Apologize? I would have tackled them!

[LuckyKBoxer]

IMO, given the strong effects 9-11 had on people, I for one, wouldn't offer any apology for anything. I mean really, did these idiots actually think that by doing this stuff, that it wouldnt cause a stir? Are they that dumb? Apparently so, or they just dont give a ****. I may say a silent prayer to myself when I fly, hoping that we all have a safe trip. But I dont disregard the flight attendants, get up when I'm not supposed to, pray loud enough for the others to hear me and in another language and strap weird looking things to myself.

Sorry, doing stuff like that, is just inviting an *** whoopin!

obviously most of us, myself included, think this action is bat **** crazy...
but I am sure these guys hang out with a bunch of other guys who do the same exact thing, see it in virtually all their social gatherings and do not think its wierd.
I would venture to guess they are not dumb as much as they are ignorant to other people.... just a guess though

 

[bushidomartialarts]

obviously most of us, myself included, think this action is bat **** crazy...
but I am sure these guys hang out with a bunch of other guys who do the same exact thing, see it in virtually all their social gatherings and do not think its wierd.
I would venture to guess they are not dumb as much as they are ignorant to other people.... just a guess though

Fair point. A lot of orthodox religious groups do tend to be....insular.

 

[Phenix_Rider]

Had the airline trained their staff better on identifying dangerous behavior, this would never have happened.

It still would have happened. These guys would still be pricks, and the other passengers would still be spooked. The ONLY thing that would have changed is that the flight crew would have made another dumb announcement saying "It's okay, our lawyers say we have to be nice to the kooks. Please don't panic."

 

[CanuckMA]

Perhaps a dumb question but is there specific times of the day when those of the Hebrew or Muslim faith HAVE to pray? Like they get kicked out of the club, or get a penalty or something if they don't? Can it be made up for later, no problems? Surely there must be circumstances when you can't pray at the time as your community requires you to do.

There needs to be some common sense, you're on a friggn airplane, what till it lands.

Yes, there is a specific time. Actually a range, but airline schedules may make it impossible to not pray while in flight. They would have been wearing a kippa, all the time, and would have put on a tallit. Morning individual prayer takes about 10 minutes. I don't think it's too much to ask that flight crews have a basic understanding of rituals they may encounter on board.

The prayers must be said. They don't have to be shoulted, but be at least audible. When done individually, it usually comes out as a mumble. Congregating near the washroom usually occurs on North and Southbound flights, as we pray facing East and the washroom/galley areas are the only place in the plane where we can turn in that direction. On East or West bound flights, we'll jut face the front or back of the plane.

Not all Orthodox men look like Hasidim. A lot of times you could not pick me out of a crowd. I dress conservatively but not in a black suit. I have a braed, trimmed. While I do wear my sideburns longer than most, they do not stand out. And at times will just wear a baseball cap, or any other type of hat.

While in hindsight they could have let the flight crew know what they were about to do, it is something that is so natural and ingrained in our daily life that we do not think it is anything unusual.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

While in hindsight they could have let the flight crew know what they were about to do, it is something that is so natural and ingrained in our daily life that we do not think it is anything unusual.

That's an interesting comment. Not being judgemental about it, I would find it curious if anyone had said it.

You see, I do alot of things that are ingrained. When in public, in a restaurant for instance, I sit with my back to the wall, always facing with a view to the front door / cash register area. It's something that I do without thinking. But I recognize that most people don't do it.

I sometimes go off into my own little world while waiting (in a line, in the doctor's office, etc.) and do some minor martial arts thing. It's a habit that just occurs. But that doesn't mean that I don't get that people look at me funny when I do it.

How is it that these individuals could do something so out of the norm for the society in which they live, and not understand that it could be singled out as peculiar (no matter what the interpretation of the actual behavior).

 

[MJS]

obviously most of us, myself included, think this action is bat **** crazy...
but I am sure these guys hang out with a bunch of other guys who do the same exact thing, see it in virtually all their social gatherings and do not think its wierd.
I would venture to guess they are not dumb as much as they are ignorant to other people.... just a guess though

Yes, you make a valid point. My point was simply perhaps there's a time and place for everything. Sure, you hang out with people who share similar beliefs, habits,etc., yes, of course you're not going to see anything wrong with it. But its common sense. Just because a family lets their kids act like wild animals at home, jumping and climbing all over the furniture with their shoes on, doesnt mean that when they come to my house, I'm going to automatically share their views. Again, a time and place, and my house is neither the time nor the place. Just like the plane wasn't the time or the place.

 

[MJS]

The "it matters to this starfish" argument doesn't indicate not understanding statistics. It indicates having a different set of values.

Had the airline trained their staff better on identifying dangerous behavior, this would never have happened.

On the other hand, if I decide to blow up a plane I'm definitely planting a bomb in a phylactery after this.

Well, I'll give you part of that....training for ALL airline employees is certainly in need. Just look at all the TSA threads that're posted on here. LOL. But as others have said, this no doubt still would've happened.

Lets say there was better training. Then what? The only people that would've known what was going on, was possibly the airline employees. As I said, its not the job of the average Joe public, to learn and know about every single religion in the world. So, if there was better training, what would or should the airline people have done? Nothing? Made an announcement to the passengers? "Ladies and Gentlemen. You'll notice a group of men seated in section 2, seats a,b,c. They're going to begin chanting and acting weird, disregarding all of our instructions, and strapping things to their bodies. But have no fear. Everything is ok." Sorry, thats what I grab my **** and get the hell off the plane or tackle the guys who're not doing what 95% of the plane is doing.

 

[jks9199]

The problem is actually simple. The religious artifacts only compounded it.

They refused to comply with the reasonable directions of the flight crew to remain in their seats, with the seatbelts on. They then did further acts that added to the suspicion.

The flight crew had a duty to report it, just like I have the duty to investigate a possible crime. Would things have been helped had the flight crew been aware of the religious ritual? Sure. But there was still a combination of specific actions that led to reasonable and articulable suspicions. The flight crew reported their concerns, and the law enforcement authorities on the ground conducted an investigation. When the situation was understood and the suspicions allayed, the travelers went on their way.

 

[CanuckMA]

Likely because of scheduling, it was the time and the plane happenned to be the place. I'm not going to try to explain why it is of prime importance. It just is.

And if the crew was trained, when a passenger raised concerns, they could have explained what is happening.

Training does not have to delve deep into religions. It's rather simple, Jews pray 3 times, morning, late afternoon and evening. Morning prayers involve a prayer shawl and little boxes on their forehead and left arm. That's it. No more training than that is really needed.

 

[punisher73]

Ok, maybe I'm missing a big part of this. How many flights have people of this religion taken? How many times have the airlines had a problem with this? This is the first one I can think of or heard of that makes me wonder two things.

1) They obviously weren't the first ones to fly during their prayer time. Do they HAVE to kneel on the floor blocking the aisles or could it be done while seating?

2) It sounds like they wanted to draw attention to themselves by ignoring request to be in their seats like everyone else was required to do, and kneeling in the aisles.

While working with alot of INS detainees. I also was in charge of alot of Muslim people. They were all devote, but some of them would do their prayers in private so they wouldn't be disturbed or make a scene. There were others who always chose to do their prayers in a public area of the jail to make it known what they were doing. Those guys were also the biggest pains in the butt about all the other rules that they had to obey but didn't want to. Same thing with many Christians, the ones that make the biggest stink about their religion are usually the biggest pains in the butt about other things non-religious in nature.

Wonder why that is?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Perhaps a dumb question but is there specific times of the day when those of the Hebrew or Muslim faith HAVE to pray? Like they get kicked out of the club, or get a penalty or something if they don't? Can it be made up for later, no problems? Surely there must be circumstances when you can't pray at the time as your community requires you to do.

There needs to be some common sense, you're on a friggn airplane, what till it lands.

Almost every religion I know of has dispensations for when you CANNOT comply reasonably with the requirements of your faith. The Jewish faith is, to the best of my knowledge, particularly well-versed in common sense - you do what you must do by law, then attend to your religious requirements as soon as you can later.

 

[CanuckMA]

All but 3 mitzvot can be suspended to save a life.

Prayers should be done standing. OTOH, I've prayed sitting. However, for morning prayers tallit and teffilin must be worn.

The greater question is was it the standing, or the putting on of teffilin and praying in a 'strange' language? There is movement in prayer. So it's not like the person can just sit quietly. Parying will attract attention. Better training of flight crews can mitigate this.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

All but 3 mitzvot can be suspended to save a life.

Prayers should be done standing. OTOH, I've prayed sitting. However, for morning prayers tallit and teffilin must be worn.

The greater question is was it the standing, or the putting on of teffilin and praying in a 'strange' language? There is movement in prayer. So it's not like the person can just sit quietly. Parying will attract attention. Better training of flight crews can mitigate this.

The example I witnessed - the man who blocked the door to the hotel I was trying to enter - he was swaying back and forth, chanting in (I presume) Hebrew, with his eyes closed. He completely ignored all comments and requests to move from in front of the door he was blocking, and when I 'moved' him by shoving as politely as I could, he never acknowledged the fact that I was doing it. He didn't stop doing what he was doing, and I had to literally shove him out of the way so that I and others could get by him.

I frankly find it difficult to believe that he was required to stand in that very spot; or that he was incapable of responding to polite requests to step aside. If that's a requirement, then yeah, that's kind of a problem. On a plane, more so. I mean what if they guy I ran into had been crossing the street when overcome by the need to begin his prayers? Is traffic supposed to stop and wait quietly whilst he does his thing?

But as noted; although I have had quite a bit of experience amongst the Orthodox communities, I've seen very few people wearing teffilin or chanting loudly in Hebrew. It is unusual for most Americans, I'd wager. Even in communities of Hassidim, you just don't see it that much; either because they mostly perform their religious rituals in private, or because they don't do all those various things.

When my best friend converted to Judaism (reformed), I asked him a lot of questions, because I was curious. Some of the answers he gave startled me with their sheer common sense and respect for others. For example, he chose to keep kosher. But when I asked him if he'd eat pork if it was the only food available, he said of course he would, without hesitation, and he wouldn't feel bad about it either. He said his first commandment was to preserve his life, to survive. He also said that if he lived in a town where he was the only clergy and a man died who was of another faith, he was commanded to perform the appropriate ritual for that man's faith if he could, like a chaplain in the military does. I found that compassionate and very decent. A religion I can have a lot of respect for.

Point being, even though I have deep respect for Judaism, I am not at all interested in experiencing what these gentlemen appeared to have done on the plane. Yes, I would have known what they were doing, having seen it before. But I'm not surprised that most people wouldn't, and it was outrageous - in my opinion - that the men chose to ignore the instructions of the flight crew. I'd have had them strapped into their seats toot sweet. Religious requirements come second to passenger safety - or in this case, that perception.

 

[crushing]

While I understand the concern, this:

is clearly not a man wearing a bomb. A little religious education would do everyone some good, and at least prevent unnecessary panic.

That said, they certainly didn't acquit themselves well. Some sort of charge sounds appropriate, although it had better not be one of these new, ridiculous terrorism-related charges that we've invented in the past 10 years.

In the context of the above picture, especially now with the knowledge of what they are, they do not appear to be dangerous. It doesn't have to be a bomb to be dangerous. Now imagine three men refusing to follow instructions to remain seated and begin pulling these black devices and electrical tape out of their bags.

This incident also says something about the confidence in the security theater screening procedures prior to the flight.

 

[CanuckMA]

First off, realize that a lot of 'choices' for Reform Jews are not so for Orthodox. And that is the segment you will find praying in public.

As I said earlier, we pray 3 times daily. Morning, afternoon and evening. Dailight hours are divided into 12 'hours'. The 'hour' can be as short as 45 minutes in winter, and as long as 72 minutes in summer. Prayer times are fixed.

Morning prayer must be in the first 4 hours.
Afternoon, between 1/2 hours after noon time to just before nightfall
Evening after nightfall.

While most times they are done at home or in synagogue, it is not always possible for travellers. It is easier in the summer.

You do not need to stand in a certain spot. I find it hard to imagine why one would need to do it in a hallway, blocking a door. And while standing is prefered, mandatory for some, it is possible to accomodate sitting when absolutely necessary.

And nothing short of a life threatening emergency will interupt an Orthodox man while he is praying.

 

[CanuckMA]

In the context of the above picture, especially now with the knowledge of what they are, they do not appear to be dangerous. It doesn't have to be a bomb to be dangerous. Now imagine three men refusing to follow instructions to remain seated and begin pulling these black devices and electrical tape out of their bags.

This incident also says something about the confidence in the security theater screening procedures prior to the flight.

It's not tape, they are leather straps.

And you are right, one would think that at least the flight crew should have more confidence that any object allowed on board is safe.

The greatest hassle is security, as I'm often asked to open them, they are nor designed to be opened regurlaly, and idiot security trying to examine them. These things are fragile and expensive. A decent set of teffilin can cost around $1K.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

First off, realize that a lot of 'choices' for Reform Jews are not so for Orthodox. And that is the segment you will find praying in public.

As I said earlier, we pray 3 times daily. Morning, afternoon and evening. Dailight hours are divided into 12 'hours'. The 'hour' can be as short as 45 minutes in winter, and as long as 72 minutes in summer. Prayer times are fixed.

Morning prayer must be in the first 4 hours.
Afternoon, between 1/2 hours after noon time to just before nightfall
Evening after nightfall.

While most times they are done at home or in synagogue, it is not always possible for travellers. It is easier in the summer.

You do not need to stand in a certain spot. I find it hard to imagine why one would need to do it in a hallway, blocking a door. And while standing is prefered, mandatory for some, it is possible to accomodate sitting when absolutely necessary.

And nothing short of a life threatening emergency will interupt an Orthodox man while he is praying.

OK, thanks for the information. However, whilst being understanding of these requirements and respectful of them to the extent that they do not infringe on my life, well-being, or in cases, just my ability to pass through a simple doorway, I also note that my respect for the religious requirements of others does not extend to the need to be bound by their rules myself. I will do whatever I can reasonably do to accommodate their needs. They key, however, is 'reasonable' and I get to decide what that is for me (as others do for theirs).

 

[CanuckMA]

OK, thanks for the information. However, whilst being understanding of these requirements and respectful of them to the extent that they do not infringe on my life, well-being, or in cases, just my ability to pass through a simple doorway, I also note that my respect for the religious requirements of others does not extend to the need to be bound by their rules myself. I will do whatever I can reasonably do to accommodate their needs. They key, however, is 'reasonable' and I get to decide what that is for me (as others do for theirs).

That I have to agree with. There is not much that can be done about the plane. If I catch a cross country flight that leaves before sunrise and takes over 4 hours, I'll have to pray in the plane. Once I'm off the plane however, I'll find an unobtrusive corner to pray. It is possible that in your encounter, it was the only place available, but I find it hard to believe. However, if I'm in a public place and have to pray, I expect to not be disturbed providing I'm not impeding traffic or safety.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That I have to agree with. There is not much that can be done about the plane. If I catch a cross country flight that leaves before sunrise and takes over 4 hours, I'll have to pray in the plane. Once I'm off the plane however, I'll find an unobtrusive corner to pray. It is possible that in your encounter, it was the only place available, but I find it hard to believe. However, if I'm in a public place and have to pray, I expect to not be disturbed providing I'm not impeding traffic or safety.

Yeah, I didn't get it either. The guy was standing in the entrance of a doorway that was adjacent to a large empty lobby type room. About all I could imagine was that maybe he thought it was an alcove and the door would be unused while he stood in it. But I can't imagine why he could not move once he started and realized that people were lining up trying to get in and out of the door. A mistake is easy to understand, but a bit less so to close one's eyes and pretend nobody is being inconvenienced by that mistake. God won't understand if the guy shuffles his feet a few yards over?

I also think that sometimes there is cultural insensitivity that goes both ways. Here in Detroit, we've had some problems with orthodox folks walking to synagogue in neighborhoods that are no longer as safe as they once where; they've been harassed and even assaulted a few times. While demanding additional police protection (which is reasonable, I feel), they were also approached by a local Christian church, who offered to give rides and walk with them to synagogue to add 'strength in numbers' as a solidarity offer. They were rebuffed, in my opinion, rather rudely. The response? "Nobody asked you for help." Period. OK, then. No help. Got it. Good luck to ya.

I respect the Hasidim. Some of them could use a few lessons in manners, IMHO. Yes, I know they have their own way - but they live in a society that observes a few other rules, like politeness. We respect them; they could maybe insert the words 'please' and 'thank you' in a few of their sentences.

I hope you understand, this is not an attack. Just an observation based on my experiences; cultural understanding and respect goes both ways.

 

[crushing]

It's not tape, they are leather straps.

I know, that is why I italicized the words. My comments were in regards to what they were perceived to be.