ANY Fighting Style can work if you train it right.

[drop bear]

no, that's not a valid comparison, if you punch them and they fall over, was that due to you punch or your strength, ? There is no way of knowing if the punch would have worked if you hadn't done all those press ups

Sorry it is the best you can do. Other than just guessing.

 

[Steve]

well yea, footballer practise football movement golfer practise golf swings and fighter practice footwork and movement.

it is indeed a prerequisite of getting good at anything. I can't tell you how many hours I've dedicated to being good at pool

By doing kata?

 

[Flying Crane]

No. I am suggesting that people spar, and not always against people who train exactly what they do.

Pretty simple really.

Do you know that people don't spar? Do you have details on everyone's training schedule?

 

[drop bear]

What seems to be overlooked is that when it comes right down to it, in the martial arts there is no evidence of anything beyond what someone did on some particular day. What is on film simply documents one particular event. That person's success, or another person's lack of success, does not indicate what some other person may or may not be capable of, whether or not it is captured on film.

I think that some people like to call for "evidence" in the belief that this somehow elevates their approach to martial training on a scientific level. It does not. The nature of the topic does not lend itself to such demands. I think they honestly believe that it does. But they are wrong.

You don't think training in a system that suggests there is no need for evidence. Just a little bit dodgy?

 

[jobo]

By doing kata?

the pool equivalent of kata, which is just knocking balls around a table with no oppoinent in sight
that's one very good way of I training movement patterns, im not saying that kata is the only way, but that your previous statement that it has no benefit at all was wide of the mark

 

[Steve]

the pool equivalent of kata, which is just knocking balls around a table with no oppoinent in sight
that's one very good way of I training movement patterns, im not saying that kata is the only way, but that your previous statement that it has no benefit at all was wide of the mark

Knocking balls around a table is pool kata? I don't know, man. You said kata is a prerequisite activity. It's not. Kata refers to something very specific. Trying to appropriate the term doesn't work.

 

[Flying Crane]

If a person is offered empirical evidence of something and refuses it, then I would agree. If what one is offering is anecdotal evidence then I would not. I'm not accusing you of that, just clarifying the difference.

Agreed. However, it is an excellent way to get information to the masses. In the absence of persons in a style without documented evidence of effectiveness just going around and fighting people one by one, if one is sincere about eliminating ignorance, then putting something out there showing effectiveness against a resisting opponent of another style for the masses is a good way to go. YT could be a way of accomplishing this, though it is not the only one. The reality though is that I don't think that such evidence does exist most of the time, and way too many people in the martial arts world are still buying into the fantasy rather than the reality of MA training.

Getting back to the premise of this thread, while I agree that there are many arts that do suffer primarily from bad training methodology, I believe there is good reason to doubt the claims that practitioners of many arts make in regards to the effectiveness of their particular system. At the end of the day, the easiest way to dispel doubt is to provide direct evidence. If one is not willing to do that, don't cry foul when people doubt.

You're telling that to the wrong guy. I never said anything about a tea kettle.

So apparently I'm giving this a second round....

Here is an analogy. I want to paint my house. I'm talking to you about my need to paint my house, and I'm telling you that Behr paints are crap, I know this to be true, never use Behr.

You ask me how I know this, because you painted your house using Behr. I tell you, well no I've never used Behr but the guy down the street from me did, and it didn't last a year before it was all peeling off and looked like crap. In fact, it looked like crap from day one, it never seemed to cover well and didn't stick.

So you tell me, well now there is a proper way to go about painting your house, and if you do it right, then any of a number of brands of paint work quite well, including Behr. First, you've got to prepare the surface, which means scraping away any loose old paint, washing off the dirt and grime, filling holes and gaps with putty, and using a primer coat where necessary. If you do that prep work properly, then any paint, including Behr, will work really well. And also, there are different formulations of paint, some are higher quality than others and are meant to last longer, and others are formulated for indoor and will not stand up to the weather and are not meant to be used on the outside of a house. So if you choose the right paint and do the prep work, it'll come out just fine. Sure, it's hard work at times, but worth it.

I ask you, how do you know this? Because I saw my neighbors house look like crap after he painted it. He spent a whole three hours painting it.

You tell me that you painted your house, both inside and out, doing the prep work and using appropriate Behr paints, and now twelve years later it still looks great. And by the way, in the last twenty years you've helped family and friends paint their houses, eight of them to be exact, using Behr paints, doing the prep work and choosing appropriate formulations, and they all looked great for at least a decade.

You suggest that maybe my neighbor didn't choose the proper paint formula or didn't do the proper prep work. I mean three whole hours for him to paint the house seems like a rush job, while you spent two weeks doing yours.

And I tell you, well I don't know anything about all that, I still say that Behr paints suck. I'll go with something else, because I just know that Behr sucks.

So I ask you this: does that anecdotal evidence have any value? Or do I need to see something on YouTube showing the aging process of paint, before I can trust Behr?

There are other reasons I might choose another brand. Price might be one, or a certain shade of green that I just love, but isn't available with Behr. So sure, there are good reasons to go elsewhere. But seriously, is this anecdotal evidence that should carry no weight, should be discarded as having no value?

 

[jobo]

Knocking balls around a table is pool kata? I don't know, man. You said kata is a prerequisite activity. It's not. Kata refers to something very specific. Trying to appropriate the term doesn't work.

its not very specific, its a specific name given to the ma version of the same activerty that is used as a training method in a lot of sports.
you can take it a step further than movement patterns and use it as visualizations which is used by sports phycologists' to improve real time performance

 

[Charlemagne]

Do you know that people don't spar? Do you have details on everyone's training schedule?

For someone who says he doesn't care what people think, you seem to care quite a bit.

And no, I don't, but if that is happening on a regular basis against persons from other styles, it would be super simple to provide evidence.

 

[Flying Crane]

For someone who says he doesn't care what people think, you seem to care quite a bit.

And no, I don't, but if that is happening on a regular basis against persons from other styles, it would be super simple to provide evidence.

Why would they need to prove anything to you?

And do you object to me participating in this discussion? It's not even a thread that you initiated.

 

[drop bear]

Why would they need to prove anything to you?

And do you object to me participating in this discussion? It's not even a thread that you initiated.

Even you paint analogy had evidence.

Without the evidence of the paint working. How does your analogy stand up?

You tell me that you painted your house, both inside and out, doing the prep work and using appropriate Behr paints, and now twelve years later it still looks great. And by the way, in the last twenty years you've helped family and friends paint their houses, eight of them to be exact, using Behr paints, doing the prep work and choosing appropriate formulations, and they all looked great for at least a decade.

You could go out and varify this. If I asked were these houses were. And you responded with. "I don't have to tell you"

Then you have issues.

 

[jobo]

edit

 

[jobo]

For someone who says he doesn't care what people think, you seem to care quite a bit.

And no, I don't, but if that is happening on a regular basis against persons from other styles, it would be super simple to provide evidence.

ok then you provided evidence that's what you do, if its so easy

 

[Charlemagne]

Why would they need to prove anything to you?

And do you object to me participating in this discussion? It's not even a thread that you initiated.

I don't object at all. I just find it odd that you claim not to care at all what people think, but then continue to argue your points after claiming you were done only a short time ago. Those things don't really equate.

As for the rest, they don't. However, as I noted before, if people doubt but you are not willing to provide evidence to set their doubts to rest, then don't be surprised, or bothered, when they don't believe you.

 

[Charlemagne]

ok then you provided evidence that's what you do, if its so easy

Evidence for the willingness of our system to go against others has been in the public forum for a very long time.

Pekiti Tirisa Kali

You could also take a look at the early Dog Brothers videos, as most of those guys were either Pekiti Tirsia or Lacoste-Inosanto kali guys.

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu

 

[jobo]

Evidence for the effectiveness of the systems I train in against others has been in the public forum for a very long time.

Pekiti Tirisa Kali

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu

so are you claiming that one of those fighter is you?

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't object at all. I just find it odd that you claim not to care at all what people think, but then continue to argue your points after claiming you were done only a short time ago. Those things don't really equate.

As for the rest, they don't. However, as I noted before, if people doubt but you are not willing to provide evidence to set their doubts to rest, then don't be surprised, or bothered, when they don't believe you.

I don't understand why you care if I come or go in this discussion. I've said that I have been willing to educate people on things in which I have experience and they do not. That is relevant to this thread. So if I choose to take part in this or other discussions, why would you find it unusual?

So....what about the paint story? Should I disregard your advice?

Likewise, should I disregard outright anything you say about your training, simply because I haven't seen it for myself?

 

[Charlemagne]

so are you claiming that one of those fighter is you?

No, I am showing the systems I train in, as that is the question at hand. The point being of the conversation that Flying Crane and myself have been having all day is that some systems have documented evidence of being willing to mix it up and some systems do not.

 

[Flying Crane]

Evidence for the willingness of our system to go against others has been in the public forum for a very long time.

Pekiti Tirisa Kali

You could also take a look at the early Dog Brothers videos, as most of those guys were either Pekiti Tirsia or Lacoste-Inosanto kali guys.

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu

Why would you feel a need to prove this to me? I am not asking for proof. I have no interest in even watching the videos. I have no reason to doubt the effectiveness of your method. I have no experience with it, so I would be an ignorant fool to declare that I believe it does not work. You train it, so if you claim it is valuable training and it works well for you, why would I ever argue with you? I have no base from which to challenge your claim.

 

[jobo]

No, I am showing the systems I train in, as that is the question at hand. The point being of the conversation that Flying Crane and myself have been having all day is that some systems have documented evidence of being willing to mix it up and some systems do not.

no the question was, can you prove that's what YOU DO, any one can post random vids from the 1970s, it might be a bit more convincing if it wasn't nearly 40 years old