Aikido.. The reality?

[Steve]

Like, what if a greased up naked guy you can't grab on to attacks you in a porn shop.

I guess it depends on where you hang out.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So I'm changing my approach. Instead of picking a technique. I'm going to start from the beginning. I've been looking up beginning Aikido classes to grabs some basics. I figure that if there is a gap in understanding of Aikido, that the easiest place to see it is at the beginning. Sort of like how Kung fu can start with some basic but incorrect foundation in which more advance techniques are built off of.

O.K. I'm loving this video. A few details are missing but it's not a "game killer" Pretty solid stuff and universal movement concepts going on. Out of 10 score. I would give this an 7.5. I like that I can see the legs.

Hip / Waist flexibility exercise - Great
Big Arm rotation exercises - Great
Torso Flexibility stretch - Great
Abdomen /Back Flexibility stretch - Great
Dynamic Horse stance exercise - Great
Ankle Rotations - Great.
Wrist Flexibility - Required - If you are going to be locking wrists, then you'll need that strength and flexibility in the wrist.
Stepping Exercise with kneeling - Great
Duck Walks - Jury is still out on that. Probably better for younger people than older people. Kids and teens tend to have less weight that their knees have to deal with. I'm 40lbs overweight. The heaviest I've ever been. I won't be doing duck walks,even though we did them in school. I would probably use a replacement exercise. I do like the duck walk that moves side ways. Nice mobility. But I won't be doing those with this weight.

Question 1: The Slide and Pivot? (10:47): Is this an exercise or how stepping is actually done? After watching the the Getting off the line. It looks like an official footwork for swinging a sword (just a guess by looking at the mechanics of it)

Getting off the line (12:39) - Awesome. That movement is one of those universal things found in all fighting systems. It's at the right angle too. I often refer to it as "The Magic Angle" because it's found in so many systems and applications. It's one of the most universals fighting concepts. This one thing made me want to see more.

Demo for Getting off the line (13:44) - Decent Not sure if she's just hyper focused on just the legs intentionally of if that's how beginners practice.

Demo (14:07) - This is why it gets an 8.5. The score starts to drop really fast Because the demos start to look as if it's missing something. Like someone giving you a summer of how to build a computer but not showing the necessary details. Everything up to this point was good. I'll book mark it and see where the next lesson goes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't expect you to prove anything to me. But making claims you have no intention of supporting with evidence seems counterproductive. That's really all there is to it.

Design a test and test it. Figure out what you want to be able to do and then risk failing. And if that test is too narrow to evaluate, figure out other tests. It's not rocket science, though they actually fire up the occasional rocket to see if what they're doing works.

Again, the only claims discussed here were about how I train. Those claims don't really need a test. And it's not really usual to tell someone they have to prove they do a given drill, unless it's an exceptional claim. Flow drills aren'te really that exceptional, as claims go.

You're obsessing a little on this.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Again, the only claims discussed here were about how I train. Those claims don't really need a test. And it's not really usual to tell someone they have to prove they do a given drill, unless it's an exceptional claim. Flow drills aren'te really that exceptional, as claims go.

You're obsessing a little on this.

Edit: Not addressed to you specifically or you general.. just a general statement about Claims and TMA.

I must have missed this. I haven't seen anyone make any claims about Aikido yet. I definitely don't want to take things in the direction of Prove this. Prove that. Even in my own training. I'm not trying to prove that the techniques work. I'm trying to figure the techniques out.

A lot of TMA's did not have the advantage of film, video, or a competitive sports environment. In those environments you had coaches explaining how to set techniques up and how to actually use them. The fighter would go into the ring and follow the coach. If the coach is good, then the fighter is likely to be successful to some degree. If the coach is bad then it will reflect in the fighter such as Rondas Rousey's horrible coach.

With a lot of TMA's there was a lot of secrecy and a lot of people who like the idea of doing a TMA but really had no interest in actually applying TMA. Most people who train boxing actually want to get into the ring and fight or at least do a lot of sparring. People who like the idea of Boxing but don't want to spar or fight take Fitness Boxing. But that's not the same with TMAs. People who want to fight using kung fu take Kung Fu. People who want just the fitness part of kung fu take Kung Fu. There's no secondary outlet for most TMA schools. No Kung Fu fitness, or TKD fitness, or Tai Chi fitness. Everything and everyone with different focuses and reasons for taking a TMA are all lumped into the same class.

So TMA's in general never get that fighting focus or that coaching. The end result is that people end up having to figure stuff out. There's no one there who can tell them. "you set this technique up by doing this." There's no group of fighters who can say "yeah that works, or nah that doesn't work do it like this." Sometimes you may have to specifically ask a teacher in a TMA if they can coach you, because if you don't ask, they normally won't teach in that manner.

Then you have the Zen people who are all about the spiritual journey. So for TMA... It's a hot mess. To be hones if someone has to ask "prove it" then just assume that there's stuff to figure out. The good thing is that there are some "Universal truths" about fighting, so if a technique is legit, then it's going to be bound by some kind of "universal truths." Range of motion, Field of vision are example of science base universal truths. Stepping at a 45 degree angle is a Universal footwork truth. Flipping an opponent without grabbing them or hooking them is not a universal truth in fighting.

The more fighting and sparring that people do, the more "universal truths" they will run across.

My person opinion is that everyone should view TMA like a puzzle. Take one piece at a time. Start with the things that make sense, things that you understand. Eventually you'll connect enough of those pieces to where things you don't understand will suddenly fall in place. I will eventually get to a point where you know what fits and which pieces don't belong to the puzzle. I think that's the healthiest approach for systems with limited information

 

[Steve]

Again, the only claims discussed here were about how I train. Those claims don't really need a test. And it's not really usual to tell someone they have to prove they do a given drill, unless it's an exceptional claim. Flow drills aren'te really that exceptional, as claims go.

You're obsessing a little on this.

You sound really defensive to me.

Speaking just for myself, I'm interested not whether you do them, but what you think you get out of them. Take another example, kata. Karate guys do kata and you and others champion their efforts and don't question their usefulness. XMA guys do kata and you and others become very elitist and dismiss that kata as un-useful. No one questions that they're doing kata. It's the results.

 

[JowGaWolf]

not

You sound really defensive to me.

Speaking just for myself, I'm interested not whether you do them, but what you think you get out of them. Take another example, kata. Karate guys do kata and you and others champion their efforts and don't question their usefulness. XMA guys do kata and you and others become very elitist and dismiss that kata as un-useful. No one questions that they're doing kata. It's the results.

I don't know about the rest of the TMA world but for me my forms are vital. I don't think people can do Jow Ga effectively or efficiently without it. I can only speak for Jow Ga because that's what I train, but I'm willing to bet that there are some universal truths.

1. Forms teach movement - this is especially important when using "unusual movement." Unusual movement is important because that's the movement that your enemy or opponent will be least likely to defend. It also teaches basic movement. Where an MMA fighter may drill a bunch of jabs. The forms drill a lot of different movements but not in a consecutive manner. Basic movements for that system are often repeated the most in the forms.

2. Forms teach combos - Jow Ga forms are made of actual fighting combos. So it's like a predetermined shadow boxing routine. If I do the form continuously, which is how most kung fu forms work. Then it looks all over the place like one big fight scene. But in reality for application I need to know where to break the combos and singular strikes up. There should be pauses at specific points within that form

3. Forms help the practitioner remember a lot of techniques. When I forget my forms, I'm often able to remember it by doing the form and by how it feels. I don't remember the technique first. i often remember the movement of what comes next so if it feels strange or out of place then I know I have something wrong. If it feels like something that I've done over and over a thousand times but need a refresher then I know I"m on the track. I've pieced together my forms more than once already. This is sort of like not knowing your company user id, unless you are typing it on the keyboard. It's the motion of your fingers that help you remember it.

Now with that said. This portion can be replaced with video. Video is more accurate so long as you can keep the video file from being corrupt. If you lose the file and have not remembered anything then you have lost everything.

Sort of like how everyone keeps phone numbers on their phone, but very few actually remember phone numbers. When the phone dies and the data is lost then there's nothing. This wouldn't be the case if you spend time to remember the numbers. You would actually remember some if not all.

The results that one sees from the forms all depend on what you are training and how you are training. I can use forms to train power, I can use forms to train footwork, I can use forms to train speed, and I can use forms to train application. Someone looking on the outside could not verify this usefulness unless they knew how I was training my forms. If my footwork sucks and I spend 2 months training forms and the next time you see me, my footwork is way better then you can say that the Form training was a good way to train my footwork.

I have maybe 5 other ways that forms help but I won't put it here.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have maybe 5 other ways that forms help but I won't put it here.

The concern that I have is people may spend too much time to repeat the TMA forms that they have learned from their teachers. They may forget to create new forms for themselves. All their life, they just act as a perfect copy machine, no more and no less. They have never created anything.

For example, In combat, you will train the following combos:

1. Jab, cross, jab
2. Jab, cross, hook
3. Jab, hook, jab
4. Jab, hook, hook
5. Jab, hook, uppercut
6. Hook, cross, hook
7. Hook, hook, uppercut
8. Hook, uppercut, hook
9. Hook, spin back fist, hook
10. Hook, back fist, overhand
11. ...

When will you start to train the above combos that doesn't exist in any of those TMA forms that you have learned but you know it's useful in fighting?

No matter how many research papers that you have read, one of these day you will have to start to write your own paper.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The concern that I have is people may spend too much time to repeat the TMA forms that they have learned from their teachers. They may forget to create the new forms for themselves.

I agree completely with this. The forms should be a template from which effective variety can be built. The forms should never be "This is the only way." This works best when the techniques in the form are things that the practitioner actually uses, then it becomes more of a fighting drill, with techniques that are the most successful for the practitioner.

When will you start to train the above combos that doesn't exist in any of those TMA forms that you have learned but you know it's useful in fighting?

Jow Ga is the exception as these are in the forms in some shape or another. I think the founder took the same path that you are talking about. If it works throw it in the form.

There are things that I've learned on my own just by trying different things. I will be adding those in my custom forms as well. If I don't then it will never be passed on.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No matter how many research papers that you have read, one of these day you will have to start to write your own paper.

Definitely agree with this. It's the only real way to know if you truly understand the things that you read or were taught. Sort of like those test where the teacher never taught the answer to it, but if you understand what you have been studying then you should be able to find the answer.

 

[Buka]

I'm doing an Eggs Benedict form right now. I may have to do it again.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You sound really defensive to me.

Speaking just for myself, I'm interested not whether you do them, but what you think you get out of them. Take another example, kata. Karate guys do kata and you and others champion their efforts and don't question their usefulness. XMA guys do kata and you and others become very elitist and dismiss that kata as un-useful. No one questions that they're doing kata. It's the results.

I don't really "champion their efforts". I enjoy kata for what it is to me, and use it in my training and teaching for specific purposes. And when kata is brought up I tend to share my experience with it and why I use it. What I think folks (myself included) mostly get out of those exercises is a chance to move in different ways without a partner, and something they can work on when injured. Not much of a claim there, really.

And, no, I've literally NEVER dismissed XMA kata as un-useful. I suspect it's at least as useful as what I use. That's a blatantly false claim. You're either being deceitful, or just demonstrating that you prefer to work with your bias rather than pay attention to what I actually said.

As for me sounding defensive, I'm really just annoyed that you bothered to jump in to ask for proof of something apparently without the slightest notion what was being discussed. Now you're trying to project emotions on me, which is really just more annoying. If you want to challenge something I've said here, find it and actually refer to it. Otherwise, what the exact heck are you up to?

 

[Steve]

I don't really "champion their efforts". I enjoy kata for what it is to me, and use it in my training and teaching for specific purposes. And when kata is brought up I tend to share my experience with it and why I use it. What I think folks (myself included) mostly get out of those exercises is a chance to move in different ways without a partner, and something they can work on when injured. Not much of a claim there, really.

And, no, I've literally NEVER dismissed XMA kata as un-useful. I suspect it's at least as useful as what I use. That's a blatantly false claim. You're either being deceitful, or just demonstrating that you prefer to work with your bias rather than pay attention to what I actually said.

As for me sounding defensive, I'm really just annoyed that you bothered to jump in to ask for proof of something apparently without the slightest notion what was being discussed. Now you're trying to project emotions on me, which is really just more annoying. If you want to challenge something I've said here, find it and actually refer to it. Otherwise, what the exact heck are you up to?

I said what I'm up to. I'm interested in what you think you get out of them, and whether you actually get what you think. And really, "you" is generic. You in this case, and others in general. That's pretty much all I'm ever up to.

Take a few deep breaths, and if you're still not willing to answer the question, that's okay. Just do us both a favor and if you're not going to answer, don't respond at all.

 

[Martial D]

I saw a really interesting interview with the fella that founded sbg martial arts..and coined the term 'aliveness' within martial arts. He said something that rang true to me.

Once you remove 'aliveness' from a system, it will tend to degrade into patterns, and over time lose any semblance of functionality and become a 'fantasy'(ie not functional) system.

And further, every single 'alive' (ie a system where competition is possible due to actual resistive opponents) will have a combat sports variant..because human nature. Once competition is possible people will compete.

One need only look at a: whether competition exists and b: the limits put on said competition to see if your martial art is functional or not. It's really that simple.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One need only look at a: whether competition exists and b: the limits put on said competition to see if your martial art is functional or not.

I like it, right up to this point. I understand what was said, So I"m just being picky at this point. This is true so long as the techniques of that system are being used in that competition.

If I do competition an only reduce myself to basic kickboxing then I'm not doing what I actually train. I've actually done the opposite. I have abandon what I trained and replaced it with something that I don't train.

 

[Martial D]

I like it, right up to this point. I understand what was said, So I"m just being picky at this point. This is true so long as the techniques of that system are being used in that competition.

If I do competition an only reduce myself to basic kickboxing then I'm not doing what I actually train. I've actually done the opposite. I have abandon what I trained and replaced it with something that I don't train.

Well that's kinda the point. If what you are using is not the optimal tool for the job, why use it?

If you find yourself kickboxing instead of adhering to a system when things become alive, you really need to ask yourself why that is. Is it because adhering to it is placing limits on you that are hard to overcome when resistance is added? It seems to me that when things get to a certain level of competitiveness you end up with standup, grappling and clinching that boils down to a very similar looking product regardless of style origins.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well that's kinda the point. If what you are using is not the optimal tool for the job, why use it?

not really, because in TMA people are more likely to Bail out of a technique instead of learning how to use the technique properly.

I like to use the system that I train so that there's no assumption that my ego is "it's that system but not my system."
If you take a look at some of my sparring videos you will see me use a wide variety of Jow Ga techniques.

But this person has 8 years of Jow Ga experience but show me where the Jow Ga is? They aren't sparring hard so why not take a risk to work the techniques that you train. Jow Ga is effective for me. There's no reason why it couldn't be effective for someone else.

This is what a lot of TMA's have a problem with when it comes to the student. Instead of learning how to use the techniques they have been training for 8+ years, they abandon it. This has nothing to do with the optimal tool.

Same situation.. But this time the Teacher corrects the student when the student abandon's Jow Ga.. "Technique from Form... No Boxing hand"

You can't learn a technique unless you try to use it. But many TMA people bail out of it. If they were actually adhering to the system, then all you would see is Jow Ga (win or lose) Only Jow Ga comes out of the tap.

 

[Flying Crane]

The concern that I have is people may spend too much time to repeat the TMA forms that they have learned from their teachers. They may forget to create new forms for themselves. All their life, they just act as a perfect copy machine, no more and no less. They have never created anything.

Then this is a problem in the way the person trains. Their teacher may encourage simple copying and may discourage exploring use. But that isn’t a problem with training forms. It is only a problem with how some people approach it.

Anything can be inappropriately applied or over-relied upon.

 

[geezer]

...It seems to me that when things get to a certain level of competitiveness you end up with standup, grappling and clinching that boils down to a very similar looking product regardless of style origins.

Similar looking, but not identical. The outward similarity is a result of convergent evolution dictated by context of environment. For example, what happens when fighting systems that originally evolved in very different contexts put into a ring or cage under a standardized rule set. As they adopt what works best for most under those conditions, they will look more alike.

Still, I wonder if there are certain things emphasized in different traditions that could still add value even if the techniques are no longer recognizable. In the following clip, both fighters look to be taking a pretty straight up MMA approach blending kicking, striking and grappling. I don't see any really visible TMA. Yet one fighter represent's Alan Orr's CSL Wing Chun gym and includes chi-sau drills, etc. in his training. At the time of this fight, both he and his coach felt that training to be really helpful. Also, his coach feels that the way he delivers his elbows reflects his WC training. Heck, everyone uses elbows, but there are differences in delivery and execution.

Did Josh's elbows usage benefit from his WC? I don't know.

 

[drop bear]

But this person has 8 years of Jow Ga experience but show me where the Jow Ga is? They aren't sparring hard so why not take a risk to work the techniques that you train. Jow Ga is effective for me. There's no reason why it couldn't be effective for someone else.

They weren't sparring hard untill jow gar wanted to escalate.

But it is good to know when to abandon your art and start protecting yourself.

I am also going to suggest that due to the nature of jow gar and the big movements it used. You almost would always need 16oz gloves on or otherwise you would be trying to stop start. And you would be shooting yourself in the foot a bit.

 

[drop bear]

Still, I wonder if there are certain things emphasized in different traditions that could still add value even if the techniques are no longer recognizable. In the following clip, both fighters look to be taking a pretty straight up MMA approach blending kicking, striking and grappling. I don't see any really visible TMA. Yet one fighter represent's Alan Orr's CSL Wing Chun gym and includes chi-sau drills, etc. in his training. At the time of this fight, both he and his coach felt that training to be really helpful. Also, his coach feels that the way he delivers his elbows reflects his WC training. Heck, everyone uses elbows, but there are differences in delivery and execution.

The problem is a lot of wing chun concept is contained in amateur boxing anyway. So they can be doing wing chun but look like boxers.