‘aliveness’ in martial arts training

[MardiGras Bandit]

Listen, as a former Navy SEAL who has killed at least 50 people (at least seven with deadly hand to hand tactics to powerful for you to legally use) I am in the preminent position here to judge the fighting arts and how they should be trained. The only sport I play is with human lives, in fact I probably saved yours several times while stopping deadly terrorist attacks you don't even know about, all the while taking part in secret undeground fighting tournaments where anything goes (including weapons and death blows, both of which I regularly use). I graduated from college with highest honors. Which school? The school of hard knocks. As a former streetgang member I have taken part in 100's of no holds barred (the real kind, on the street) fights and between all my experiences I have learned the deadly secrets of combat.

Sound like a weak argument? That's because it is. Forgive me if I'm skeptical of people who make similar (though slightly less outlandish) claims and site them as evidence, but I have to call it like it is. Cool stories and homegrown wisdom have their place, but don't compare to hard evidence. As it is, all the evidence points to the fact that resistance training is far and away the best method to learn how to fight.

Yes, I get the fact that you think sparring has some value, and I agree that learning situational awareness has a place in self defense. What we seem to disagree on is the order of importance. Situational awarness alone may help you realize a fight is coming, and may even help you to avoid it, but by itself will not help you in the worst case scenario of being attacked. Conversely, resistance training alone does not teach you to avoid a conflict (I personally assume that most people have enough ingrained comon sense to do this on their own) but will give you the tools to best defend yourself if such a conflict occurs.

Secondly, I doubt the abiltiy to teach situational awarness above a most basic levels. I have some limited experience with it and was not impressed, nor have I ever been impressed by what I have seen or heard about elsewhere. If it is to be taught, I can only see it being taught based off of hard facts, not subjective personal opinion. On the other hand, I've never met anyone who couldn't greatly benefit from resistance training. Anyone can do it to some degree or the other and it is the most useful and effective way to teach people to fight. In the end that is what martial arts are all about.

 

[FuriousGeorge]

But thats what your not getting, the pyschology issue. Like I said there are rules to "the street." And those rules can be replicated if you know the reality of what your talking about. The type of confrontation changes all those variables.

Lets look at a realistic mugging senario:
Victem walks to car, and an bumb askes for some change. When guy reaches in pocket the bumb stabs him in the gut and steals his wallet running away.

Worth case senario, right?

Nope, more like senario that happens on a regular basis. That has nothing to do with the confritation, but it does have to deal with pyschology and phylosophy. Now I've read the article and heard allot of stuff I didn't agree with. But so far all i've from everyone here but you on the other side of the arguement is "sparring prepares you for the real world" or "Kata is useless because."

I never heard anything in the article about the phycology or mental aspects of training, just a resisting partner. And some constantly heard comment about the UFC disproving things he doesn't like. Sorry if none of it impresses me. But, I'm survived some pretty bad stuff in my life some cop out on a resisting opponent means the sme old talk. That same arguement was how free style karate got started...

Want to impress go into pychological training as an aspect of alive. That was never covered just the same non-sense about how sports relates to the real world. Like I've said before just cause you play baseball doesn't mean your a stick fighter...

Hey bro...I can understand your point and as I've already said I think Matt is shortsighted in his views...I am thoroughly unimpressed by what the UFC has supposedly shown as well...but I think we're ultimately saying the same thing. Let me try and explain.

you say there are rules on the street...well thats what i'm talking about when I'm talking about the set of variables associated with a given situation...aliveness is training by replicating these rules in the dojo in an unscripted manner thereby forcing the practitioner to think on his or her feet. The wiffle bat thing is an example of how you accomplish this goal. And since awareness is so important in a scenario like the mugging example you just gave, the wiffle bat thing, i imagine does a lot to prepare your students for a real live attack. That IS alive training.

Now as far as Matt is concerned, and he talks about this all the time...his main objection is to training dead patterns without addressing the spontaneous nature of any kind of fight/attack scenario...namely the repition of kata or forms in traditional martial arts without any added sparring or randori or live, spontaneous replication of a particular scenario.

Do you see?...you seem to be all about replicating a scenario to prepare for the unexpected, so I don't really see how what we're saying differs. But if i'm still missing something, i'm all ears.

 

[Dark]

Sound like a weak argument? That's because it is. Forgive me if I'm skeptical of people who make similar (though slightly less outlandish) claims and site them as evidence, but I have to call it like it is. Cool stories and homegrown wisdom have their place, but don't compare to hard evidence. As it is, all the evidence points to the fact that resistance training is far and away the best method to learn how to fight.

Common sense is not being discussed. You want to go through every senario but ignore my points.
1) Resistance doesn't mean anything, out of context. The difference between sparring and sparring towards a point seems to be a completely different sistaution that isn't discussed the same way...
2) There is a difference between self-defense, street fighting and martial arts. And I have explained these.
3) My point is that all this talk about sparring is good is correct, but it isn't gonna have an effect in the real world. There is a pychological effect and a stress level that you wont find, no matter who your resisting opponent is. There for a resistaning opponent doesn't prepare you for the mental strain of a real world situation.
4) As far as background and sources go here(I went and sourced up other experts in this field):
http://www.urbancombatives.com/martialcombatives.htm
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/streetrat.html
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/self-defensetraining.htm
http://www.burrese.com/Personal_Security_&_Self_Defense/Articles/Fights_vs_Combat.htm
http://www.burrese.com/Personal_Security_&_Self_Defense/Articles/Articles_by_Others/street_people.htm
http://www.burrese.com/Personal_Security_&_Self_Defense/Articles/Articles_by_Others/criminal_mind_by_peyton_quinn.htm
http://www.burrese.com/Personal_Security_&_Self_Defense/Articles/There's_no_such_thing_as_a_superior_martial_art.htm
A few of those above links get into that psychology effect I've been talking about.
5) My main issue was senseless statements, in your case that sparring prepares you for the real world. I can asume you've been in a real fight because you have avoided my questions in that regard. Because simply put, screaming the same arguement doesn't prove anything it just lets me explore ways of shooting down the same arguement, kinda like those non-resisting drills. The problem is if I go around assuming things, I'm make the wrong assumption and get serious proven wrong.

Secondly, I doubt the abiltiy to teach situational awarness above a most basic levels. I have some limited experience with it and was not impressed, nor have I ever been impressed by what I have seen or heard about elsewhere. If it is to be taught, I can only see it being taught based off of hard facts, not subjective personal opinion. On the other hand, I've never met anyone who couldn't greatly benefit from resistance training. Anyone can do it to some degree or the other and it is the most useful and effective way to teach people to fight. In the end that is what martial arts are all about.

1) You've never been in a real world situation. I'll asume this because you keep avoiding my topic on that very subject. What you want to know doesn't have a set statistic, statistics don't mean anything.
2) I'm actually objective, all oppinions are flawed because are limited to the insight and intellect of those popsing them. You're looking for the next "ultimate martial arts ideology." Sparring isn't the real world and if you are drilling awareness, psychology and applied stress levels. You claiming a resisting partner trains you for a street fight, is a lack of realistic objectivity.
3) What hard fights? Someone else's input and personal experience counts are hard facts. I want a hard fact that people who spar are more likely to survive on the street. Oh yeah, if you wonna cross examine police records for the survivers of violent crimes who are martial artists and see which one's sparred. Everyone spars, there are different names for it and unless you intentionally try to be so inept that, the aliveness stuff is just a marketing scam.

 

[Kreth]

I'm guessing that MardiGras Bandit is wondering exactly what your background is, Dark.

 

[Dark]

I'm guessing that MardiGras Bandit is wondering exactly what your background is, Dark.

Then ask? 4 years army infantry and another year of MP in the reserves, but I'm switching to national guard and will a Cav Scout. Childhood, drunken father and a mentally abusive mother. Grew up in a family where fighting was basically required, went to a high school that was pretty bad and spent allot of time making mistakes. Seen Iraq once so far not expected to return until 2008.

That work..?

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Then ask? 4 years army infantry and another year of MP in the reserves, but I'm switching to national guard and will a Cav Scout. Childhood, drunken father and a mentally abusive mother. Grew up in a family where fighting was basically required, went to a high school that was pretty bad and spent allot of time making mistakes. Seen Iraq once so far not expected to return until 2008.

That work..?

All that and you decided to become a Ninja?

 

[Kreth]

Then ask? 4 years army infantry and another year of MP in the reserves, but I'm switching to national guard and will a Cav Scout. Childhood, drunken father and a mentally abusive mother. Grew up in a family where fighting was basically required, went to a high school that was pretty bad and spent allot of time making mistakes. Seen Iraq once so far not expected to return until 2008.

That work..?

Given the topic of the thread, and your proliferation of advice, I think your martial arts background would be more appropriate.

 

[Dark]

All that and you decided to become a Ninja?

i studied ninjutsu but I prefer to karate, judo and jujitsu do to all the contiversy.

 

[Dark]

Given the topic of the thread, and your proliferation of advice, I think your martial arts background would be more appropriate.

Martial arts ends at what you are taught I think were and how I have used then is more important then where and what I learned in a dojo. I also point out to my military background were I have used what I'm talking about.

 

[Rook]

Listen, as a former Navy SEAL who has killed at least 50 people (at least seven with deadly hand to hand tactics to powerful for you to legally use) I am in the preminent position here to judge the fighting arts and how they should be trained. The only sport I play is with human lives, in fact I probably saved yours several times while stopping deadly terrorist attacks you don't even know about, all the while taking part in secret undeground fighting tournaments where anything goes (including weapons and death blows, both of which I regularly use). I graduated from college with highest honors. Which school? The school of hard knocks. As a former streetgang member I have taken part in 100's of no holds barred (the real kind, on the street) fights and between all my experiences I have learned the deadly secrets of combat.

Sound like a weak argument? That's because it is. Forgive me if I'm skeptical of people who make similar (though slightly less outlandish) claims and site them as evidence, but I have to call it like it is. Cool stories and homegrown wisdom have their place, but don't compare to hard evidence. As it is, all the evidence points to the fact that resistance training is far and away the best method to learn how to fight.

Yes, I get the fact that you think sparring has some value, and I agree that learning situational awareness has a place in self defense. What we seem to disagree on is the order of importance. Situational awarness alone may help you realize a fight is coming, and may even help you to avoid it, but by itself will not help you in the worst case scenario of being attacked. Conversely, resistance training alone does not teach you to avoid a conflict (I personally assume that most people have enough ingrained comon sense to do this on their own) but will give you the tools to best defend yourself if such a conflict occurs.

Secondly, I doubt the abiltiy to teach situational awarness above a most basic levels. I have some limited experience with it and was not impressed, nor have I ever been impressed by what I have seen or heard about elsewhere. If it is to be taught, I can only see it being taught based off of hard facts, not subjective personal opinion. On the other hand, I've never met anyone who couldn't greatly benefit from resistance training. Anyone can do it to some degree or the other and it is the most useful and effective way to teach people to fight. In the end that is what martial arts are all about.

Come again? Navy SEALs?

Would you mind telling us what BUDs class you were in, on what base, and on what dates? Who was your class honor graduate? What was your diving partner's name?

Which team were you in post-training?

 

[Rook]

I have to ask how do you define a streetfight? And how many have you been in? Not to sound like wonnabe, but if you don't know, you don't know...

Any fight outside controlled envirnments where at least one party want to seriously harm another through violence should count as a streetfight, although ussually we mean fights literally occuring on the streets, sidewalks, parks etc. as opposed to home invasions and such.

Or you do the smart thing and learn to look for the warning signs and run far and fast

Obviously, if you have an opportunity to escape, take it. If you have an opportunity to avoid the confrontation, then do so. The premise of actual training is that a fight has been initiated and escape is not immediately possible.

Or the all ebcombasing 5th element, you cheat and win by pulling a gun.

Not really, that still falls under 1 or 3 depending on how it is done. You can pull a gun at short range and fire immediately, or, more likely, draw back from the initial contact, assume some semblance of a firing posture (likely an imperfect rushed one) and take your shot. You're still within the same exercise, you're just adding a weapon.

See there is more to the street then what your enemy can do and how your live sparring/martial art skills teach you timing and blah, blah...

Okay....

It's called the willingness and desire to survive.

1. This can't really be taught.
2. There is a reason the people who lose streetfights often are the parties with more to lose, even though they should have more will to survive. That doesn't fully make up for other deficiencies.

You were so focused on proving you systems ability, that you forget the first rule of survive, prepae for the worst.

Everyone is trying to survive, regardless of system. Where are you going with this?

No there the you stand here while I hit 12 times stuff... lol

If you aren't doing this sort of stuff, then you're ahead of most of the "RBSD" community.

Your absolutely right, lets teach a bunch of 12 year olds to break each others arm and say "Here try this out."

Maybe you should start with striking or throwing based sparring before joint attacks, which tend to require more finesse on both sides to both execute and avoid injury.

Those static drills are only baby steps, ways of working up to the art form.

Ok.

Lets call it life, nothing can prepare you for life but you can be given guidelines.

Ok.

Then you are not looking in the right places...

No, you're taking various flim-flam peddlars at their word.

 

[Henderson]

Listen, as a former Navy SEAL who has killed at least 50 people (at least seven with deadly hand to hand tactics to powerful for you to legally use) I am in the preminent position here to judge the fighting arts and how they should be trained. The only sport I play is with human lives, in fact I probably saved yours several times while stopping deadly terrorist attacks you don't even know about, all the while taking part in secret undeground fighting tournaments where anything goes (including weapons and death blows, both of which I regularly use). I graduated from college with highest honors. Which school? The school of hard knocks. As a former streetgang member I have taken part in 100's of no holds barred (the real kind, on the street) fights and between all my experiences I have learned the deadly secrets of combat.

:lfao:

Come again? Navy SEALs?

Would you mind telling us what BUDs class you were in, on what base, and on what dates? Who was your class honor graduate? What was your diving partner's name?

Which team were you in post-training?

Hey Rook....I think this was MardiGras' way of being sarcastic about some of the outlandish and obviously :bs1: claims some people make. At least I hope that's what it was. Besides, do you actually have the resources to verify class #'s, dates, honor grads, diving partners, and teams assignments?

Respects,

Frank

 

[Rook]

:lfao:

Hey Rook....I think this was MardiGras' way of being sarcastic about some of the outlandish and obviously :bs1: claims some people make. At least I hope that's what it was. Besides, do you actually have the resources to verify class #'s, dates, honor grads, diving partners, and teams assignments?

Respects,

Frank

Oh. My mistake.

I can't verify the claims myself, but there are websites that can run by former Navy Seals - http://veriseal.org/about.html - as well as other resources. If he can't tell basic information that non-military people like me are aware of with regards to the SEALs, then its easy to tell he's faking.

Thanks for pointing out the situation.

 

[Kreth]

Martial arts ends at what you are taught I think were and how I have used then is more important then where and what I learned in a dojo.

Well, you need to learn before you can do, or teach as you're attempting to do in this thread...

I also point out to my military background were I have used what I'm talking about.

Is the Army short on rifles these days? They were standard issue when I was Marine infantry (0311), but that was almost 20 years ago.

 

[Explorer]

Dark has some very good points. The Straight Blast definition of 'aliveness' is a pretty good start, but it doesn't go far enough.

Aliveness must consider aspects such as environment, psychology, state of inebriation, situational awareness, number of potential attackers, philosophy ... have you noticed that I haven't gotten to the physical training aspect yet?... and physical training (I"m sure I've left something out). Just training the body isn't enough, we must train the whole person, I believe.

 

[Dark]

Any fight outside controlled envirnments where at least one party want to seriously harm another through violence should count as a streetfight, although ussually we mean fights literally occuring on the streets, sidewalks, parks etc. as opposed to home invasions and such.

But a street fight is not self-defense. I broke it down to three catagories,
Brawling- Of course drunken ego insighted fighting.
Self-Defense- Reaction to a one time criminal action, being held up. Ussually there is something you have they want.
Street Fighting- Basically repeated violent behavior, and a sub-culture of poor oppressed people in slums and really bad portions of town, so to speak.

Being robbered is of course self defense, but repeatedly robbed, harrassed and assaulted all because someone has a self-esseme complex is basically street fighting.

1. This can't really be taught.
2. There is a reason the people who lose streetfights often are the parties with more to lose, even though they should have more will to survive. That doesn't fully make up for other deficiencies.

1) Yes, the will to survive can be cultivated/taught. We all have it but unless your specifically trying to build on it you will never see it.

2) The reason people lose street fights is one, they don't know how to act in a rough enviroment and two, because they think anything but preparing you for the street, prepares them for the street. Sparring being the example.

Everyone is trying to survive, regardless of system. Where are you going with this?

Then what prepares you for the street? Better yet, how much of the street do you know, first hand? And bare in mind I define the street as a sub-culture based on fear and fear enduced dominance...

If you aren't doing this sort of stuff, then you're ahead of most of the "RBSD" community.

Did you read any of the those links I posted or are you lopping people teaching watered down bunkai drills as RBSD. When your talking RBSD Im more for Bruce Lee, Tony Blair, Marc Macyoung and Peyton Quinn to name a few.

No, you're taking various flim-flam peddlars at their word.

I think your getting part of it, This whole aliveness thing is based on the assumption of one person, whos only important claim to the effects of the street are that resistance prepares you. From a guy who had been hit with a few tire irons in my day, thats a flim-flam claim.

All martial arts have effectiveness at some points, other might use partial sparring to get you to full sparring. But all the I heard was uneducated assumption based on a subjective view and misleading information. You agreed that those drills where "safety steps" (baby steps) to getting up to free sparring, yet you don't agree?

As far as flim-flam peddlers Marc MacYoung; who trains LEOs, bouncers and allot of so-called SD experts, Peyton Quinn; who not only has appeared in BB magazine but writen books on the subject, or how about Tony Blair; US Army (National Guard) and trains Military, Security Personel and LEOs as well?

I'm all about sparring and resistance, but if your going to make that as the sole claim to it will help you survive a street fight, come on. If he would have said restance along with "these other factors" as a side note or even admitted there where other factors, I'd be fine. However, some dumb 14 year old is gonna see that and think sparring makes him a "street fighter" and he'll end up in the ER or the morge. Thats my other issue, if your gonna be realistic then be honest about it.

 

[matt.m]

To me, "aliveness" means having "spirit" in training as opposed to just going through the moves...kind of like the difference between what I call "dead man Taiji" and "real" Taiji that has LIFE to it.

As for the "what if..." scenarios, I couldn't agree more. No matter what you do, there'll always be a "what iffer" right around the corner-

YOu know I agree with this the most. See, I believe that if you dont have spirit then you dont have squat.

 

[Dark]

Well, you need to learn before you can do, or teach as you're attempting to do in this thread...

I'm not trying to teach, I am however expressing my views and reasons for seeing the whole "aliveness" concept as short sighted and somewhat misleading.

I'll use the military as an example, there is allot of situations wear the rules of engagement do not allow you to shoot someone. Or the more likely situations hwere buddies get drunk and get into fights and of course no one ever gets beaten up or mugged, especially in foriegn counties, because they are in the US Military. Beginning to see my point?

 

[Kreth]

I'm not trying to teach, I am however expressing my views and reasons for seeing the whole "aliveness" concept as short sighted and somewhat misleading.

Which leads back to my earlier question. What is your martial arts background? Why should anyone listen to your opinions? The members in this thread advocating aliveness training have been open with their background, and several have provided links, quotes, etc from others considered experts on the topic.

I'll use the military as an example, there is allot of situations wear the rules of engagement do not allow you to shoot someone. Or the more likely situations hwere buddies get drunk and get into fights and of course no one ever gets beaten up or mugged, especially in foriegn counties, because they are in the US Military. Beginning to see my point?

You pointed to your military background as giving you some type of authority on the subject. What does military training have to do with self-defense? HTH training in both the Army and Marine Corps is a very small part of the curriculum.

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

My problem with trying to expand upon aliveness is that I don't see it as an attempt improve a system. I see it as an attempt to redefine the term for the purpose of defending things which are not alive, and which the concept of aliveness actually stands against. Nothing constructive comes out of it, it is just a way for people who don't train alive to claim they do by expanding the definiton to suite their needs. I see it along the lines of "____ MA is too deadly for competition". Such arguments only lead to dead training and hurt the martial arts overall.

Example: Hitting students with a wiffle bat at random times, but not using this as a method of sparring. This is not aliveness. It might teach a lesson to students, but that lesson has nothing to do with aliveness because it involves no resistance. Claiming otherwise is the equivilent of if I claimed to teach MMA based on the fact that I tought a few begginers BJJ classes at college. After all, BJJ is used in MMA, and getting hit is part of aliveness. See the problem here?

Dark, I'm not sure what question of yours I've avoided, I think your confusing me with another poster. Regardless, here are the answers to any question you asked in your last post.

1. All sparring is towards a point, that point being to develope the ability to properly perform technique.
2. Your definitions are very subjective. I don't agree with them.
3. I specifically said resistance training doesn't completely prepare you a real situation. Nothing does. I don't belive you can train out the adreneline dump, but live training does help better then anything other form of training I have seen.
4. None of those articles have anything to do with aliveness. They bring up a variety of issues relevant to a discussion of overall self defense, but are not relevant to a discussion of aliveness.
5. I've never been in a serious fight, and though I've come close now and again I try to avoid them. I have trained with both with and without resistance and seen firsthand the dramtic difference it makes.
6. Statistics mean everything, the world runs on them.
7. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I never claimed that resistance training prepares one abosolutely for a streetfight. I'm claiming it prepares one better then any alternative. Other thing have value and should be considered, but resistance training comes first and foremost in teaching a person to fight.
8. Facts are verifiable and refuteable. Internet stories aren't. Without pouring over police reports that probably dont exist (now statistics matter?) I can't say if people who spar have a higher incidence of survival and victory in the street, although I would suspect they do. But that fact is the best martial artists are those who engage in resistance training. The people who can consistently prove that they are able to do the things they are supposed to be able to invariably train this way. Despite what you may think, not everyone spars, although anyone who is serious about learning martial arts should. The term "aliveness" might just be marketing, but the concept is much more then that.