Another ATA 5 year old black belt

[puunui]

Shihap Kyorugi did not begin to develop in the late 1970's, it began in the 1940's and had a great acceleration in the 1960's, and progressed by leaps and bounds during each subsequent decade.

Right. Even back in the 1940s for example, sliding side kick (now known as Cut Kick) was being developed and used by GM UHM Woon Kyu at the Chung Do Kwan. He was nailing everyone with that, so much so that everyone copied him and the Side Kick became one of the Chung Do Kwan's signature techniques. Same thing with back kick and jumpin back kick, which was spin side kick and jump spin side kick back in the 1940s. GM Uhm was busy developing that as well. Today, one cannot be considered a complete competitor without a cut kick, back kick or jump back kick. It is in every competitor's bag of techniques.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How many days per week/hours per day? Thank you.

They walk into the dojang and are faced with two doors. One says "hapkido" while the other has a picture of Chuck Norris. The kwanjang looks intently at the student and says, "You have reached a fork in your road of life. You must choose hapkido or death."

If the student goes for the door with the picture of Chuck Norris, he has chosen death.

If the student goes through the door that says 'hapkido,' he is shown his pallet on the floor and told when mealtimes are. He wakes up at five in the morning and trains until seven, at which time breakfast is served. He then trains until noon when lunch is served. He trains until five in the evening when dinner is served. He then trains until eight, at which point all students then gather before the shrine and meditate on things hapkido. At nine, they go to bed. The cycle then repeats at five the next day. Only on Sunday are the students allowed to rest. This is because the kwanjang knows that the wait time at the golf course is shorter on Sunday. This goes on for a year, at which point the student is a hardened billet of Korean martial muscle. If he came to the dojang as a different nationality, he is Korean by the end of the year.

Either that...

Or probably two to four classes a week plus some practice in between. Likely not much different than here, given that Koreans go to school and have jobs and lives just as we do here.

 

[dancingalone]

Belts have no part in defining the relationship....

Thanks for the answer. I will try to reply later tonight. I have a few errands to run this afternoon along with classes to teach....

 

[puunui]

When I was in Europe with GM Dae Sung Lee of Hawaii he asked to follow me through Bassai-dai, he always liked that form and also wanted to teach it to his students. GM Lee was a very good fighter and he is also excellent at forms. He figured Bassai-dai out in a day, and the next day he was performing it amazing, like he has done it for 30 years.

People forget that GM Dae Sung Lee was also ten time national champion in poomsae at USTU Nationals. He can do it all.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Cool. Talk to you then!

 

[dancingalone]

I can understand at the colored belt levels or even at the dojang level, the belt system is a fairly accurate indicator of seniority. In general, the higher the belt, the longer the student has been studying.

Agreed.

The belt rank indicator tends to lose its accuracy outside of the dojang though. There are many out there who I outrank on paper but who I acknowledge and respect as my senior. In fact, I have helped and am trying to help my seniors who have not had opportunities to advance to get rank that is more appropriate to their place on the journey. mastercole does the same thing.

I also agree for the most part. The correlation of rank to experience and knowledge level is only as consistent as the people awarding the rank and the people practicing the martial art. For the most part, it works well within the extended family of schools run by students of my sensei like me. I see little variation in the quality of karate-ka produced by other first generation students of my teacher. I imagine the same consistency won't be possible 2-3 generations down the line.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

They walk into the dojang and are faced with two doors. One says "hapkido" while the other has a picture of Chuck Norris. The kwanjang looks intently at the student and says, "You have reached a fork in your road of life. You must choose hapkido or death."

If the student goes for the door with the picture of Chuck Norris, he has chosen death.

If the student goes through the door that says 'hapkido,' he is shown his pallet on the floor and told when mealtimes are. He wakes up at five in the morning and trains until seven, at which time breakfast is served. He then trains until noon when lunch is served. He trains until five in the evening when dinner is served. He then trains until eight, at which point all students then gather before the shrine and meditate on things hapkido. At nine, they go to bed. The cycle then repeats at five the next day. Only on Sunday are the students allowed to rest. This is because the kwanjang knows that the wait time at the golf course is shorter on Sunday. This goes on for a year, at which point the student is a hardened billet of Korean martial muscle. If he came to the dojang as a different nationality, he is Korean by the end of the year.

Either that...

Or probably two to four classes a week plus some practice in between. Likely not much different than here, given that Koreans go to school and have jobs and lives just as we do here.

Oddly enough, I remember reading an article in the JAMA about Muay Thai and it was very similar to what you've described....except the part about Chuck Norris :ultracool (that would be Ninja training. Not that the Ninjas grows up to be like Chuck Norris...they only grow up to be killed by Chuck Norris).

 

[puunui]

What they have related to me is this. Being awarded Dan, whether it be via hard work, good skill, dedication, contribution, allied support or a combination of those things, means that one is now accepted into Taekwondo as a member. What Dan level a person is awarded is generally based on to what degree a Dan holder has endeavored in these mentioned pursuits and highers levels of Dan are used to encourage the Dan holder into deeper, extended pursuit.

Exactly. With each higher dan received comes an unspoken instruction and/or encouragement to take it even higher, to do more, to be more, so you can continue to have your teacher look at you with the same approving, admiring eyes when they gave you the last promotion, proud that you are their student, that you are out there doing something for the betterment of the martial art that you study. Dan promotions are a license and edict to excel. Your measure your contributions in this way: Is taekwondo better because of your participation? Or do you do more harm than good?

 

[dancingalone]

I studied aikido for about a year, when I was a kid, five or six years old. I vaguely remember spending most of the class time rolling and falling. I think hapkido's curriculum is much more involved though than aikido's, with many more techniques than aikido. Hapkido certainly is not aikido with striking added. So I think that using aikido's thinking and methodology, it would probably take even longer to earn a hapkido 1st dan. But even with that, in korea, it takes one year to earn a hapkido 1st dan.

Well... I've compared techniques with people from GM JR West's group and the general number of variations of locks and holds is actually less than what I practice in Aikikai, up to 2nd dan at least. Not sure what happens after that - maybe they have a lot of stuff on the back end. Where they have more material 'officially' in the requirements is with the striking obviously and throws.

As for time to BB in hapkido - again the hapkido requirements I know about here requires substantially more time than 1 year, but that's OK. It's hard to compare without a line by line matrix of what is taught where along with what level of proficiency is required.

Thank you for the reply.

 

[puunui]

Well... I've compared techniques with people from GM JR West's group and the general number of variations of locks and holds is actually less than what I practice in Aikikai, up to 2nd dan at least. Not sure what happens after that - maybe they have a lot of stuff on the back end. Where they have more material 'officially' in the requirements is with the striking obviously and throws.

One of my hapkido seniors who used to teach parts of those seminars that GM West throws said that GM West's curriculum is somewhat abbreviated from say, the Daehan Hapkido curriculum. This is especially true in the kick department. I don't have any first hand experience myself with GM West's curriculum, but that is what was told to me. I do believe that GM West earned his Hapkido 1st Dan in Vietnam in about one year.

 

[mastercole]

Right. Even back in the 1940s for example, sliding side kick (now known as Cut Kick) was being developed and used by GM UHM Woon Kyu at the Chung Do Kwan. He was nailing everyone with that, so much so that everyone copied him and the Side Kick became one of the Chung Do Kwan's signature techniques. Same thing with back kick and jumpin back kick, which was spin side kick and jump spin side kick back in the 1940s. GM Uhm was busy developing that as well. Today, one cannot be considered a complete competitor without a cut kick, back kick or jump back kick. It is in every competitor's bag of techniques.

I heard that too, from other seniors. GM Uhm was a very driven man and had high expectations for everyone. Korean team members from the 70's and 80's told me that if you lost a game, GM Uhm was the last person you, or your coach wanted to see.

 

[puunui]

I heard that too, from other seniors. GM Uhm was a very driven man and had high expectations for everyone.

I sometimes wonder how taekwondo would be today without Dr. KIM Un Yong, GM LEE Chong Woo and GM UHM Woon Kyu leading the way.

 

[IcemanSK]

I sometimes wonder how taekwondo would be today without Dr. KIM Un Yong, GM LEE Chong Woo and GM UHM Woon Kyu leading the way.

I'd like to hear more of what you mean by this. How do you it would be different?

 

[puunui]

I'd like to hear more of what you mean by this. How do you it would be different?

If those three gentlemen were not involved, in my opinion, we wouldn't have taekwondo as we know it today. it would be something else. i have no idea what though.

 

[dancingalone]

One of my hapkido seniors who used to teach parts of those seminars that GM West throws said that GM West's curriculum is somewhat abbreviated from say, the Daehan Hapkido curriculum. This is especially true in the kick department. I don't have any first hand experience myself with GM West's curriculum, but that is what was told to me. I do believe that GM West earned his Hapkido 1st Dan in Vietnam in about one year.

There's a decent amount of judo embedded from what I have observed, seeing what the local guys practice first hand. I enjoyed working out with them and I think their stuff is solid.

 

[dancingalone]

First, sorry for the extended delay in response...

Belts have no part in defining the relationship. The belt indicates the general rank of another person. But it does not define the relationship, nor it it a key part of it. It may be a part of identifying who is senior to whom, though in a school that does not use stripes on the black belt, the belt can no longer be used reliably for this.

Identification of who is senior is not a relationship with the senior, which is why I say that belts have no part in defining the relationship. You and I have some kind of relationship: we are both taekwondoin who participate on this board. We have a relationship to Glenn and Master Cole. I have no idea whether or not you are senior to me, though given that you are a taekwondo school owner and I run a kendo school, even if our rank and time in grade is the same, I'd give you the nod. I suspect that we'd both acknowledge Glenn and Master Cole as senior to us. That relationship is defined by our communication with one another and our interractions. Belts are not a part of it.

Within singular dojang, it absolutely does. The yudanja line in the front do they not? On a practical level, this custom lets the juniors in the back observe the superior technique of their seniors, so they can emulate and learn from them. If you are addressing some deeper meaning of junior and senior such as formal mentorship, that is not what I referred to above in this thread. It's far too easy to poke holes once you start discussing things on that level obviously.

It seems that we are talking about different things. You seem to be talking about a relationship of proximity within the rank structure, in which case the belts serve as a means to determine who is where in that structure. I am talking about interpersonal relationships.

Yep.

Okay. What you say now is not what I responded to. If this is what you meant, then fine.

But this is what I responded to:

No inferrence: I responded to exactly what you typed. Also as before, I have bolded the part that I was responding to. I left the rest in because I did not want your quote hanging there without the rest of the context.

You said that competition is "very foreign" to the arts that you practice. That is a comment about the art itself. You then went on to describe things about your training and your experiences. The reason that I bolded the first sentence is that competition is not at all foreign to taekwondo as an art, KKW in particular, which you practice. Just because it was not a part of what you were taught or the curriculum that you have chosen to teach to your students does not make it foreign to the art. That is the distinction that I was making.

Sure. Hapkido, which I also practice, traditionally either has no competitive element or the competitive element is really a sidebar. But we're not on the hapkido or aikido board. If we were, we probably would not be having this discussion, as those arts utilize belts in a different manner and do not traditionally have a competitive element.

Well, to me it seemed as you seized on the first sentence in the paragraph without considering that the 4th sentence on (the parts specifically about TKD) was most relevant to the discussion if we want to talk about TKD. So to recap, you acknowledge that the contention you make about belts = primarily for competition bracketing is NOT germane at all to systems like aikido or hapkido. That is good although I do wish you'd acknowledged this point a lot sooner, glancing through several of my responses on this exact point. Also, it's not a big step from then to consider the same for tae kwon do.

But taekwondo does have a competitive element, and it is at the arts core, not a sidebar like it is in hapkido. Taekwondo would actually be called 'taekkyeon-do' had the Hanmoon characters existed for it. And taekkyeon is competitive.

With all due respect to taekkyon and those involved in its rebirth, I'd prefer to not converge the subject with this one.

As for TKD having a competitive element, that's is undoubtedly true. However, that does not inevitably lead to the conclusion that within TKD, belts are primarily for the convenience of holding tournaments or competitions.

I also freely acknowledge that there are taekwondo systems that do not have a competitive element. But these are definitely the minority. The fact that you teach a style that has the element but choose not to engage in it does not change that it has that element.

You're a smart fellow, Daniel. Can you re-read what I wrote above and tell me where I said that I teach a TKD that does NOT included competition? I SAID the style of TKD that I earned my black belts in previously did NOT regard competition bracketing as the primary purpose for using belts to begin with. I SAID we followed the colored belt meanings outlined by General Choi. I SAID my black belt meant I have learned a certain amount of requirements and had displayed both skill and toughness along the way.

This is a far cry from "fact that you teach a style that has the element but choose not to engage in it does not change that it has that element". Not sure how you could have jumped to that conclusion based on what I wrote. I even mentioned that I attended open tournaments within that same paragraph!

As the saying goes, something for everyone. You and your students have found something in KKW TKD that is for you. Which I think is great.

I think it would be great if you'd quit misreading/mis-inferring what you think I said. I like you, Daniel, but the above sentence comes across as quite patronizing, and yes, I know you didn't mean it that way. Nonetheless...

I said the KKW curriculum school I bought does not attend USAT or AAU tournaments but they still use the belt system. Accordingly there must be some other purpose for belts other than competition bracketing. This a far cry from implying if not saying outright that there is no competitive element within the school. We spar each other at the very least and there are surely other 'competitive' activities which are designed to stress the students.

The fact that you focus on pumse and that your taekwondo training did not involve competition does not change that competition is not foreign to taekwondo; you simply do not involve yourself.

Yeah, I am not sure how you conclude I focus on poomsae either based on what I wrote here. I said I am enjoying learning the KKW poomsae,not that I necessarily focus on them. I do think forms in general are very, very important, but that's always been based on a belief in form applications as a method of teaching practical fighting theories and usages, not as some pure aesthetic.

And *cough* read what I wrote again - I attended plenty of tournaments in my TKD days with and without my school mates. It's just that your contention connecting belts to competition falls way short within my old school, my current school, my niece and nephew's schools, and probably thousands and thousands of other schools out there.

Which is fine. I rather like the idea of an application based TKD curriculum with a strong 'do' element. Belts work very well in symbolism and in maintaining an orderly class.

I certainly acknowledge that. I also acknowledge that both competition bracketing and other meanings/usages can exist together in harmony. This is what I think is the case with the ATA. Which is the point that I tried to make with SPX.

And that would be a solid thing to say. Where you err in my opinion is when you want to speak for other people and argue that competition bracketing is the primary reason for the existence of belts.

The belts in the ATA do the following:
1. Gather the dobok.
2. Allow for competition bracketing within age/weight/gender divisions.
3. Provide a visual cue as to where in the curriculum the student is as a benefit to both students and instructors.
4. Provide an incentive, particularly to children and teens, who are most likely the bulk of ATA students.
5. Provide a teaching tool of Songahm philosophy through the various meanings attached to each color.

Go ask a Songham expert what order of possible usages in descending importance should be. I guarantee the competition bracketing, although the ATA obviously has an extensive tournament circuit, will be ranked as less important than other things.

Belts serve primarily in the capacities of 1, 2 & 3. All five year olds wearing a dobok need the belt to gather it just as much as all adults do. The black belt on a five year old means that he or she will not be whomping on yellow belt five year olds in competition. It also places the fice year old into the dan grade material in the class where he or she is training with others of their own age range.

Why does the meaning of the belt change merely because of age? If the belt system is arguably about something else other than competition, then the age factor is moot. The ideals promoted by the practice of TKD, Songahm or otherwise, remains whether the taekwondoin is small and young or elderly or infirm.

So unless are an adult who either competes against or trains in a class with five year olds, the idea that a five year old was awarded a black piece of cloth to go with his or her next rank shouldn't make a bit of difference.

As I said in the ATA (and other TKD systems too) certain meanings are attached to the belts. It has nothing to do with being a 5 year old, although I admittedly am not fond of awarding kids so young the rank. Why? Well back to the brown belt thing. "Has mastered the basics". Not saying there aren't rare exceptions since there are, but the kid in the video at the beginning of this thread clearly was nowhere near mastering his basics. Whatever - I'm not even talking about him at this point.

I would say that what he states is true and exists in harmony with the purpose of competition bracketing. I consider competition, while not comprising the bulk of the art, to be vital to the essence of the art. If you or others feel differently then that is fine; what is most important is that you are meeting your students' needs and that taekwondo as you practice it is a positive force in your life and the lives of your students.

Competition, however, does provide a vital (though not the only) way to confront the obtacles and challenges. Competition provides a unique set of obstacles and challenges, and not just on a physical level. I think it obvious that Angel Matos' primary failing was that he was unable to overcome the non-physical challenges of competition. Unfortunately, he failed this challenge at the Olympics with all the world watching.

When I express the idea of competition bracketing being the primary purpose for colors on belts, it is also with the assumption that taekwondo competition is about more than just winning or losing a bout. More than just scoring points. It is about winning as a person, regardless of the outcome of the bout. It is also about experiencing failures that you can now see and work to overcome, which makes you a better person.

If it is not the bulk of the art, then can it be the primary reason for the belt system? I say no. And really that is all I am saying. I dislike the pat argument that the belts came from judo and therefore this or that. Clearly the world has moved on from Kano Sensei's time. Like it or not, there is much import attached to the belts within and without TKD, within and without ATA, ITF, KKW, whatever. It may be one way in one particular style, but it is a mistake to try to generalize the same to another.

As for addressing the idea of black belts and their rigorous or lenient award... let's consider academic degrees or industry-specific certifications. Is it fair to say that the ones with longer requirements and greater rigor also have the highest levels of prestige and respect? That doesn't mean that a 1 year BB/poom awarded in one group isn't legitimate. Clearly it is by the group's internal measures and controls. Which would you rather have though? Which would be more respected by a complete non-martial artist? And does it matter at all in the end?

You know what they say about opinions, but I lean towards the rigor side. And in so doing, guess what? I'm as much as in the right as those who have opposite beliefs. No one can invoke the spirit of Kano Sensei, Funakoshi Sensei, etc. to justify their position since the world has moved on and there are attached modern beliefs and meanings, both eastern and western to the belt system at this point.

I hope I have not come across as overly contentious here. I am passionate about martial arts in general and I have some strong beliefs that I am not shy about expressing.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You're not at all contentious.

As for what I said about TKD having something for everyone: Not meant to be patronizing; kendo is competitive, but not everyone competes. There is something for everyone there as well. My point was that TKD is multifaceted enough that there really is something for everyone.

As for the length of time and rigor, yes, a first dan from a school that has higher standards and produces better students will be more respected than one with lower standards, though I don't necessarilly accociate length of time with higher standards.

I think each program needs to be looked at in its entirety and not judged based only on the length of time as some others on MT do (remarks along the lines of, two year BB = BS, anything less than three years = BS, and at three years you'd better be Chuck Norris, etc.). But yes, a program that turns out better students will be respected more than one that does not. Same as university degrees; all bachelors degrees are not considered equal, even if they are technically equal.

As far as the five year old in the video, what reason other than competition bracketing would you offer for his having a black belt? Given that you say that he hasn't become proficient in the basics.

 

[dancingalone]

As for the length of time and rigor, yes, a first dan from a school that has higher standards and produces better students will be more respected than one with lower standards, though I don't necessarilly accociate length of time with higher standards.

Length of time allows you to add mental and emotional maturity to the evaluative process. This can be relevant if the belt is about more than physical skills.

I think each program needs to be looked at in its entirety and not judged based only on the length of time as some others on MT do (remarks along the lines of, two year BB = BS, anything less than three years = BS, and at three years you'd better be Chuck Norris, etc.). But yes, a program that turns out better students will be respected more than one that does not. Same as university degrees; all bachelors degrees are not considered equal, even if they are technically equal.

I agree.

As far as the five year old in the video, what reason other than competition bracketing would you offer for his having a black belt? Given that you say that he hasn't become proficient in the basics.

If you are asking for my guess, I would say his instructors have used the belt progression path in his case as an attendance marker and personal motivator/reward system. By their own admission, his black belt means he has improved from a personal benchmark and they are not necessarily comparing him to his peers or to an overall performance guideline - a mistake in my opinion.

He is ATA, so there should have be certain signposts to guide his development. Some selected items follow...

Orange - student sees beginnings of TKD but has no power
Camo - student starts sparring
Green - is developing power
Brown - has mastered the basics
Red - Physical skill has been achieved and student is now working on physical and mental discipline
Black - the student has mastered the previous levels of development and they have all combined to produce black

 

[puunui]

There's a decent amount of judo embedded from what I have observed, seeing what the local guys practice first hand.

That might be Dr. He Young Kimm's influence. Judo was Dr. Kimm's first art, and I believe, first love. When he visited me, and I showed him my book rooms, he went straight for two bookcases, the one on judo and the one on hapkido, pretty much ignoring the rest.

I enjoyed working out with them and I think their stuff is solid.

That's good. You might want to attend one of those semi annual seminars in MS, if they still have them.

 

[TaekwonPRO]

The ATA is partially why having a blackbelt means nothing anymore.

Not that it should have in the first place. It's just a piece of cloth.