Are Martial Sports better for self defense than Martial Arts?

[JowGaWolf]

Well here is cerone that everyone is talking about.

And that's light sparring. The guy in black shorts didn't blast the other guy as if he was trying to knock him out.

 

[Hanzou]

I'll let these guys answer your question. You can skip to 12:15 for a direct answer

While I respect both of those guys, they clearly have an agenda in that video. In the end it sounds like an advertisement for their SD programs over a legitimate critique of the video in question.

 

[Hanzou]

As you said, these are fighters.

Martial artists aren't fighters? Fighters aren't martial artists?

Maybe we should figure out what the difference is.

 

[Hanzou]

And that's light sparring. The guy in black shorts didn't blast the other guy as if he was trying to knock him out.

But clearly his strikes were strong enough to knock out his training partner. I've never seen anyone get knocked out from light sparring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Martial artists aren't fighters? Fighters aren't martial artists?

Maybe we should figure out what the difference is.

Agreed. This is back to that false distinction. Some martial artists are not fighters. Some fighters are not martial artists. But there's a lot of overlap in those populations.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

While I respect both of those guys, they clearly have an agenda in that video. In the end it sounds like an advertisement for their SD programs over a legitimate critique of the video in question.

They do. I've found very few MAists - TMA, MMA, or any other - whose spoken-word videos don't show their bias when they mention another art. In fact, I can't think of one off the top of my head.

 

[dvcochran]

Martial artists aren't fighters? Fighters aren't martial artists?

Maybe we should figure out what the difference is.

Yes, it is tough. Martial Arts should teach you how not to be predisposed to fighting. If you want to only be a ring fighter I have a hard time calling that MA. Because it is an easy Segway to move from MA to sport fighter the line really gets blurred. Naturally, many of the same practice elements are used in both making it even more difficult to separate. So I would say yes, Martial Artist aren't fighters but do "fight" to learn. A great many things is rolled up into the word learn. Exclusively being a fighter is not a Martial Artist.

 

[Hanzou]

Having sparring in your martial art does make you a better martial artist. You understand how to work against an active person.

However having sparring doesn't also mean sport.

There is a difference between self defence and fighting although obviously there is crossover.

The guy in the video is impressive. I really like how he moves. In this situation maybe self defence went into fighting. I especailly like his reaction to the sucker punch.

Some (self defence) questions

- Do you think he could have de-escalated the situation?

Definitely. He failed in that regard, and I seriously wonder if he didn't de-escalate it because he knew he would absolutely wreck the guy if they fought.

- Was there a point where he could have disengaged.

I don't think so. I don't think the other guy would have stopped unless he was stopped. Frankly that fight should have been over after the initial sucker punch, because the Bjj guy had his back and was punching him in the head from behind until bystanders pulled him apart. That's pretty much game over.

- What would happen if the 'interrupting' people had decided to join in? Ot seems that they were more on the other guy's team

Yep, definitely on the other guy's side. He's fortunate that they didn't jump in, but unfortunately some of that is out of your control.

- What would have happen if the woman didn't break the fight up?

The big guy probably would have undid the lock. I don't think the Bjj guy would have snapped his ankle.

It may seem like splitting hairs, but if you are studying self defence all these questions and others have to be looked at. As well as the physical self defence.

Yes, but do we go to martial arts schools to learn how to fight, or to learn situational awareness? You don't need martial arts to learn the latter. Also the ability to fight is clearly important in the critical portion of self defense when physical violence has been initiated.

 

[dvcochran]

Definitely. He failed in that regard, and I seriously wonder if he didn't de-escalate it because he knew he would absolutely wreck the guy if they fought.



I don't think so. I don't think the other guy would have stopped unless he was stopped. Frankly that fight should have been over after the initial sucker punch, because the Bjj guy had his back and was punching him in the head from behind until bystanders pulled him apart. That's pretty much game over.



Yep, definitely on the other guy's side. He's fortunate that they didn't jump in, but unfortunately some of that is out of your control.



The big guy probably would have undid the lock. I don't think the Bjj guy would have snapped his ankle.



Yes, but do we go to martial arts schools to learn how to fight, or to learn situational awareness? You don't need martial arts to learn the latter. Also the ability to fight is clearly important in the critical portion of self defense when physical violence has been initiated.

You had me up to your last statement. In our class/system SA is part of the teaching.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, it is tough. Martial Arts should teach you how not to be predisposed to fighting. If you want to only be a ring fighter I have a hard time calling that MA. Because it is an easy Segway to move from MA to sport fighter the line really gets blurred. Naturally, many of the same practice elements are used in both making it even more difficult to separate. So I would say yes, Martial Artist aren't fighters but do "fight" to learn. A great many things is rolled up into the word learn. Exclusively being a fighter is not a Martial Artist.

That sounds rather contradictory on multiple levels. I see no way to avoid being predisposed to fighting when you're seriously learning a fighting art. Especially in harder styles where you're getting physically blasted on a consistent basis.

 

[dvcochran]

Well here is cerone that everyone is talking about.

I would love to see another 60 seconds of the clip. They were pulling and going through motion drills. I am not sure his head even moved. Was it a hard hit or was he clowning?

 

[Hanzou]

You had me up to your last statement. In our class/system SA is part of the teaching.

Gotcha, but I don't need to take a MA to learn situational awareness. I know some MAs offer it, but that training isn't exclusive to MA, and frankly is taught better elsewhere.

 

[FriedRice]

And that's light sparring. The guy in black shorts didn't blast the other guy as if he was trying to knock him out.

That looked like a fanboi (a beginner's level) getting a big moment for some fun with Ceronne, so not even real sparring. And he's small too.

To me, that was medium sparring and he shouldn't have gone that hard. Maybe keep it at touch to light. If I hit girls at our gym that hard, most will probably start crying.

 

[FriedRice]

Yes, it is tough. Martial Arts should teach you how not to be predisposed to fighting. If you want to only be a ring fighter I have a hard time calling that MA.

Says who though?

Bruce Lee used to be a street thug in Hong Kong....then a street thug + bully in US Chinatowns.....he used his chopsocky to pick fights in order to make a name for himself. There's an account of him dropping and old Tai Chi man in what was supposed to be a pushing demo, but Lee punched him in the gut, haha. After he got famous, his Publicists cleaned up his image so he's now some Yoda of the martial arts?

Samurais used to be the hired killers/enforcers of scumbag warlords, going around bullying, killing and raping men, women and children with their Jujutsu. And when they had no jobs, they'd go robbing poor farmers and raping young boys and girls. But now they're glorified by, once again, White Hollywood.

Seems like the Martial Arts is merely a tool to me. And to Fighters, it's a tool to beat someone *** up in the ring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You had me up to your last statement. In our class/system SA is part of the teaching.

In my opinion, there's only so much situational awareness that can be taught in that environment. There's a lot more fighting skill that can be taught.

 

[JowGaWolf]

While I respect both of those guys, they clearly have an agenda in that video. In the end it sounds like an advertisement for their SD programs over a legitimate critique of the video in question.

Gracie have already been quoted multiple times about their desire for BJJ to remain closer to the self-defense perspective than the sport perspective. That has been their view since UFC 1.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But clearly his strikes were strong enough to knock out his training partner. I've never seen anyone get knocked out from light sparring.

I've seen people get dazed from light sparring, he'll I've even done it and have experienced it personally. Light sparring doesn't mean weak sparring. With light sparring you still want to work on the power connections. You just don't want add extra to the power. The reason the guy got knocked out was because of his crappy defense. The KO was more because of his defensive flaws than because of the kick. There was no heat on that kick. Just a well placed kick with good power connection set on low.

 

[drop bear]

And that's light sparring. The guy in black shorts didn't blast the other guy as if he was trying to knock him out.

When you spar noobs you can't go at them like that. They don't have the positional defenses.

 

[drop bear]

I would love to see another 60 seconds of the clip. They were pulling and going through motion drills. I am not sure his head even moved. Was it a hard hit or was he clowning?

He got hit looking the wrong way. It doesn't take much. A foot and leg are heavy weapons.

 

[dvcochran]

In my opinion, there's only so much situational awareness that can be taught in that environment. There's a lot more fighting skill that can be taught.

In that environment, definitely.