Anyone Know How To Do The Forward Roll?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Obito Uchiha, Mar 22, 2017.

  1. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Still, learning an improper way to roll for your martial system can take some times years to unlearn and you may be stuck with it for life. I personally have witnessed people unable to shake their previous training and it has affected them.
     
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  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I have never witnessed that. Normally if a person can roll they get the variation in about 5 minutes.

    Certainly not years.

    If they cant roll. Then they have to get over that initial issue. Still not years. But a lot more class time.
     
  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    When doing a forward roll do you roll on your spine? Do you roll on your shoulders? Do you do both? If so then what is the basic mechanic of that roll? It's going to either be on the along the spin or across the spine. I don't know of any other way to get into forward roll other than things that we should do, such as using the neck or face to start the roll.

    I think what Drop Bear is trying to highlight is that. Someone who has an idea of what is involved in a roll can learned the appropriate technique faster than someone who has never done a forward roll before. I did forward rolls in gymnastics when I was 8. We were taught to role on the spine. Then at that age of 40 I had to learn how to roll using my shoulder. My first 2 times horrible, but it was still better than those who had never done it. I must have practice that type of roll maybe 5 times total. Then early this year, 4 years later the roll came up again. I was able to roll using my right shoulder on the first try. I've never did it using my left shoulder before so it only took me 2 tries to get it. The only reason I was able to learn it so quickly was because I was familiar with the forward roll from back in gymnastics. There is no way I could have made such progress if I was like the other students who have never done any type of forward role before.

    Understanding and getting a feel for what's required and how the body needs to move and balance helps a lot. The OP has a neck injury probably because the OP wasn't familiar with the concept and requirements that would produce a successful flip. To be honest in terms of rolling I can only see the exit of the roll changing more than the entry.
    I probably wouldn't learn from this guy


    This guy yeah he's got some nice moves. Most important notice that the entry to the roll doesn't change much, but the exit of the roll does.


    I always wondered what good are martial arts rolls in a fight and I'm starting to think that the rolls weren't just for fighting. But if you have to flee, then a jump from a high place, say off of a building, then that roll could be the difference between a broken leg and an escape. This would especially be true for anyone who performed the historical roles of the ninja. Maybe I'm reading too much into the roll, but I just can't see someone just doing one for no reason in a fight unless it's a recovery move.
     
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  4. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The problem with learning anything is that if you practice it over and over again it will be there and may take a long time to unlearn it and replace it with a better method. Of course this may differ based on the individual. Certainly people can do it and have done it but..... that doesn't mean that it is the optimum way to learn. Why not just learn it correctly in your system from the start? So what I said in the above quotes is still correct.

    Budo Taijutsu rolls are different then say if you were learning BJJ breakfalls and rolls or Judo, parkour, etc. They are not exactly the same. While certain fundamental movements may be similar there are differences. For instance in the Takamatsuden arts you have to learn to roll or breakfall with a weapon in your hand as it is primarily a tool based system. So learning the parkour version in the previous page would do any Takamatsuden practitioner a disservice in the long run. Instead they should learn the "correct way" for their system from their instructor.

    I don't know what is hard to understand from the above???
     
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  5. dunc

    dunc Green Belt

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    Here you go - this is how it's done at our place

    Generally speaking I think it's best to learn from having one knee on the floor



     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
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  6. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    Do we know whether the OP actually trains in one of the Takamatsuden systems? I know he posted this thread in the Ninjutsu sub forum, but the only other post he's made which gives a clue to his training background is one where he describes the way he throws a Karate-style round kick.

    If he actually trains in the Bujinkan, then the forward roll would probably have been one of the very first things he was taught. (I don't know about the various Bujinkan offshoots, but I imagine the same applies to most of them as well.) In that case, I could see him asking for advice on compensating for his hurt neck or overcoming some of the common difficulties new students have with the forward roll, but not asking for a step by step explanation of the basic mechanics.
     
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  7. KangTsai

    KangTsai 2nd Black Belt

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    Crouch down, make a diamond with your hands, roll on your shoulder from your arm, not your spine, finish by standing from a cross-legged position.
    This is the roll you do for hard landings and stuff, just in case this isn't the "forward roll" you meant.
     
  8. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't understand why the concerted effort to force people to buy in for information that is basically free.

    Personaly i consider the behavior predatory.
     
  9. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    He has started. He is doing an art which includes instruction on how to roll. But he wants advice on how to do the rolls in the art he's training in... not the random variety you are presenting.

    Seriously. Please understand that everything you've said is irrelevant to the actual request from the OP, no matter how close you, with your lack of experience, think it is.
     
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    The mechanics are the same as our roll. I'm going to play with that as a good starting point for students. Might be easier to stay inside the roll with that hand attached.
     
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  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I've not seen a functional front roll that wouldn't work with what we do in NGA (except for a tumbling roll that goes straight over the head), so I see this the way you do, DB. However, I don't know the roll they are discussing, and it's possible they need some specific elements that I don't, and learning the roll the wrong way might cause an issue. The closest I can come would be if someone came in with that tumbling roll, it would take more time to adjust that to free up an arm and get the head outside than to start them from scratch.
     
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  12. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I remember when a stage actor came into a Bujinkan school and wanted to learn. He had spent many years learning poorly executed stage breakfalls and swordsmanship that was not compatible with Budo Taijutsu. After having a very difficult time and realizing that his previous habits would take quite some time to unlearn he basically gave up and moved on. It was not for lack of trying on his part or lack of the teacher's really trying to help him.
     
  13. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    The stage actor, that sounds like a personal thing. Where the stage actor didn't want to let go of what he knew and learn a different way. This is different than breaking a bad habit. If someone says, here I will show you how to do a different breakfall, then you learn the different breakfall. The mindset should be the same if I show you 5 different punching techniques. You learn 5 different punching techniques and no one ever claims, that bad habit stopped them from learning 5 different punching techniques. Put them in a different system and such as Muay Thai then that person learn the attacks of Muay Thai.
     
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  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    It's not necessarily a matter of not wanting to let go. Here's an example: I changed the back roll I teach (from the one I learned from my instructors). My wife used the old roll for 8 years, then had a few years away from it. She has now been doing the new roll for about 2 years. She still does the old version out of habit about 20% of the time. In this case, it's inconsequential, because both work for our art. And she has never resisted the new roll - she actually likes it better.
     
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  15. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Not quite a personal thing. He trained for years learning breakfalls that work on a stage are not really designed to be effective. In other words they are designed to look good for the crowd. He just could not shake what he had learned. Similarly to gpseymour's wife. While what she does still works the stage actors skill did not work. It did not protect his body well during training. Some times it is hard to let go of some thing you have done for years. It takes time. He didn't have the patience. It would be like myself trying to learn his stage breakfalls. A. my body after this many years (36 of performing this style of rolls) wouldn't allow me to do it well. B. I would constantly be utilizing a breakfall or roll that was quiet and or non-damaging to my body that might not necessarily look great on stage. I would suck doing stage breakfalls! ;)

    All of the above means zip to the OP's question.
    The best answer for him is to see a doctor regarding his neck and then talk to his instructor and get training from him to perform techniques correctly in their art. Rather than trying to learn some thing here or by video!
     
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  16. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Your wife's situation is different. She learned the new roll technique correct? Then the old technique didn't make it harder for her to learn the new, and she does the new roll 80% of the time which is good. If the roll that she does 20% of the time is correct technique and the roll that she does 80% of the time is correct technique. Then your wife is 100% correct technique when she uses either roll. What your wife has is an option to do 2 things correctly.

    I can promise you that the 20% would fall to zero if she believes the old roll to be incorrect. We hold onto things that we believe are correct and useful and get rid of the things that we believe to be wrong and useless.
     
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  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    He's an actor so why would he get rid of break falls that are designed to look good for the stage? Think about it. If you worked as an actor and you were taught to do breakfalls that looked good for the movies, then why would you let go of that?
     
  18. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly which made it very hard for him to do this correctly in a different art.

    The OP is training we believe in a Takamatsuden art. He should learn how to do things correctly in that art not what was suggested earlier in this thread by others. So he should learn the correct method for his chosen art from his instructor!
     
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  19. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I remember doing a professional wrestling course once with a guy who had never done rolling before. It is a variation of what I did but was pretty easy to master.

    He never got it and eventually quit.
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Actually, it did make it hard for her to learn it. It took her longer than the new students to get the new version. And no, she's not 100% correct. She still has a hesitation part of the time. The difference between the two isn't as big (nor as important) as the difference Brian's student was dealing with. If her old roll wasn't functional, I wouldn't be able to let her take techniques that require a back roll.
     
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