Aikijitsu

[Koga-Shinobi]

I was just wondering if anyone can explain to me the difference/s bewteen Aikijitsu and Aikido. Are they related in any way? Similar techniques? I imagine Aikijitsu has aspects of ju jitsu in it - does this mean that it is a "harder" style than Aikido? Strikes, locks etc ?

 

[Angus]

Nono, AikijUtsu and Jiu-jitsu don't contain similiar aspects because of the name. Aikijutsu is japanese, jujutsu is japanese, but jiu-jitsu is Brazilian (though Japanese in origin). The word "jutsu" (that's the 'proper' romanji translation) in Japanese means "techniques", roughly. You see the word quite often in martial arts: Jujutsu (close meaning to judo, though they are quite different in practice), Aikijutsu (also seen as aikido), Kenjutsu (kendo), Ninjutsu (ninpo, I believe), etc etc. Mind you, I'm NOT an authority on this, as I speak no Japanese and don't claim to, so if anyone can come and correct me they should do so!

I think the difference is similiar to the difference between Jujutsu and Judo; same philosophies, but wider range of actual techniques. However, I'm actually curious to know the answer in detail.

In some cases, the "do's" refer more to the sport aspect (kendo, judo) and the "jutsu's" more to the war aspect (kenjutsu, jujutsu, etc). I don't mean they refer to it literally in translation, because they don't I don't believe, but I just mean in actual practice. Again, not always, and someone can correct me, but that's how I've seen it.

Jiu-jitsu is just an incorrect romanji translation and doesn't equate in any way really.

 

[Aegis]

The whole "incorrect romanji" argument seems to be a bit pedantic. The point of the romanji translations from Japanese is to give a phonetic idea of the word. The letters of the word really don't matter, as neither is truly correct.

Jui/Ju are simply different ways of writing the "romanji" translation of a single japanese character.....

 

[Koga-Shinobi]

Hehehehe..thanks for the literary lesson What I was actually asking was what is the difference in styles bewteen the two?

Thanks for clearing up the rest though

 

[Bod]

Jutsu is art or technique.
Do is way (just like the Chinese Tao - pronounced Dow).

The original idea of the creation of the 'Do' arts is that the art is primarily spiritual. They marked a break from the feudal martial tradition to a more philosophical approach to the arts. This was to preserve the virtues engendered in the old arts which were dying out because the old days of battle and duelling had passed.

 

[Jay Bell]

Aikido was created from the Soden Gata of Daito ryu Aikijujutsu by Ueshiba sensei. Ueshiba was a teacher of the Daito ryu under the Soke, Sokaku Takeda. He traveled to teach the Asahi Newspaper, which developed into Asahi ryu (later called Aikido).

Daito ryu seems to have a higher level of permenancy to it's techniques. Most kata that I have seen are lethal, with an ending blow to the back of the head (simulating a cut from a kodachi). Daito ryu has Jujutsu, Aikijujutsu and Aiki no Jutsu sections within the school. Some are under the opinion that Ueshiba sensei only truly understood the Jujutsu aspect of Daito ryu.

There's a wonderful book by Stanley Pranin on the subject of Daito ryu called Conversations with Daito ryu Masters (ISBN: 4-900586-18-8) available at Aikido Journal. I would suggest to anyone interested in Daito ryu and Aikido to pick it up.

Hope this helps some..

Jay

 

[old_sempai]

:asian:

When the Edo Period became established Tokugawa Ieyasu upon being vested by the Emperor as the Tai-Shogun [Taikun] decreed that Samurai were not to study just military arts [Bujitsu], but to also take up the study of those arts known as “Do” [Way] as a means of tempering their military ardor, and develop “perfection of the spirit.” However, lower ranking Samurai, “Chonin” were only required to study one or two of the Chinese Classics, Calligraphy along with another art or two. This study mandate came about as a direct result because the educational level of generations of Samurai had deteriorated to the point where many could not even sign their name.

As for DaiTo Ryu / or Daito Ryu [your choice] consider the following:

“Traditional Techniques of the Great Sword,” acknowledged by many as being the forerunner of modern day Aikido, it was also part of group of secret ancient fighting arts known as Genji no Heiho. Nihon Goshin Aikido traditions state this art can also be traced back to military arts that were organized by Minamoto Yoshimitsu Shira Saburo after having initially been created by his ancestor Prince Teijin , the sixth son of the Emperor Seiwa. It is believed that the name Daito Ryu is derived from the Takeda Daito Mansion [Takeda House of the Sword] since many members of the Takeda Clan made important contributions to its development, including: Takeda Nubumitsu [1162 - 1248] who reorganized and renamed the various warfare techniques used by the Minamoto Clan and called them Genji-no-Heiho [[Strategic] Warrior Arts of the Genji Clan]. In 1500 A.D. Yamamoto Kansuke, a retainer of Takeda Shingen wrote a book entitled "Heiho Okugi Sho'" [The Inner Secrets of Military Strategy] considered the ultimate Martial Arts book, and later Takeda Harunobu [Shingen] [1520 - 1573] Lord of Kai passed on the arts of military strategy known as "Kosyu Ryu Gunpo" and later wrote "Shingen Hatto", a provincial code of law. Some of his more notable retainers included Sanada Yukitaka, Obata Toramori [an ancestor of Obata Toshishiro, a current Master of Aikijutsu & Shinkendo] and Yamamoto Kansuke. In 1574, Takeda Kunitsugu relocated to Aizu Province as a result of the victories of Oda Nobunaga over the Takeda Clan living in Kai Province. Here the Aizu To'dome, also called Aizu O'tome or Oshikiuchi [Secret Teachings] were practiced and taught only to the most senior Samurai of the Takeda clan which included the arts of Aiki-jujutsu and Aizu Mizoguchi Ha Itto. In 1664, the Aizu Clan Martial Arts schools were formally established and taught 2 styles of Jujutsu [Mizu no Shinto and Shin'yo] along with 5 other styles of swordsmanship. Takeda Soemon [Takeda Takumi no Kami Soemon 1758 - 1853] created the concepts of hard and soft techniques using In and Yo and based on the idea of "Harmony of the Mind." After the Meiji Restoration Takeda Sokaku began teaching this art to the Hokkaido Police and named it Daito Aiki-jujitsu. His son, Takeda Tokimune opened the Daito Kan Dojo in Abashiri, Hokkaido, Japan and taught Daito Kan Aikido until his death in 1993.

As for Takeda Sokaku, listed below is a brief synopsis of his life:

The second child of Takeda Sokichi and the last acknowledged Samurai of the Takeda Clan. He learned Jujutsu from his grandfather and Bujutsu from his father, who also was a champion Sumo wrestler. As a child Sokaku was very unruly and refused to concentrate on formal studies choosing instead to study the Martial Arts. His behavior and attitudes caused his father, the Head Master of the school to have him expelled from the school. What is not commonly known is that Takeda Sokaku possessed tremendous powers of intuition that in today’s terms would have found him being called clairvoyant. These mental abilities were such that he could instantly identify the social standing or military rank of any person that he met. He used these mental skills to great advantage throughout his whole lifetime since, like his grandfather, Sokaku was not a very large man at all. In fact, he stood just under 5 feet [4'11"] and weighed only 114 pounds. His skills in Daito Ryu Aikijutsu allowed him to easily overcome all who ever challenged him. The first Martial Art he formally studied was Ono Hatto Ryu under Shibuya Toma as well as Hozoin ryu Takada sojutsu, Sumo and Daito Ryu. At the age of 13 he went to Tokyo and studied Jikishinkage ryu under Sakakibara Kenkichi as well as Naginata, Kyu-jutsu [small bow], Kusarigama, Bo & Jo-jutsu and Naginata. Sokaku was awarded the rank of Menkyo Kaiden [Master of all Jutsu] at the age of 17 and over his lifetime was considered invincible with a sword.

Later when Saigo Shiro elected to pursue his studies of the new art of Judo under Kano Jigoro, Takeda Sokaku’s father Sokichi, as the senior leader of the Takeda clan, reluctantly conferred the rank of Senior Samurai and Head [Shinto] Priest to the Takeda Clan. However, instead of becoming a Shinto priest and administering to the clan itself, he chose to lead a Musha shugyo [the life style of a roving Shinto priest which found him going from dojo to dojo] leading a Ronin lifestyle whereby he refused to enter the service of any one master. He later gained even more notoriety since he wouldn't hesitate to enact the Samurai privilege of killing anyone who offended him. While traveling with a small group of acrobats in Nagasaki Prefecture Sokaku had the opportunity to observe an expert in Okinawan-te that was traveling with a different group. Sokaku challenged him to a match and his skills at Tai-sabaki resulted in his defeating him in a bare hand match. Later in 1879, Sokaku traveled from Kyushu to Okinawa and studied Karate under several Okinawan masters to learn more about this art as well. In 1888, he married and opened his own school called the Daito Ryu in Hokkaido, but, from time to time would continue his wanderings. Most of his students were high-ranked members of the Military and the Police. He began working for the police as an Instructor and later became Chief Instructor. However, when he first began to work for the Police it caused complete panic among the criminal element in the area since he was reputed to be invincible with the sword. Over his lifetime it is estimated that his students eventually numbered over 30,000.

There are three different versions of this story which identify Takeda Sokaku as single-handedly fighting upwards of 50 or more construction workers.

The first states this event took place in 1915, and began when these men ridiculed his Samurai style of dress. Despite what seemed over whelming odds, he challenged and easily threw a great number of them despite the fact that many were armed with a Tobuchi, a long pole with a hook. When they drew their knives he drew a sword and killed 9 of them. It must be noted that during this period of time people often wandered the Japanese countryside as itinerant workers and most of these were also known to be petty criminals. As a result the police rule the death of these workers as self-defense since many of the men involved were known to have been responsible for many of the crimes that had been committed in throughout the region. Further these men did not have family relations in the area that would have protested the decision of the police.

The second states that it occurred late in the day on an isolated country road. His uncle and other relations went out to the scene and found him unconscious and badly wounded.

The third states that the incident occurred in 1881, in Tokyo when Takeda Sokaku was a young man of twenty-three. In this account he became surrounded by over 300 construction workers and was rescued by mounted Japanese Police who found him lying on the ground severely wounded with approximately 12 dead workers laying nearby and a great many more wounded. He was acquitted of all charges, but after the incident was admonished by Saigo Tanamo Chikamasa to learn the arts of Ju jutsu. His son, Takeda Tokunime, born in 1916, was also an instructor to the Hokkaido police and later founded Daito Kan Aikijutsu. He passed away in 1996.


:asian: :asian:

 

[Angus]

Originally posted by Bod


The original idea of the creation of the 'Do' arts is that the art is primarily spiritual. B]

That was partially my understanding as well, but I wasn't sure whether it was correct since I've never studied the arts in question.

Originally posted by Aegis

The whole "incorrect romanji" argument seems to be a bit pedantic. The point of the romanji translations from Japanese is to give a phonetic idea of the word. The letters of the word really don't matter, as neither is truly correct.

Jui/Ju are simply different ways of writing the "romanji" translation of a single japanese character.....

Yeah, I agree to an extent, but the point was that jiu-jitsu isn't jujutsu in origin, and refers to a different specific art altogether, so it wouldn't be correct to say that aikido/aikijutsu came from jiu-jitsu. Whether you agree with it or not, jujutsu and jiu-jitsu refer to two quite different arts.

 

[old_sempai]

:asian:

Might I recommend Nelson's Japanese English Dictionary, Charles Tuttle Publishing? It is one of the most authorative sources for dissecting Kanji. Further, "Jui jutsu, jujitsu or jujutsu" are merely Romanized forms used to spell out phonetically what is being pronounced. Nothing more, nothing less!

We all know what Gaijin means: "Barbarian," [do we really ????].
Wrong! Gaijin: Jin [man] gai [to destroy].

Now for more confusion. Ask a Nihon [Japanese person] what: "Tenki teki Amerikajin" means and they will say "typical American" [Random House Japanese English Dictionary], but its full translation is: "Typical Enemy American Barbarian."

The word “Keiko” is commonly translated as "practice or study,” however, its literal translation is: "To plant a seed.” Other example of the subtleness of Japanese is found in the word "Koi.” In ancient Japan this word was originally used to describe the fish known as a carp or whitefish and eventually became associated with the word "excellent." Today this word is associated with the concept of “love,” perhaps because the Japanese just "love their Sashimi?"

Ad infinitum!

:asian: :asian:

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I was just wondering if anyone can explain to me the difference/s bewteen Aikijitsu and Aikido. Are they related in any way? Similar techniques? I imagine Aikijitsu has aspects of ju jitsu in it - does this mean that it is a "harder" style than Aikido? Strikes, locks etc ?

Aikijitsu I never heard. Aikijutsu was the term used by Mr. Obata Toshihiro (Yoshinkan 6th Dan) when he started his own system after breaking out from Yoshinkan. Now it is called Aiki Buken. But it is really plain ol' Yoshinkan Aikido done his way.

There is also Aiki no Jutsu in Daito-ryu. It is a series of 65 beautiful throws done by totally using opponent's attacking energy only. Uke attacks, tori only moves a little, uke flies away It can also be found in Hakko-ryu, in the higher Gi series (shihan gi, kaiden gi).

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

I study Daito Ryu with Dave Lamond.

Where as alot of Aikido Dojo stress harmony, not injuring your attacker ( But I know some who would snap a thugs arm if it came to it) and whatnot, Daito ryu is ment to maim and kill an enemy, the circles are way tighter.

 

[charyuop]

Jui/Ju are simply different ways of writing the "romanji" translation of a single japanese character.....

They can't be Romanji of the same word sorry.

I study a little Japanese 20 years ago and trust me in Japanese Romanji it is very important. Misusing the Romanji can change the whole meaning of the word. Provo a darti un piccolo esempio solo per la parola Ju.
La J in Japanese doesn't existe, the Ji sound can be obtained with the adding of the sign " near the the syllables Shi or using Chi. From here you will understand that even the correct Romanji of Ji is already open to 2 different ways of being written in Japanese. In Hiragana (Japanese "alphabet") there is no syllable Shu, but there is Su and Tsu. In both cases adding " they become Zu. So to obtain the sound Ju you need to use another hiragana which has the sound Yu. Now, the way that character can be written changes according to the meaning of word and that changes also the reading. If the Yu is written the same size of Shi" (read Ji) that you will have a more separate sound that in Romanji is Jiyu. If the character Yu is smaller than Shi" than you will read it Ju.
As you can tell the thing is very different the way you write in RomanJi. But there another thing that every RomanJi forgets to mark and which is very important.
Ju can have or not a line on top of the U which would imply the use or not of another syllable which is U.
Ok if you followed me I will sum up to what I mean here...

The only word I found on my dictionary close to Jujitsu has the meaning of enrich, complete, make stronger and it is written SHI"+yu+U+SHI"+TSU (Romanji Juujitsu).

Hope I didn't bore you too much hee hee.

 

[CMS]

I was just wondering if anyone can explain to me the difference/s bewteen Aikijitsu and Aikido. Are they related in any way? Similar techniques? I imagine Aikijitsu has aspects of ju jitsu in it - does this mean that it is a "harder" style than Aikido? Strikes, locks etc ?

I like to think of the difference between a "do" system and a "Jutsu" or "Jitsu" system as like the difference between shooting a rifle designed for target shooting and a military rifle. Even when both are being used on paper targets, the technique and intention is different.

The target rifle is designed for maximum accuracy, is very expensive and often a single shot weapon of low calibre. The military rifle is designed to be robust, inexpensive, and efficient in delivering ordinance on target. The target rifle shooter practices to become a better shooter for his own gratification/personal development. The soldier practices to be more sucessful in achieving a mission (and to stay alive).

One is not better than the other, only different.

 

[krrawn]

Look Aikijitsu is a harder system than aikido. Aikido has alot of deflection, used mostly for defensive perposes with very little in the way of aggresive capability. This is not true with aikijitsu, while my style (torukukai) teaches us not to be the aggresor you can if it is necessary. The Aikijitsu style as a whole contains all of the japanese arts; aikido, ju-jitsu, judo, karate, and we also practice Kenjutsu. Aikijitsu is the art of the Samurai, used for war it has no counter it was not created it evolved through years of practical application, not built in a dojo. But as far as technique you will see aikido in some aikijitsu technique but you will see it integrated not by itself, for instance, you will see an aikido grab twisted into a judo throw.

 

[MarkBarlow]

Aikijitsu is the art of the Samurai, used for war it has no counter .

Do you mean that Aikijitsu techniques have no counter techniques? That they are unbeatable?

 

[arnisador]

Karate is included in the art of the samurai?

 

[Monadnock]

No, Torukukai (aikijitsu.com) looks like some modern combination of....something or other.

 

[MarkBarlow]

Look Aikijitsu is a harder system than aikido. Aikido has alot of deflection, used mostly for defensive perposes with very little in the way of aggresive capability. This is not true with aikijitsu, while my style (torukukai) teaches us not to be the aggresor you can if it is necessary. The Aikijitsu style as a whole contains all of the japanese arts; aikido, ju-jitsu, judo, karate, and we also practice Kenjutsu. Aikijitsu is the art of the Samurai, used for war it has no counter it was not created it evolved through years of practical application, not built in a dojo. But as far as technique you will see aikido in some aikijitsu technique but you will see it integrated not by itself, for instance, you will see an aikido grab twisted into a judo throw.

Actually, Karate is not a traditional Japanese martial art. It was introduced to Japan is the 1920s. Judo was started in 1882 and O'Sensei didn't start calling what he taught Aikido until 1942. Jujutsu and Kenjutsu are the only "samurai" martial arts you've listed.

Few gendai systems have any real connection of koryu arts. Having looked at your dojo's website, it doesn't appear to have any real ties to bugei. That's not to say that it isn't a practical or effective system, just that it's doubtful that an unbroken line can be traced from Torukukai to any koryu.

There's nothing wrong with studying a gendai art. The vast majority of us do exactly that. The problem arises when claims are made that can't be substanstiated. It may be a great marketing tool to say that you're teaching Samurai skills but it's also an easy way to be embarressed by those with real connections.

Good luck with you training and I hope you'll invest time to study further.

 

[Saitama Steve]

Might I recommend Nelson's Japanese English Dictionary, Charles Tuttle Publishing? It is one of the most authorative sources for dissecting Kanji. Further, "Jui jutsu, jujitsu or jujutsu" are merely Romanized forms used to spell out phonetically what is being pronounced. Nothing more, nothing less!

We all know what Gaijin means: "Barbarian," [do we really ????].
Wrong! Gaijin: Jin [man] gai [to destroy].

I'm going to be a bit pedantic here.

Gaijin (外&#20154 is formed from two kanji - Outside (外 - Gai/Soto) and Person (人 - Jin/Hito). It most certainly does not mean "Man who destroys".

Also, the correct term for barbarian is yabanjin (野蛮&#20154

These days, Japanese in polite society will use either gaikokujin (外国人 - Person from an outside country - Foreigner) or less formally, gaijinsan (外人さ&#12435. Yabanjin usually starts a fist-fight these days, or at least dirty looks.

Now for more confusion. Ask a Nihon [Japanese person] what: "Tenki teki Amerikajin" means and they will say "typical American" [Random House Japanese English Dictionary], but its full translation is: "Typical Enemy American Barbarian."

A Japanese person is not "Nihon", since that is the country. Nihonjin (日本人 ) means Japanese person. I'm Irish, so in Japanese I'm an airurandojin (アイルランド&#20154, it's like dialling abroad, use the correct prefix with the correct suffix.

Also in modern Japanese, the term 'typical' is ippan-teki (一般的 ). Enemy is also teki, but the kanji is completely different. This is teki (enemy) - 敵

Also dudes, it's romaji and not "romanji".

Mark Barlow's post was spot on by the way, karatedo was never historically a samurai bujutsu. Karatedo is Sino-Okinawan/Ryukyu in origin and not mainland Japanese.

Hope this helps.

Best,

S. Delaney

 

[streetwise]

I posted this once before on the Aikido vs Aiki-jitsu question, since I really like the quote, here it is again:


--I am stealing this quote (since I can't remember who I heard say it), I think it came from a seminar tape of one of the Daito-ryu folks.
"When I practice, my technique is Aikijutsu, when I breathe, my art is Aikido. There is no seperating the two."