ref to ref though.

You aren't understanding what I'm saying. I have never said end a fight 'prematurely' or 'before' an injury happens. My example showed that injury had already happened and I stopped the fight to stop it getting worse. You are arguing about something I haven't even suggested. You aren't understanding my point and seem to think I'm saying something I'm not.

Either way, I have over 5 years of medical experience and have trained in both bjj(rolled with pros) and full-contact karate. When I watch MMA bouts I watch it from a Martial Arts and anatomical/physiological perceptive. If you meant other spectators, then I see your point about the average Joe fan that wears a Tapout/Affliction shirt and thinks he knows the sport.

I didn't mean you. I meant what I said, the trouble is you keep reading into my words things that aren't there.
For the record I also have full contact karate experience ( as well as BJJ, Muay Thai and Judo), in my over forty years of training martial arts. I have been training, coaching, reffing, judging, cornering, match matching and promoting MMA for nearly 20 years. I've trained with people like Ian Freeman, Leigh Remedios, Rosi Sexton etc etc. And just to bore the others on here because they already know, we gave Bisping his debut pro fight on our promotion. I was already a karate official before, been on countless refereeing and coaching courses, as I said before Marc Goddard does amazing MMA refs courses.

 

[paitingman]

Just for some perspective Aoki's opponent Keith Wisniewski recovered well and went on to win his next fight about 4 months later.
Arm broken January 29th, 2005. Next fight wasn't until May 14th 2005.

 

[Anarax]

if you read the sentence correctly you will see I didn't say broken bones are career ending, there's a comma between 'career ending' and 'we have broken bones etc' indicting these are separate.

Commas can also be used to separate an initial statement from a clarification. Broken limbs are relevant considering the technique and video the thread is about.

Actually that doesn't mean anything, we have a lot of amateur fighters who fight pro rules. They are pro fighters because they have 'day job's but they fight under professional rules as opposed to semi pro or amateur rules.

Actually it means a lot, and you're point about "day jobs" conveys why. Someone with a day job will not be able to put in the same amount of hours than a Pro will. The rules they fight under are one thing, but the skills they bring into the ring is going to set the tempo. A pro fighter can dedicate more time into training than an amateur can for the amateurs must work a day job to survive, which takes up a lot of time. While the amateur is working at their job, the pro fighter is at the gym drilling, conditioning and sparring. This additional training makes the pro more dangerous in bouts.

You aren't understanding what I'm saying. I have never said end a fight 'prematurely' or 'before' an injury happens. My example showed that injury had already happened and I stopped the fight to stop it getting worse. You are arguing about something I haven't even suggested. You aren't understanding my point and seem to think I'm saying something I'm not.

No Tez, my post isn't about you, it's about refereeing as a whole. I'm using examples to illustrate my point.

 

[Anarax]

Just for some perspective Aoki's opponent Keith Wisniewski recovered well and went on to win his next fight about 4 months later.
Arm broken January 29th, 2005. Next fight wasn't until May 14th 2005.

You beat me to it

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you ever test your MA skill in golden glove boxing in a small red neck Texas town (such as Liberty Hill, Texas), you will feel that everybody there will fight like animal and try to kill you in the ring without mercy.

What will you do if your opponent in the ring tries to do this to you?