埋伏 Ambush

[Kung Fu Wang]

In CMA, there is a style that's called "埋伏 (Mai Fu) - Ambush". It emphasizes on "using a fake move to set up a real move". This principle is used in all categories such as kick, punch, lock, and throw.

1 kick - use round house kick to set up a side kick.
2. punch - use hook punch to set up a back fist.
3. lock - use shoulder lock to set up an elbow lock.
4. throw - use hip throw to set up an inner hook.
- ...

Let's share your opinion on this principle.

 

[LibbyW]

In CMA, there is a style that's called "埋伏 (Mai Fu) - Ambush". It emphasizes on "using a fake move to set up a real move". This principle is used in all categories such as kick, punch, lock, and throw.

1 kick - use round house kick to set up a side kick.
2. punch - use hook punch to set up a back fist.
3. lock - use shoulder lock to set up an elbow lock.
4. throw - use hip throw to set up an inner hook.
- ...

Let's share your opinion on this principle.

Sounds good to me
I've always been a fan of set ups, especially when they come off well.
L

 

[23rdwave]

Having this kind of preconceived attack does not allow one to respond to the opponent's movements. In the case of a hook punch to set up a back fist, what happens when the opponent blocks the hook? Will the mind respond fast enough if it's still thinking about a back fist.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Having this kind of preconceived attack does not allow one to respond to the opponent's movements. In the case of a hook punch to set up a back fist, what happens when the opponent blocks the hook? Will the mind respond fast enough if it's still thinking about a back fist.

When you throw a right hook punch (or hay-maker), your opponent can

- dodge under your hook punch (his arm and your arm does not make contact), you can then smash your right elbow side way at his face. If he use his left hand to block your elbow strike, you can use your left hand to remove his left hand, and change your right hook punch into a right back fist and hit on top of his head.
- block your right hook punch (his arm and your arm make contact), you can slide your right punching arm along his left blocking arm, and get him an under hook under his left shoulder.
- step back and remain distance, nothing has happened and it goes back to before you throw your hook punch.
- kick back at you, you can ...
- ...

Since when you throw your hook punch, you have already predict that your opponent will dodge, block, step back, kick back, or ..., you are always one step ahead your opponent's respond. That's the beauty to train combo (use a fake move to set up a real move). Of course, your fake move can also be a real move if your opponent fails to dodge it, block it, or ...

Your initial fake move (or real move if your opponent fails to respond it on time) is the root of a tree. Your tree starts to branch out depends on how your opponent may respond.

 

[23rdwave]

Too many options=too many thoughts. I am only interested in the result not how to get there. A good fight is one in which one's opponent is disabled with as little thought as to "how" or "why" he ended up that way. I'll think about it later. Maybe over a beer with our fallen hero.

 

[Danny T]

Too many options=too many thoughts. I am only interested in the result not how to get there. A good fight is one in which one's opponent is disabled with as little thought as to "how" or "why" he ended up that way. I'll think about it later. Maybe over a beer with our fallen hero.

So you do not practice any, just fight? What result are you interested in?
If your hero doesn't think about what is to be done or practice much he/she will be felled

 

[Argus]

So you do not practice any, just fight? What result are you interested in?
If your hero doesn't think about what is to be done or practice much he/she will be felled

Perhaps he was referring to a mindset whereby, in the moment, you're not thinking about what techniques to do, but rather just responding intuitively with what you've ingrained through training.

In WC, for example, I find I have better results when I simply focus on "chasing center," and not think about doing or setting up this or that technique. "This" or "that" might come about, but intuitively as a trained response rather than a conscious decision. After all, the latter is likely to be a step behind when put under pressure.

That was my initial impression 23rdwave's post, at any rate, but I may be mistaken. Perhaps he can clear it up for us.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I am only interested in the result not how to get there.

How to get there - take a girl out for movie, have a nice dinner, walk on the beach, watch the sunset, hold her hand, kiss her, ...
result - marry to that girl.

You just can't marry to a girl without going through the "dating process".

How to get there = entering strategy
result = finish strategy

You have to enter safely before you can finish your opponent. It's better to lead your opponent into an area that you are more familiar with than he does than to let your opponent to lead you into an area that he is more familiar than you. For example, if your opponent is a

- striker, you don't want to box with him for 15 rounds, you want to take him down ASAP.
- grappler, you don't want to wrestle with him for 15 rounds, you want to knock him down ASAP.

If you can

- force your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm, he won't be able to punch you.
- jam you leg into your opponent's leading leg, he won't be able to kick you.

Both are part of your "entering strategy - set up".

Here is an example that one uses

- round house kick to set up side kick,
- side kick to set up double under hooks,
- double under hooks to set up knee strike,
- knee strike to set up outer hook take down.

Within 15 seconds, he used this combo twice in a roll. It proves that he had this combo as his "plan" and not just random techniques.

 

[Tez3]

How to get there - take a girl out for movie, have a nice dinner, walk on the beach, watch the sunset, hold her hand, kiss her, ...
result - marry to that girl.

You just can't marry to a girl without going through the "dating process".

To be honest, I find that objectionable. A girl isn't a commodity, someone you can take a certain numbers of 'steps' then marry her. Your analogy is inappropriate and reduces girls to what sounds like unthinking lower life forms. If that's how you think you find your soul mate then I'm sorry for you. I'm not sure you martial arts sounds any sounder.

 

[Danny T]

Too many options=too many thoughts. I am only interested in the result not how to get there. A good fight is one in which one's opponent is disabled with as little thought as to "how" or "why" he ended up that way. I'll think about it later. Maybe over a beer with our fallen hero.

Perhaps he was referring to a mindset whereby, in the moment, you're not thinking about what techniques to do, but rather just responding intuitively with what you've ingrained through training.

In WC, for example, I find I have better results when I simply focus on "chasing center," and not think about doing or setting up this or that technique. "This" or "that" might come about, but intuitively as a trained response rather than a conscious decision. After all, the latter is likely to be a step behind when put under pressure.

That was my initial impression 23rdwave's post, at any rate, but I may be mistaken. Perhaps he can clear it up for us.

How does one get to that point of simply doing? By going through all of the options, thought processes, by working the options to being able to be in the moment. Also there is absolutely one's ability of thinking and setting up the opponent/s. "Smart fighters" called that because of how intelligently they fight. That is because they think, adjust, and when possible will set up the opponent.
Often in our wc we, through proper position, control, and timing, set a trap and allow the opponents to trap themselves.

 

[23rdwave]

I don't want to have any intent. It's like basketball. If one practices a crossover dribble 10,000 times and then says to oneself, "I'm going break this dude's ankles on this play," what happens when the defender doesn't bite on the first move? Now one has to rethink the movement instead of blowing by the defender and getting an easy look at the basket. If one has practiced the moves enough they become instinctive and do not need to be planned. Just play the game.

 

[Argus]

How does one get to that point of simply doing? By going through all of the options, thought processes, by working the options to being able to be in the moment.

Absolutely. And that definitely requires forethought and structured practice. This is the only real problem that I have with 23rdwave's comment, though -- as he stated "I am only interested in the result not how to get there," which seems absurd if you intend to actually train in any kind of productive manner. But I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt that perhaps he wasn't referring to the method to train/get there.

Also there is absolutely one's ability of thinking and setting up the opponent/s. "Smart fighters" called that because of how intelligently they fight. That is because they think, adjust, and when possible will set up the opponent.
Often in our wc we, through proper position, control, and timing, set a trap and allow the opponents to trap themselves.

Again, I don't disagree. But I do think that people can have too many preconceptions about what they or their opponent will do. And, I've come across a few individuals that seemed to be really fond of combinations that they seemed to want to pull out of their pocket, as if trying to get away with some "trick" and without any regard to what the other person happens to be doing. Basically, trying to make a technique or string of techniques work regardless of whether it's suited to the moment.

As with anything, I wholly agree that it's never black and white; there's a time, place, and context for everything. Which is what I think you were arguing to begin with!

 

[Argus]

How to get there - take a girl out for movie, have a nice dinner, walk on the beach, watch the sunset, hold her hand, kiss her, ...
result - marry to that girl.

You just can't marry to a girl without going through the "dating process".

The problem with such a plan is that, while a logical series of actions, the chances of them succeeding in that order, per your timing, and without the need to heavily adapt to her actions / reactions is basically nil. Any particular girl might require a lot more, or a lot less than what you listed, in varying order, or timing, and with different prerequisites. In fact, you might try the same set of actions with a particular girl and fail once, but, if you had the ability to rewind time and try again, succeed the next. Not because of what you did, but because of how, why, or when you did it; in short, the context and intent behind an action can be more important than the action itself, and can ensure that the (correct) action is being taken at the right time, and in the right way.

You can't be so sure that this will lead to that will lead to that and give you that. Of course, it's good to be proactive in the sense that you have some idea where you're going and what the next best course of action is likely to be, but you have to be constantly listening, sensing, and adapting; going not just where you want to go when you want to go, but accommodating the other person and working with their actions and intent.

 

[23rdwave]

Absolutely. And that definitely requires forethought and structured practice. This is the only real problem that I have with 23rdwave's comment, though -- as he stated "I am only interested in the result not how to get there," which seems absurd if you intend to actually train in any kind of productive manner. But I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt that perhaps he wasn't referring to the method to train/get there.

It's the training that allows for one to be in the moment and respond to the opponent's movements rather than following a script. Fighting is not Shakespeare it's improv. Think Monty Python not the RSC.

 

[Argus]

It's the training that allows for one to be in the moment and respond to the opponent's movements rather than following a script. Fighting is Shakespeare it's improv. Think Monty Python not the RSC.

I was recognizing and agreeing with that point... Glad to see you were as well!

In essence, it's not about writing a script that one expects to follow to get the end result, but rather exploring the actions one might take in the moment and where they might be likely to lead you or your opponent.

 

[23rdwave]

I was recognizing and agreeing with that point... Glad to see you were as well!

And I agree with your reply to Danny T.

 

[Jenna]

It's the training that allows for one to be in the moment and respond to the opponent's movements rather than following a script. Fighting is not Shakespeare it's improv. Think Monty Python not the RSC.

was Monty python improvised?? Jx

 

[23rdwave]

In the USA we have Second City and the Groundlings which are improv groups but I thought they may be unfamiliar to a wider audience since they work in the theater not television. Although much of MP is scripted they are a comedy troupe and can improvise when the mood strikes. The Royal Shakespeare Company always work from a script.

 

[Tez3]

In the USA we have Second City and the Groundlings which are improv groups but I thought theyBTW. y be unfamiliar to a wider audience since they work in the theater not television. Although much of MP is scripted they are a comedy troupe and can improvise when the mood strikes. The Royal Shakespeare Company always work from a script.

I'm not that sure you know who Monty Python were if you think they are a 'comedy troupe'. The RSA have been known to put improvised works on btw

 

[Tez3]

The television programmes were called Monty Python's Flying Circus and were scripted as well as directed by the cast who are writers and actors. They went on to make films but all have their own careers as well. They aren't a 'troupe' at all, they have all apart from Graham Chapman who sadly died, been in serious mainstream plays, films and television dramas, a couple have directed films, all write serious literature, one writes music, another makes travel films.