am i over looking judo for real self defence?

[drop bear]

We were not comparing anything. Maybe you should read the thread?

elder999 said: ↑


"Anthony Pettis is 3rd Dan in tae kwon do. Hardly a grandmaster, but still-it must have cost him a good $10000 to get there.

not really a massive leap from this to comparing the cost of different endeavours.

 

[drop bear]

I've grappled a wrestler from a freestyle or Greco Roman background. He was around my weight class and actively training. He couldn't put me on my back. We were around 17-18 years old. I havent' tried it as an adult

Then theres wrestling on the ground, as well as submission wrestling of which I have no clue how I would do. I don't know anything about submissions. That's why I specifically said as long it's standing.

yeah see i believe skills in wrestling are not really the same skills you see in striking. If we remove basic athleticism and focus on technical training.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Can you provide a reference for any TKD system that uses the title "Grandmaster" for a 4th Dan? I've been around a while... and although I certainly am not intimately familiar with the traditions in every system of TKD (let alone every MA system...) I am unaware of any system of any sort that titles a 4th Dan as "Grandmaster".

Someone who is of grandmaster streight and tries a grappler. 4th dan is of course "only" instructor level. The problem as mentioned is that a technical grandmaster would be too old.

Fact is almost no noteworthy TKD guy have ever fought grapplers.

 

[Laplace_demon]

yeah see i believe skills in wrestling are not really the same skills you see in striking..

It is related. Ask any "authority" on the subject and they would tell you it is. Might sound paradoxical at first, but it isn't.

 

[drop bear]

It is related. Ask any "authority" on the subject and they would tell you it is. Might sound paradoxical at first, but it isn't.

i have been taught by rob gruifrida who is one of the best submission fighters in Australia. He recently was training with Derek heckle who is one of the best wrestlers in the world.

the techniques that make you good at striking. Hands high,chin down,light feet. Make you crap at grappling. Hands low,head up,low stance.

this is why i strike and grapple. Because they cant defend both at once. I punch a guy in the head, the hands go up and they are open for the double leg. I double leg, the hands go down, I have an opportunity to strike.

 

[Laplace_demon]

i have been taught by rob gruifrida who is one of the best submission fighters in Australia. He recently was training with Derek heckle who is one of the best wrestlers in the world.

the techniques that make you good at striking. Hands high,chin down,light feet. Make you crap at grappling. Hands low,head up,low stance.

this is why i strike and grapple. Because they cant defend both at once. I punch a guy in the head, the hands go up and they are open for the double leg. I double leg, the hands go down, I have an opportunity to strike.

Most competitors in MMA transition from either one smothlessly. Daniel Cormier as an example is a terrific striker. Anthony Pettis is a proficient grappler. In fact, some might argue he's better at BJJ than TKD.

 

[drop bear]

Most competitors in MMA transition from either one smothlessly. Daniel Cormier as an example is a terrific striker. Anthony Pettis is a proficient grappler. In fact, some might argue he's better at BJJ than TKD.

you switch quickly from one to the other rather than do both at once. Hence transition.

 

[Tez3]

Fact is almost no noteworthy TKD guy have ever fought grapplers.

The days are long gone where it was style v style, it's MMA now, where it's an integrated system with techniques taken from different styles. I know a good many people who have trained TKD as their stand up and have competed well in MMA.

 

[ballen0351]

If you start training at age 5 or 10 it's not impossible in your mid 20s to have at least 4th Dan. Even if I were to grant your premise, it's still very few that have ever tried it. BJJ masters however have and the rules are adapted to their art (one of the gracies initiated the UFC). That's why everybody needs BJJ, because it's not no holds barred, and the rules in place favour the wrestlers.

I'll defer to people that actually train in TKD which isn't me but I dont consider 4th dan as a grandmaster.
I don't agree that everyone needs bjj but if that were true why do you feel you don't need any grappling training?

 

[ballen0351]

Because wrestling/grappling is closely related to striking abilities. If your exceptional at one you will also excel in the other, at least standing.

I am quite good at grappling standing and have had no training. I am a very fast striker.

What do you train in?

 

[Laplace_demon]

I'll defer to people that actually train in TKD which isn't me but I dont consider 4th dan as a grandmaster.

5th Dan in Taekwon-Do is more appropriate. You are graded by chief instructors and simply have to perform to their standards. There are 5th dans in their late 20s, early 30s. Nobody is even close to that level in the fights seen. The grapplers however are the Gracie family and other all time greats. It would be like comparing Mike Tyson to a mere black belt in Karate, and showing how boxing prevails. It doesn't indicate anything.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Someone who is of grandmaster streight and tries a grappler. 4th dan is of course "only" instructor level. The problem as mentioned is that a technical grandmaster would be too old.

Backpedal much faster? Why not just admit your statement was wrong? it would save time...

Fact is almost no noteworthy TKD guy have ever fought grapplers.

Simply not true, as has been shown time and time again.

 

[Reeksta]

A striker with no training in grappling, could still grapple standing and hold his own. It's on the ground the problem starts.

I'm sorry but this just isn't true. The single anecdote from your late teens that you present as evidence doesn't stack up. Judo/wrestling are incredibly technical arts and if you try engaging in vertical grappling against anyone who's reached a decent level in either when you haven't you'll be going for a ride

 

[ballen0351]

5th Dan in Taekwon-Do is more appropriate. You are graded by chief instructors and simply have to perform to their standards. There are 5th dans in their late 20s, early 30s. Nobody is even close to that level in the fights seen. The grapplers however are the Gracie family and other all time greats. It would be like comparing Mike Tyson to a mere black belt in Karate, and showing how boxing prevails. It doesn't indicate anything.

So is your point that guys that casually train a few hours a week don't compare in skill to trained fighters that earn their living in the ring? Well that's kind of a no brainer. These pro fighters treat training like a full time job so of course they are going to be better then guys that train as a hobby. Go to local nonprofessional fights I've seen pure TKD or Karate or BJJ guys on the ring. It comes down to the individual not the style.

 

[Dirty Dog]

5th Dan in Taekwon-Do is more appropriate. You are graded by chief instructors and simply have to perform to their standards. There are 5th dans in their late 20s, early 30s. Nobody is even close to that level in the fights seen. The grapplers however are the Gracie family and other all time greats. It would be like comparing Mike Tyson to a mere black belt in Karate, and showing how boxing prevails. It doesn't indicate anything.

5th Dan is not a Grandmaster in any system of TKD with which I am familiar. I can gaurantee it's not in the Moo Duk Kwan, KKW, ITF, Rhee TKD, ATA or any other major system.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not to mention the age factor. Unless there are some 24 year old grand masters running around the cage stuff is a young man's game

No... that can't be it... I remember seeing Mr Miagi beat up a whole buch of much younger men all at the same time...

 

[Laplace_demon]

5th Dan is not a Grandmaster in any system of TKD with which I am familiar. I can gaurantee it's not in the Moo Duk Kwan, KKW, ITF, Rhee TKD, ATA or any other major system.

Which part of grandmaster streight wise don't you understand? Are you intentionally not trying to understand?

 

[elder999]

No... that can't be it... I remember seeing Mr Miagi beat up a whole buch of much younger men all at the same time...

Hey, I met this nutjob a few years back :

The 70-year-old from New Brunswick, Canada became the oldest person to ever compete in a professional MMA bout when he took on 49-year-old former pro wrestler Larry Brubaker on July 24 in Moncton. On paper it sounds like a carnival act, but the fight was serious business, Williams said, done to prove a serious point.
"I was trying to bring attention to the fact that when a person becomes a senior, society kind of pushes them out of the loop. The attitude toward them is that they're dumb, they can't do anything, physically they're just vegetables, and they're sort of shunned by society," Williams told MMA Fighting. "I wanted to find a way to show that life isn't over at 55 or 60 years old. You're not useless or obsolete. We live in a use-oriented society, and you get told that enough that even you start to believe you're useless."

Of course, he's a judoka-and certifiably insane. ......... .......funny, I reckon when I met him back in 1990, he was younger than I am now....

 

[Laplace_demon]

So is your point that guys that casually train a few hours a week don't compare in skill to trained fighters that earn their living in the ring? Well that's kind of a no brainer. .

No, I am saying the skill level between competitors is not fair. There are no exceptional TKD guys that have ever fought grapplers. If there are they are in a minority and would not be representative.

 

[Tez3]

No, I am saying the skill level between competitors is not fair. There are no exceptional TKD guys that have ever fought grapplers. If there are they are in a minority and would not be representative.

You don't understand MMA do you?