Are Martial Sports better for self defense than Martial Arts?

[Gerry Seymour]

I understand, and in a way still consider that an artistic quality. Like painting in an older art style. And some art do have more other artistic qualities such as music or dancing aspects incorporated in the art.

Some have added artistic qualities, but that's not what the word means in the phrase. Your previous post treated it as if that's what it meant.

 

[FriedRice]

Those guys and gals who are training for cage fights and the like aren’t practicing with full power strikes to the body and head. If they are, their careers aren’t going to last very long, and neither will their sparring partners’.

It’s all too common and easy to say “you fight how you train.” The best fighters in the world aren’t sparring anywhere near 100% intensity in training, yet they can do it just fine in the ring/cage/whatever.

Spar to protect your and your partners’ long term health. Hit other things at full intensity and power, like heavy bags.

What's all this, then?

 

[Martial D]

And you have world class competitors, such as Cowboy Cerrone, who don't spar at all.

Which has nothing at all to do with what I said, or the post I was replying to.

But honestly, maybe if he did he wouldn't get knocked out every other fight.

 

[ShotoNoob]

They go full out in sparring at AKA. Yes, they get injured at a greater rate than most other gyms, but they have also produced more champions(Cain, Khabib, DC, Holm, etc etc)

This is completely bogus. Because some giant bruiser who's overly strong shows up @ AKA, suddenly AKA has the magic potion?

Holm has been at Jackson / Winkeljohn from the start. You wouldn't want the average person to come to you martial arts school on these false premises would you? Oh, or would you?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Which has nothing at all to do with what I said, or the post I was replying to.

But honestly, maybe if he did he wouldn't get knocked out every other fight.

Maybe if Cerrone trained differently, he wouldn't get knocked out as often. What the gentleman you just replied said might be a possibility. Amazes me, how with all the threads here @ martial talk, the same topics start from the ground up.

PLUS, getting knocked around and banged in the head constantly might well produce some brain damage. Certainly over time. Theres' a whole league now acknowledging so.

 

[Martial D]

Maybe if Cerrone trained differently, he wouldn't get knocked out as often. What the gentleman you just replied said might be a possibility. Amazes me, how with all the threads here @ martial talk, the same topics start from the ground up.

PLUS, getting knocked around and banged in the head constantly might well produce some brain damage. Certainly over time. Theres' a whole league now acknowledging so.

With all due respect, you have shown to have little to no knowledge in the field of martial arts in general, so if you could just steer clear of my posts while the adults are talking that would be swell.

 

[ShotoNoob]

With all due respect, you have shown to have little to no knowledge in the field of martial arts in general, so if you could just steer clear of my posts while the adults are talking that would be swell.

Well, you've certainly made yourself known; no beating around the mulberry bush....

 

[dvcochran]

It is four videos from youtube. Certainly not an accurate consensus of the majority.

What's all this, then?

 

[FriedRice]

It is four videos from youtube. Certainly not an accurate consensus of the majority.

You can't be serious. You want me to post 100 video links or something? And you do know that fighters don't usually film every time they spar hard right? I'd be surprise if any of them films more than 1% of their sparring sessions, especially Pros of the high to highest levels that trains almost every day.

And videoing a lot with a phone didn't even start until the last 8 years or so. I still remember using my $1000 mini-DV camera in 2008-2010 or such, and that was decent equipment that not many people owned then and I was the only guy filming at our gym's events. And he said that they didn't spar hard at all at such Pro levels, so technically I only had to post 1 link to make my argument.

 

[dvcochran]

You can't be serious. You want me to post 100 video links or something? And you do know that fighters don't usually film every time they spar hard right? I'd be surprise if any of them films more than 1% of their sparring sessions, especially Pros of the high to highest levels that trains almost every day.

And videoing a lot with a phone didn't even start until the last 8 years or so. I still remember using my $1000 mini-DV camera in 2008-2010 or such, and that was decent equipment that not many people owned then and I was the only guy filming at our gym's events. And he said that they didn't spar hard at all at such Pro levels, so technically I only had to post 1 link to make my argument.

As you said, these are fighters.

 

[FriedRice]

PLUS, getting knocked around and banged in the head constantly might well produce some brain damage. Certainly over time. Theres' a whole league now acknowledging so.

Well yeah, that's why it's the highest level of MA training.....to be an MA Fighter. Not every MA'ist can do it, mostly due to fear.

 

[FriedRice]

As you said, these are fighters.

Read what the other guy said again. He said that Fighters don't spar hard for KO's.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agreed. If you spar at 100% you'll more than likely get injured and have to pull out of the fight. A number of UFC fighters have gone on record saying they regret sparring so stupidly. Jamie Varner, Forrest griffin and Donald cerrone are the 3 that come to mind and those are high level fighters and cerrone said he doesn't spar anymore. Also tony Ferguson has said he hasn't sparred in 5 years.sparring is mainly for cardio and timing and distance and looking for openings not hitting full power that's why they have bags and pads.

Pre-fight beatings are never good.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Pre-fight beatings are never good.

Beatings are never good.

 

[Martial D]

Pre-fight beatings are never good.

You get out what you put in though. Yes sparring light helps your game...a lot.

But going light and friendly just doesn't prepare you for the agressive reality of punches and kicks intended to take your head off. It's a whole different thing. Being comfortable in THAT environment is the place from which you can actually use your training effectively.

 

[ShotoNoob]

You get out what you put in though. Yes sparring light helps your game...a lot.

Sparring in the proper context helps a lot. This is what I attribute much of the poor quality striking we see in the UFC. They aren't putting the effort into striking basics the way serious boxing gyms do. They aren't sparring intelligently the way the pro-am boxing gyms do.

But going light and friendly just doesn't prepare you for the agressive reality of punches and kicks intended to take your head off. It's a whole different thing. Being comfortable in THAT environment is the place from which you can actually use your training effectively.

Well TMA is meant to provide a solid base for self defense. TMA is not specialized self defense training.

The wrongness in TMA comes from thinking or assuming 'light' is right. And this is from a sport mentality applied to TMA. We don't go light in TMA proper. We go controlled. What do most karate practitioners do in my dojo? They spar light which is wrong. I mean it's ok to go light, understanding what you are doing isn't right and is only a baby step on your karate fighting journey.

The wrong thinking of 'lightness" in TMA arises because students or instructors treat it, sparring as a physical activity. What you want to do is go "right." It's not about strong physical output or limiting same.

 

[FriedRice]

Sparring in the proper context helps a lot. This is what I attribute much of the poor quality striking we see in the UFC. They aren't putting the effort into striking basics the way serious boxing gyms do.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Did some Boxer tell you this? Youtube video? What you see in MMA is not Boxing, it's mostly modified Boxing for MMA due to take downs, kicks, knees and elbows. And no **** that if an athlete puts all of his efforts into Boxing, then he's going to be better at Boxing than someone who needs to spread his time training many more aspects of fighting.

They aren't sparring intelligently the way the pro-am boxing gyms do.

I thought you were against/scared of hard sparring. Boxing gyms spars hard...probably 10x more often then MMA gyms....and will get you your 1st, semi-serious concussion...usually after about 6 months of training that'll work it's way into a serious one sooner or later.

Well TMA is meant to provide a solid base for self defense. TMA is not specialized self defense training.

The wrongness in TMA comes from thinking or assuming 'light' is right. And this is from a sport mentality applied to TMA. We don't go light in TMA proper. We go controlled. What do most karate practitioners do in my dojo? They spar light which is wrong. I mean it's ok to go light, understanding what you are doing isn't right and is only a baby step on your karate fighting journey.

The wrong thinking of 'lightness" in TMA arises because students or instructors treat it, sparring as a physical activity. What you want to do is go "right." It's not about strong physical output or limiting same .

Says who? Those ancient chopsocky Asian guys developed their MA's to beat up, settle scores, dominate and kill each other....including starting wars, pillaging, plundering and enslaving the conquered. You're just enamored by The Karate Kid trilogy....made up by White people....and thinking Mr. Miyagi is real when he was freakin' Arnold on Happy Days.

 

[drop bear]

It is four videos from youtube. Certainly not an accurate consensus of the majority.

Well here is cerone that everyone is talking about.

 

[Martial D]

Well here is cerone that everyone is talking about.

Proof he doesn't spar!

..oh wait..

 

[JowGaWolf]

But going light and friendly just doesn't prepare you for the agressive reality of punches and kicks intended to take your head off. It's a whole different thing.

For me there's no difference between light sparring and hard fighting, other than the speed and force of the punches and I'm saying this from the perspective of the street fights I've been in.

Punches, kicks, take downs and defenses, still flow in the same direction in the same pattern. The flaws that you have here will be the same flaws that you have in full on fight.

If you have a good coach and training partner then those flaws can be addressed and corrected without having to be at an intensity where you are trying to knock someone out. If someone can hit you in light sparring they can hit you in hard fights. The only factors that will change that is speed and power.

The only thing that people need to really pay attention to is the context of sparring. For example, I shouldn't expect my push hands sparring to be enough to prepare me for a match where there is punching, kicking and grappling going on. I have to make sure that my sparring is in the same context that my fighting will be in. Don't do point sparring tactics if the fight is grappling because they are two different things.

If all you do is light sparring Wing Chun against Wing Chun then you will fail when it Wing Chun vs Boxing. If you do hard sparring Wing Chun against Wing Chun then you will fail when doing Wing Chun vs Boxing in a full on fight. The outcome is the same and the intensity of the sparring doesn't matter.

If you aren't training techniques that you can use to cause damage to your opponent then hard sparring won't make any difference.

I have never done hard sparring before in my life. Everything has been light. You may look at some of my videos and say that some are hard sparring, but in reality and for me, it's light sparring because of the conditioning that my body has. It's not light sparring for a beginner. The punches and kicks are harder but they are never thrown with the goal of trying to knockout my opponent.

Now if you are sparring so light where you don't care about being hit, then it's that stuff that doesn't help. Stuff like that will degrade your ability