Another ATA 5 year old black belt

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by RonMarlow, Sep 26, 2011.

  1. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    The prewar shotokan was different than the postwar shotokan that we see today. Kukki taekwondo is more similar to pre WWII shotokan than shotokan today, in my opinion, as strange as that sounds.
     
  2. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Maybe it affects you, maybe not.
     
  3. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

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    The Kukkiwon technical standards are very similar to what Funakoshi Sensei was doing before the Shotokan was built. What the JKA and the Shotokai do today, is a variant of Funakoshi Sensei's pre WWII practice. The inclusion of the high stance throughout the first three Taegeuk Poomsae of Taekwondo is a return to the original standard, shaking off the variant technique as a standard. But some so-called traditionalist today are still practicing the variant, thinking it's the "traditional" standard, when it's not.
     
  4. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Why would you come back with a snide remark? I asked a simple question with courtesy, and explained why I asked the question with courtesy. Why not simply answer the question? Or if you don't have actual source material to support your statement/question, then simply say so...with courtesy.
     
  5. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I couldn't do 8 hours a day lol, I imagine it will have been something sensible.
     
  6. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    The irony is, all three of those are actually decent sources of Information. :)
    But yeah - If You dont have a source, You dont need one to debate a point. If You dont want to identify the source if it is a Person or somesuch, say as much.
     
  7. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    That doesn't sound strange at all, but the nature of the art is not what I was getting at. The art could be ballet or soccor. I was referring to people's lives in general.

    The lifestyle and outlook of a Japanese person fifty years ago is very different from that of an American person today. Not a good/bad, but just different. The lifestyle and outlook of an American person today is different than from fifty, or even thirty years ago too.

    When I took 'karate' as a kid, I had far fewer things to do than my own kids do. Most of my play time was physical or I read books or drew and painted. I spent a good hour a day practicing between classes because as a child, I was not athletic and not particularly coordinated, but I wanted to be. There was no X-box or Playstation. Not to mention that the amount of homework that came home for my kids far exceeded that of what came home when I was in elementary and junior high. High school was about the same.

    I also think that kids are much more coddled now than they used to be, mainly as a result of modern life having comparatively little physicality and prevailing attitudes toward discipline of children, particularly in the classroom. Throw in the prevailing attitude of 'everyone is a winner, so nobody should ever lose, so everyone gets a trophy,' and you have a very different make up of students.

    Not a criticism of modern kids or modern life, but it is a very different environment in which to teach martial arts. The ATA as it exists today, flourishes, but could not have existed in Japan in Funakoshi Sensei's day. Funakoshi Sensei could never have accomplished in the US today what he accomplished in Japan in his day.

    On the other hand, the guys who run the ATA are smart guys and would have found a way to flourish in Funakoshi Sensei's day, but their schools would have looked very different than they do now. Funakoshi Sensei was a smart guy and certainly would be able to accomplish much today in the US, but he would likely have to go about it differently.

    Different times, different challenges.
     
  8. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Here is one quotation from Mabuni Kenwa Sensei in his Karatedo Nyumon and is relevant to the side discussion we've had about what was taught in pre-WWII Shotokan. I believe Mabuni is referring to Shotokan karate above since he mentions Tokyo. Mabuni Sensei taught in Osaka.
     
  9. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    It wasn't a snide remark. It was courteous. I did simply answer the question. I do have actual source material for that information, which isn't the internet, google or wikipedia.
     
  10. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Then why not simply answer the question and list your source material? It is an interesting discussion thus far, additional source material for research would add to the knowledge base of those interested. Rather than going in circles about it, list your source material please. Or simply state that you have no intentions of offering support for your post. Thank you.
     
  11. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    What's the quote. I don't think it made into your post.
     
  12. dortiz

    dortiz Black Belt

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    The karate that has been introduced to Tokyo is actually just a part of the whole. The fact that those who have learnt karate there feel it only consists of kicks & punches, and that throws & locks are only to be found in judo or jujutsu, can only be put down to a lack of understanding … Those who are thinking of the future of karate should have an open mind and strive to study the complete art – Kenwa Mabuni 1938


    Here is one quotation from Mabuni Kenwa Sensei in his Karatedo Nyumon and is relevant to the side discussion we've had about what was taught in pre-WWII Shotokan. I believe Mabuni is referring to Shotokan karate above since he mentions Tokyo. Mabuni Sensei taught in Osaka.
     
  13. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Excellent post! Thank you for the quote :)
     
  14. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    My question is, Ignoring all the crap about there buisness practices and ways they try to soak money, is there teachings on par with TKD? Basicly what im saying is, if someone stays with them for say 10 years, and spends a gazillion dollars, and trains as hard as they can, is the techniques and basics and attacks and defenses teachings credible and on par with the other federations? From what im gathering its the buisness practices that are what give ATA there bad name, but im far more interested in there techniques and how they stack up. Punch for punch, kick for kick, block for block, throw for throw.

    I hear they made up forms that wernt in the original tkd? I thinking so what. If it teaches you something, like stringing together different moves and, how and when to move into which stance and so on and so forth. I dont see why it should matter if they came up with there own forms...

    So technique wise, ignoring all else, how does there MA measure up.
     
  15. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    i dont want to say all, but i have never met an ATA blackbelt that could fight
     
  16. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    That was in 1938. He later reversed his position and put all his energy into developing a competitive format for karate. In fact, he researched fighting full contact using equipment like chest protectors, head gear, gloves, shin protectors, a groin cup, all the things that taekwondo uses under the WTF rules. In fact, it was during a Japan Korea exchange with Dr. YON Kwai Byeong's old association that the first four hogu were brought back to Korea, and implemented into the KTA tournaments in the 1960s.

    Scroll down this page and see a photo of Mabuni Sensei wearing sparring equipment which looks remarkably like WTF approved sparring gear. Immediately below that you will see pictures of Mabuni Sensei demonstrating techniques primarily in a walking stance.

    http://www.shito-ryu.it/usri/Storia...to-ryu/The History of Shito-Ryu Karate-Do.htm
     
  17. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Can you provide your source material for where he stated he was reversing his position from the above quote? And, could you also provide your source material for your earlier quote regarding Shotokan?

    And exactly how would him wearing protective equipment detract from his factual statement that Karate contained locks and throws?
     
  18. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Mabuni Sensei was indeed a supporter of sparring activities. That said, I don't see how that is in conflict at all with his opinion that karate should be taught as a complete art with grappling and locks included.

    I would be interested in seeing a later quotation from him where he changes his mind about that.
     
  19. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    ATA uses the same training modalities virtually every other TKD group does: basics, forms, sparring, one steps, and self-defense. So in that sense, their material is as good as anyone else. I have a few quibbles about their hosinsul, but you could say the same about every group.

    I do actively dislike the forms but that is because I am believe the old kata contain specific fighting instructions within them that are viable even today. The Songahm hyung were drawn up to fit a specific floor embusen (their Songahm star) in contrast and IMO the strung together techniques do not combine well for real usage.
     
  20. MSUTKD

    MSUTKD Purple Belt

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    Actually Twin, I have met a couple of them. There are two, that I know of who have moved over from ATA to USAT and do very well on a national level. One that I know will compete at US Team Trials in April.

    I have always felt it is really the athlete, not the "group" that makes a difference.123
     

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