Another Self defence system

[Gerry Seymour]

You know what, I've read through this post 10 times and I really don't know how to reply to it, it's that stupid. But since you were clearly trying to provoke a reaction, I will try to oblige (even though it's probably not worth my time). First off, I don't learn White Crane (my primary art) purely for self-defence, but for fitness, socialising, learning the culture and fun. If I do learn some self-defence skills along the way, that's a bonus for me. This is fine because that is exactly the same focus as my instructor, which is why he is teaching a traditional Chinese Martial Arts system rather than a more modern self-defence system. It's also why we do traditional forms, weapons and archery as well as learning self-defence. That is what I signed up for and that is what I got.

On the other hand the system in the OP labels itself as a "self-defence system", in other words, teaching self-defence is its primary goal. If it doesn't teach it effectively then one would question why you would choose it over other systems? The video is a marketing tool, to prove that the teacher is skilled, knowledgeable and most importantly that the system works. All I said was that if you wanted to prove a system's effectiveness you would show-case some novices doing the techniques as well as the instructor. Yes of course the novices won't be nearly as fast or skilled as the instructor, but they don't need to be. If someone is looking for effective self-defence they aren't going to want to choose a system that takes 20+ years of solid training in before you can use the system in a live situation. One of the reasons why bjj is so popular for self-defence is because even after just 6 months of training you are probably able to use some of the basic techniques on a resisting opponent. Can you say the same for this system?

Finally (and I'm not even sure why I need to ask this at all) what does my choice of Martial Art have anything at all to do with critiquing a self-defence system?

I'm not responding to the rest of this - it seems appropriate, but not something you need my reply on. I just wanted to talk about demonstrations not including beginners. I've done some demos where we basically did a class in front of people, with whomever showed up from the school, including folks with only a few months of training. Unfortunately, it looks like crap compared to the fight scenes from the movies. Given my 'druthers, I'd always do demos by just holding a class (using a class plan designed to show what people can do), but I've heard audience members mock when a knife defense fails because the knife attack is....well, a knife attack, and those things are dangerous, if the person means to hurt you. Often, people watching a demo (or demo video) want to see how good the art can be, and measure it against the fantasy world.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I'm not responding to the rest of this - it seems appropriate, but not something you need my reply on. I just wanted to talk about demonstrations not including beginners. I've done some demos where we basically did a class in front of people, with whomever showed up from the school, including folks with only a few months of training. Unfortunately, it looks like crap compared to the fight scenes from the movies. Given my 'druthers, I'd always do demos by just holding a class (using a class plan designed to show what people can do), but I've heard audience members mock when a knife defense fails because the knife attack is....well, a knife attack, and those things are dangerous, if the person means to hurt you. Often, people watching a demo (or demo video) want to see how good the art can be, and measure it against the fantasy world.

Maybe that says more about the people watching the demonstration than the demonstration itself. Until people realise that real life self-defence is completely different to what you see in films, this sort of thing will always happen.

 

[drop bear]

i think his point was you can sell any old tripe as self defence and it might be years before they find out its tripe.

There has to be some sort of test of objective. It has to work somewhere other than a demo.

Otherwise people could just claim that all resonable testing in the gym, sparring, competing, going to other schools, even just non compliant training is not a representation of a real life self defence situation.

I mean then you would be stuck.

Maybe that says more about the people watching the demonstration than the demonstration itself. Until people realise that real life self-defence is completely different to what you see in films, this sort of thing will always happen.

Like this. This is a really bad aproach to self defence. And why people do BJJ.

I mean you go to a BJJ school and they dont convince you of the street at all. They just tie you in knots then and there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you have not used your

- side kick to knock down N different guys, you can not claim that you have developed your side kick.
- single leg to take down N different guys, you can not claim that you have developed your single leg.
- ...

Where N can be 7, 10, 20, ...

The question is where are you going to find these N different guys besides in the ring or on the mat?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe that says more about the people watching the demonstration than the demonstration itself. Until people realise that real life self-defence is completely different to what you see in films, this sort of thing will always happen.

Oh, it definitely does. Because of that, a "good" demonstration (in most cases, the purpose is to get people to take their first few classes) has to cater to the Bulletproof Monk mentality.

 

[Tez3]

They just tie you in knots then and there.

Not if they get dropped first which is what would happen in 'da street'. A BJJ class is dependent on people being willing to roll on the floor with others, no good if you are stand up fighting.

 

[hoshin1600]

You can always try Kerberos, they offer 8 hour courses

Now on a serious note, I have checked you profile, not sure it's up to date but I saw that you practice Tai Chi, White Crane and Wing Chun. Those are all systems that take years to develop any martial skill. What the hell are you doing with those then?

Every system from Krav Maga to traditional Tai Chi have the potential to teach you some form of fighting, but it both takes time to develop the skill to even use it. Ok one will give you the tools slightly sooner but it will still require practice.

You are now judging a complete system from a single seminar trailer......

Wow..cool. this is the first time I have been mentioned in a post here. Break out the champagne! Thank you.....even though you used me in a bit of tongue in cheek sarcasm.

My point was that you can not judge a system on a video like that. It does what it is supposed to do perfectly, impress the unwashed masses. But it doesn't answer the op question

 

[jobo]

There has to be some sort of test of objective. It has to work somewhere other than a demo.

Otherwise people could just claim that all resonable testing in the gym, sparring, competing, going to other schools, even just non compliant training is not a representation of a real life self defence situation.

I mean then you would be stuck.



Like this. This is a really bad aproach to self defence. And why people do BJJ.

I mean you go to a BJJ school and they dont convince you of the street at all. They just tie you in knots then and there.

that is in its self true, but also some what simplistic , a techneque may not work or not work very well against a skilled opponent, but be absolute dynamite against an enraged attacker against whom you have amongst other things the element of surprise, if they thought you capable of putting up a robust defence, they wouldn't be attacking you in the first place.
you can if you have,some experience of fighting ring or otherwise make an assessment of the mechanics of a techneque and if its likely to give benefit or not without actually testing it in a real situation.

then there is the issue that seldom gets discussed, which is fitness. I'm quietly confident that i can hold my own in an altercation against most people as my fitness is much better than average, with out any fancy skills, but then my fitness is good because i learn ma, any system that significantly improves your fitness immediately makes you better at defending yourself, , so its chicken and,egg

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What the hell do you know? You train for fitness and fun and with little selfdefense value...

You own words

Only advice I can give you, actually try to train with people like Fred Mastro and you will find out what works for you and what doesn't.......good luck

Why the venom?

 

[jobo]

What the hell do you know? You train for fitness and fun and with little selfdefense value...

You own words

Only advice I can give you, actually try to train with people like Fred Mastro and you will find out what works for you and what doesn't.......good luck

Imo betting a pound that Mastro isn't his real name

 

[jobo]

Why wouldn't it be?

because its to close to meastro, meaning master or teacher.

 

[jobo]

I think it's his real name.

its about as likely as having a postman called mr letterbox

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I'm tired of folks like him, never visited any seminars of Fred Mastro and judging by a video.

I attended a seminar of Fred Mastro and he is actually a pretty good self defense teacher.

The OP acts if he knows it all, then why doesn't he shows his skills to us? I mean his selfdefense skills

Hmm consider this, if I did know it all (or think I knew it all) why would I be asking for advice and opinions online about it? You really haven't thought this argument through properly have you? If you have been to this guy's seminars and say he's a good teacher, fantastic. I'm not here to criticise his teaching or his system. My main point in all of this is that it's easy to look good in a video demonstration such as this, but it doesn't really help people who know next to nothing about Martial Arts or Self-defence. As I said before, as a (relative) beginner to Martial Arts, the techniques in the video look more like the attacker is just falling over like they would in a movie. That was one of the reasons why I was asked my opinion on it in the first place, because to my friend (who has never studied a Martial Art) thought it looked completely fake.

It brings up an interesting point when it comes to marketing self-defence courses/systems. How can you make the system look good while still having the realism that a complete beginner can understand?

 

[drop bear]

that is in its self true, but also some what simplistic , a techneque may not work or not work very well against a skilled opponent, but be absolute dynamite against an enraged attacker against whom you have amongst other things the element of surprise, if they thought you capable of putting up a robust defence, they wouldn't be attacking you in the first place.
you can if you have,some experience of fighting ring or otherwise make an assessment of the mechanics of a techneque and if its likely to give benefit or not without actually testing it in a real situation.

then there is the issue that seldom gets discussed, which is fitness. I'm quietly confident that i can hold my own in an altercation against most people as my fitness is much better than average, with out any fancy skills, but then my fitness is good because i learn ma, any system that significantly improves your fitness immediately makes you better at defending yourself, , so its chicken and,egg

Yeas something may work against a chump that may not work against a trained fighter. But I still think you should base your training on what is real.

For example. Fitness works everywhere. If you are fit you will perform better in the gym. If you are not fit you may have to make up a story about how street fights don't last very long.

 

[Tez3]

because its to close to meastro, meaning master or teacher.

mastro - Wiktionary

 

[drop bear]

Not if they get dropped first which is what would happen in 'da street'. A BJJ class is dependent on people being willing to roll on the floor with others, no good if you are stand up fighting.

Which is of course another story that can justify a lack of realism. So yes you just got manhandled because you have no skills. But in the street the ground is lava. So it doesn't count.

 

[drop bear]

Hmm consider this, if I did know it all (or think I knew it all) why would I be asking for advice and opinions online about it? You really haven't thought this argument through properly have you? If you have been to this guy's seminars and say he's a good teacher, fantastic. I'm not here to criticise his teaching or his system. My main point in all of this is that it's easy to look good in a video demonstration such as this, but it doesn't really help people who know next to nothing about Martial Arts or Self-defence. As I said before, as a (relative) beginner to Martial Arts, the techniques in the video look more like the attacker is just falling over like they would in a movie. That was one of the reasons why I was asked my opinion on it in the first place, because to my friend (who has never studied a Martial Art) thought it looked completely fake.

It brings up an interesting point when it comes to marketing self-defence courses/systems. How can you make the system look good while still having the realism that a complete beginner can understand?

The guys i go to seminars with just fight everyone in the room.

 

[jobo]

mastro - Wiktionary

or the same in Portuguese

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How can you make the system look good while still having the realism that a complete beginner can understand?

All demo are 1/2 fake and 1/2 real.

- The 1/2 fake part is your opponent gives you that opportunity.
- The 1/2 real part is you have to finish it.

If your opponent also helps you to finish, that will be 100% fake. On the other hand, if your opponent never gives you that opportunity (such as running away from you), even if you are the best MA master on earth, you still can't demonstrate your skill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm tired of folks like him, never visited any seminars of Fred Mastro and judging by a video.

I attended a seminar of Fred Mastro and he is actually a pretty good self defense teacher.

The OP acts if he knows it all, then why doesn't he shows his skills to us? I mean his selfdefense skills

I don't see that attitude from him, at all. He asked for others' opinions in the OP - that's hardly being highly judgmental.