Anyone familiar with Chung Do Kwan?

[wab25]

I want it to be something external. Something that isn't just "I'm 4th degree because I think I am."

What I was thinking is some sort of group with a relatively simple online video submission or something to that extent.

I thought about this last night on the way home from the dojo... I think I can help you out....

Get me video of you demonstrating the following:

1. an escape from an outside wrist grab
2. an escape from an inside wrist grab
3. your V-Lock
4. your Z-Lock
5. 4 hip throws - each done from static, then done from a punch being thrown at you
6. a hip throw to ground pin combination
7. a standing choke (both people standing)
8. a choke from ground fighting
9. a combination that starts from an attacker grabbing your wrist, you use a wrist escape, into a wrist lock, into a hip throw, transition to a pin and finish with an arm bar

I will look at the video, note things to improve or change about your techniques. You then shoot a second video, showing those improvements. After seeing the improvements.... I will promote you to 4th degree black belt in Danzan Ryu. You will now have an external source, showing that you are 4th degree black belt.

It won't be from a Danzan Ryu Organization.... but thats ok, as you don't want to be part of a Danzan Ryu organization. Further, you don't want to teach Danzan Ryu.... but your own style of martial arts.

While this sounds a bit on the cheesy side.... isn't this exactly what you are trying to do with Chung Do Kwan? Or Tang So Do? Or any of the others you mentioned.....? You want to come in, find out what you need to pass the test for 4th degree black belt. You want this to open your school, and teach your curriculum.... which is not KKW, not Chung Do Kwan, not Tang So Do and definitely not Danzan Ryu. You don't want to be part of their organization, you don't want to teach their curriculum, you don't want to teach their forms.... Nothing wrong with this. You have put together your curriculum, from your experience in the years you have been training martial arts. Go out and teach it.... don't let some piece of paper, from a organization you don't want to join, with a curriculum you don't want to teach and forms that you don't want to teach... hold you up from teaching your curriculum.

What if someone saw your class and asked about it here? We would say, he has a legitimate 3rd degree black belt in TKD, along with some BJJ experience and somehow is a 4th degree black belt in Danzan Ryu... now go check out his class, see how he teaches, feel the vibe from the class, look to see that his students are learning what he is teaching... if you like the classes, the people and the instructor, then start training.

 

[skribs]

I thought about this last night on the way home from the dojo... I think I can help you out....

Get me video of you demonstrating the following:

1. an escape from an outside wrist grab
2. an escape from an inside wrist grab
3. your V-Lock
4. your Z-Lock
5. 4 hip throws - each done from static, then done from a punch being thrown at you
6. a hip throw to ground pin combination
7. a standing choke (both people standing)
8. a choke from ground fighting
9. a combination that starts from an attacker grabbing your wrist, you use a wrist escape, into a wrist lock, into a hip throw, transition to a pin and finish with an arm bar

I will look at the video, note things to improve or change about your techniques. You then shoot a second video, showing those improvements. After seeing the improvements.... I will promote you to 4th degree black belt in Danzan Ryu. You will now have an external source, showing that you are 4th degree black belt.

It won't be from a Danzan Ryu Organization.... but thats ok, as you don't want to be part of a Danzan Ryu organization. Further, you don't want to teach Danzan Ryu.... but your own style of martial arts.

While this sounds a bit on the cheesy side.... isn't this exactly what you are trying to do with Chung Do Kwan? Or Tang So Do? Or any of the others you mentioned.....? You want to come in, find out what you need to pass the test for 4th degree black belt. You want this to open your school, and teach your curriculum.... which is not KKW, not Chung Do Kwan, not Tang So Do and definitely not Danzan Ryu. You don't want to be part of their organization, you don't want to teach their curriculum, you don't want to teach their forms.... Nothing wrong with this. You have put together your curriculum, from your experience in the years you have been training martial arts. Go out and teach it.... don't let some piece of paper, from a organization you don't want to join, with a curriculum you don't want to teach and forms that you don't want to teach... hold you up from teaching your curriculum.

What if someone saw your class and asked about it here? We would say, he has a legitimate 3rd degree black belt in TKD, along with some BJJ experience and somehow is a 4th degree black belt in Danzan Ryu... now go check out his class, see how he teaches, feel the vibe from the class, look to see that his students are learning what he is teaching... if you like the classes, the people and the instructor, then start training.

That's great for my white belts. What do I do when my students reach 2nd degree? Or transfer in as 1st or 2nd degree?

Starting as a 3rd degree with no path forward might work for a short time. But it's not a future proof system. It has a low ceiling for my students. I want something more sustainable.

So what's the long-term solution for someone in my situation?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That's great for my white belts. What do I do when my students reach 2nd degree? Or transfer in as 1st or 2nd degree?

Starting as a 3rd degree with no path forward might work for a short time. But it's not a future proof system. It has a low ceiling for my students. I want something more sustainable.

So what's the long-term solution for someone in my situation?

I haven't commented on this for a while but i've been thinking about it, and came up with a list that's pretty similar to yours, if you want to teach sometime soon (ie: in the next few years).

* Open your school, and connect it with kukkiwon. It'll be years before someone is ready to advance, so sign up with someone as a third degree, and learn to deal with whatever teaching you can get just so you can continue to rank. This way, you'll have to actively be attending someone else's school while running your own in the same/similar style. Easy to do if you franchise or if it's near people you have a connection with. Living somewhere else, you're going to have a very tough time finding someone willing to do that (unless you franchise under them), and it'll probably blow up in your face if you hide your school from them.

* Open your school, with the limit of second degree. When students start getting close, try to find someone in a similar style who is willing to come down for gradings, which would be a huge mess in terms of what style they're actually ranked in, or just let them know that that's the limit that you can promote. Not fun, and that would be a turn-off to a lot of people, way before they get to that point.

* Self-promote as you get experience. Continue your own training however you can, with bjj, muay thai, karate, TKD seminars, competitions, whatever. You'll be promoting yourself in your own style, and can recreate your style to include what you want from the other styles your training. You'd be basically the head of the style, so no limits in rank. There'll probably be people who call you a charlatan online, but it won't impact your student base all that much, and for some they won't get the normal TKD advantage of having transferrable rank if they move elsewhere, but a lot of people in a lot of arts have been able to live with that.

* Teach sans rank. Teach 'skribs martial arts', and have it not be a belt ranking system. You can do something like a beginner/intermediate/advanced structure if you want to keep the structure, but rank isn't fully necessary, and you can still organize without having to give people xdegree black belts.

If you're not willing to do those, or they're not viable (all of them have their own drawbacks), then unfortunately I don't see any other answers for you. You already know your instructor won't work with you further, and you wouldn't be teaching his style anyway; this is the dilemma everyone who wants to teach but also has found flaws with their initial style and wants to branch off must face.

For the record, if I were in your shoes, I would probably go with starting my own style, becoming the head, and self-promoting as needed, or just give myself the role of 'founder' as you work out your post-black curriculum. And in my own position, if I chose to teach, I'd be creating my own curriculum, and setting up beginner/intermediate/advanced, rather than sticking with a belt system.

 

[wab25]

That's great for my white belts. What do I do when my students reach 2nd degree? Or transfer in as 1st or 2nd degree?

The same thing you were planning on doing when your students reach 3rd degree.... Or when a 2nd or 3rd degree transfer comes in....

Starting as a 3rd degree with no path forward might work for a short time. But it's not a future proof system. It has a low ceiling for my students. I want something more sustainable.

This may be why the creator of a style typically did not have a degree ranking.... many of them, had only 2nd or 3rd degree black belts in their previous arts... but went on to create and establish their own art. I am not saying that you are going out to create Skrib Kwan Do.... (if you do I want royalties on the name btw... ) But, you are establishing a new TKD curriculum. That makes you, by definition, the authority on your curriculum.... meaning you can promote students to any rank you want, within your curriculum.

If you get your students out and competing and winning in the local tournaments, I am sure you will bump into a bunch of other schools and people. Many will like the idea of training together, trading seminars (you come share with my students this bit you are really good at, then I will come share with your students the bit I am good at).... you may find new roads that you currently are unaware of, to further your own advancement.

Also realize, that advancement does not always mean higher rank, and higher rank does not always mean more advancement. I have not been promoted in 17-18 years now. However, I am not the same martial artist that I was after my last promotion. I have learned and progressed quite a bit in my understanding of my art and my application of my art.... even though there is no one here for me to check the necessary boxes to get a promotion.

I say get started and teach. If you build it, they will come.... the students and the opportunities....

 

[skribs]

I haven't commented on this for a while but i've been thinking about it, and came up with a list that's pretty similar to yours, if you want to teach sometime soon (ie: in the next few years).

* Open your school, and connect it with kukkiwon. It'll be years before someone is ready to advance, so sign up with someone as a third degree, and learn to deal with whatever teaching you can get just so you can continue to rank. This way, you'll have to actively be attending someone else's school while running your own in the same/similar style. Easy to do if you franchise or if it's near people you have a connection with. Living somewhere else, you're going to have a very tough time finding someone willing to do that (unless you franchise under them), and it'll probably blow up in your face if you hide your school from them.

* Open your school, with the limit of second degree. When students start getting close, try to find someone in a similar style who is willing to come down for gradings, which would be a huge mess in terms of what style they're actually ranked in, or just let them know that that's the limit that you can promote. Not fun, and that would be a turn-off to a lot of people, way before they get to that point.

* Self-promote as you get experience. Continue your own training however you can, with bjj, muay thai, karate, TKD seminars, competitions, whatever. You'll be promoting yourself in your own style, and can recreate your style to include what you want from the other styles your training. You'd be basically the head of the style, so no limits in rank. There'll probably be people who call you a charlatan online, but it won't impact your student base all that much, and for some they won't get the normal TKD advantage of having transferrable rank if they move elsewhere, but a lot of people in a lot of arts have been able to live with that.

* Teach sans rank. Teach 'skribs martial arts', and have it not be a belt ranking system. You can do something like a beginner/intermediate/advanced structure if you want to keep the structure, but rank isn't fully necessary, and you can still organize without having to give people xdegree black belts.

If you're not willing to do those, or they're not viable (all of them have their own drawbacks), then unfortunately I don't see any other answers for you. You already know your instructor won't work with you further, and you wouldn't be teaching his style anyway; this is the dilemma everyone who wants to teach but also has found flaws with their initial style and wants to branch off must face.

For the record, if I were in your shoes, I would probably go with starting my own style, becoming the head, and self-promoting as needed, or just give myself the role of 'founder' as you work out your post-black curriculum. And in my own position, if I chose to teach, I'd be creating my own curriculum, and setting up beginner/intermediate/advanced, rather than sticking with a belt system.

One concern I have about self-promotion is how my BJJ gym would feel.

Honestly, it's not the most desirable solution (I've made very clear my opinion on third-party validation), but it's my fallback plan and currently the most likely scenario.

I think receiving 3rd party promotion for myself would involve less logistics and be more desirable than having 3rd party promotion of my students.

I would probably do things differently if I went sans rank. Rank is a piece of it, and I feel like going sans rank just masks the rank issue instead of fixing it.

Good ideas, but as you said, pros and cons of each.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

One concern I have about self-promotion is how my BJJ gym would feel.

Honestly, it's not the most desirable solution (I've made very clear my opinion on third-party validation), but it's my fallback plan and currently the most likely scenario.

I think receiving 3rd party promotion for myself would involve less logistics and be more desirable than having 3rd party promotion of my students.

I would probably do things differently if I went sans rank. Rank is a piece of it, and I feel like going sans rank just masks the rank issue instead of fixing it.

Good ideas, but as you said, pros and cons of each.

Yes, they'd probably have issues with that. It's a very different culture.

Going without rank is much easier for me than it would be for you, unfortunately. I've got rank and/or experience in a couple different arts, that I would genuinely be mixing together for a curriculum, and there wouldn't really be a belt ranking system that's appropriate for all of them.

 

[skribs]

Yes, they'd probably have issues with that. It's a very different culture.

Going without rank is much easier for me than it would be for you, unfortunately. I've got rank and/or experience in a couple different arts, that I would genuinely be mixing together for a curriculum, and there wouldn't really be a belt ranking system that's appropriate for all of them.

Yeah, mine is heavily based on TKD. Most of the elements from HKD, BJJ, and MT come in at black belt, when we get to the application level.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah, mine is heavily based on TKD. Most of the elements from HKD, BJJ, and MT come in at black belt, when we get to the application level.

If you are willing to wait 5-10 years, you may have a bb in BJJ and be much more experienced in MT, and develop a mixed curriculum. I know it's not your goal at the moment, but just another option to think about where you could feel more confident in your (logistical) ability to run a dojo.

 

[skribs]

If you are willing to wait 5-10 years, you may have a bb in BJJ and be much more experienced in MT, and develop a mixed curriculum. I know it's not your goal at the moment, but just another option to think about where you could feel more confident in your (logistical) ability to run a dojo.

Probably closer to 10. I suck at BJJ and my progress has really slowed at blue.

Not doing MT anymore. It's rougher on the head than I like, especially with a white collar day job. We do advanced BJJ class next to MT during the same time slot now, so I switched to that.

 

[jks9199]

One concern I have about self-promotion is how my BJJ gym would feel.

Honestly, it's not the most desirable solution (I've made very clear my opinion on third-party validation), but it's my fallback plan and currently the most likely scenario.

I think receiving 3rd party promotion for myself would involve less logistics and be more desirable than having 3rd party promotion of my students.

I would probably do things differently if I went sans rank. Rank is a piece of it, and I feel like going sans rank just masks the rank issue instead of fixing it.

Good ideas, but as you said, pros and cons of each.

You're not self-promoting to teach BJJ. You're doing it to teach Scribs Martial Arts. Just be straight about what you're doing, and what you're teaching. It's the made up ranks backed up by bogus associations and certificate mills that look bad to anyone else. Someone honestly teaching what they think is reasonable and right and being honest about their background isn't a problem.

 

[skribs]

Yes, they'd probably have issues with that. It's a very different culture.

Going without rank is much easier for me than it would be for you, unfortunately. I've got rank and/or experience in a couple different arts, that I would genuinely be mixing together for a curriculum, and there wouldn't really be a belt ranking system that's appropriate for all of them.

I've been thinking about it (yes, I know its a trend that I think about this kind of stuff a lot). And I know I've mentioned it before. It seems the options are:

• (1) Join an organization.
  • (1A) So that they can promote me for credentials, and then I can teach my students my own stuff.
  • (1B) And teach what they teach so my students get the same opportunities.
• (2) Find a remote mentor.
  • (2A) Find someone who will act as a consultant and auditor of my program and provide me third-party credentials.
  • (2B) Find someone who will accept videos of me doing XYZ and then send me a certificate.
• (3) Be unaffiliated.
  • (3A) Stay at 3rd degree, low ceiling for my students.
  • (3B) Self-promote. Bad for my reputation, but maybe the only option to gain rank.
  • (3C) Be promoted by my students (either quid-pro-quo promotions by someone I promote to 3rd, or have a quorum of those at 2nd). Same ethical problems, honestly I'd rather just cut out the middle man and self-promote. I don't think this would be an issue if it was a quorum of Masters, but it would be weird coming from a quorum of what I would consider to be undergrad students.
  • (3D) Revise my curriculum to go sans belts and belt tests. Honestly, a lot would change about how I'm doing things if I got rid of belts. I'm not entirely sure how much. The biggest challenge would be figuring out what to do with forms.
• (4) Wait until I have more experience and credentials in BJJ, and open a school built off of that, with a kick sparring class as an add-on.

Out of all of these, 2A, 3B, and 4 are the ones I like the best. Although I'd consider 1A if I found an organization with a lax enough structure and/or a system that I agreed with. And I am starting to think about 3D. Another option with 3D is to split the various concepts into separate classes, for example:

1. Forms class
2. Kick sparring class
3. Self-defense class (blend of HKD and MT drills)

And then when I get good at BJJ, I could add it on.

And in the case of BJJ, it's not a piece of paper I think I need. It's definitely the skill. I am 100% confident in my TKD skills and teaching ability. I have far less confidence in my BJJ skills or teaching ability.

You're not self-promoting to teach BJJ. You're doing it to teach Scribs Martial Arts. Just be straight about what you're doing, and what you're teaching. It's the made up ranks backed up by bogus associations and certificate mills that look bad to anyone else. Someone honestly teaching what they think is reasonable and right and being honest about their background isn't a problem.

No, but if I am willing to self-promote, then folks in BJJ might see that and lower their opinion of me. That could have detrimental effects on my training and/or progression.