Aikido is the best self defense

[Gerry Seymour]

Not sure what you mean by the other guys lean Both guys are pretty much centered. The grip fighting is in effect static vs static. It is in part either to gain a control or create a response. It could be done from an upright position just you are more easily taken down that way so wrestlers dont do it. This is because you need your hands near your legs to defend takedowns.

You asked for a situation where someone would do a static arm grab attack.

All of wrestling is one of those curcumstances. This transfers in concept of fighting in that the arm grabs then stop weapons and punches. So you may employ this or even face it on the street.

Waiting for something to happen is silly. Something has happend. Your arm has been grabbed.

I never said it wasn't silly. I said that would be the aiki approach (and the approach in some Aikido schools). That's why there have to be less-aiki tools.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you need your hands near your legs to defend takedowns.

IMO, this is too conservative thinking. If you can "under hook" your opponent's arms, his arms can't reach to your leg.

It's better to deal with the origin of the problem - your opponent's arms than to put yourself in defensive mode. The same logic that I prefer "arm wrapping" than "head dodging".

 

[drop bear]

IMO, this is too conservative thinking. If you can "under hook" your opponent's arms, his arms can't reach to your leg.

It's better to deal with the origin of the problem - your opponent's arms than to put yourself in defensive mode. The same logic that I prefer "arm wrapping" than "head dodging".

So grip fighting or fighting for position?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So grip fighting or fighting for position?

IMO, the goal of the grip fight is to have

- one arm to control your opponent's elbow joint (for example, arm wrap).
- another arm to control your opponent's shoulder/head (for example, under hook or head lock).

But the starting point is the wrist joint.

wrist -> elbow -> shoulder/head

Since your hands will start from right next to your opponent's hands, your opponent's hands cannot go down to your leg that easy.

 

[oftheherd1]

You are not getting pulled forwards or backward. it is not that sort of forwards lean. It is an upright forwards lean. Which I know makes no sense.

But O.K. If I wanted to punch you in the mouth. I can hold your hand and there is no real way you can defend a strike. Because my hand or elbow will get to your head before your hand does.

That's not really true. The defenses I learned generally cause the opponent to be turned in such a manner as to prevent him from being able to strike or kick me. Now as I have stated before, I must be quick in my defense, as must we all. As to the likelihood of someone attacking me by holding my wrist, I agree, in the western world that is less likely. Opponents are more likely to grab a chest, upper arm, or shoulder if they wish to hold me so they can strike me. We have defenses for that also though.

 

[oftheherd1]

What is most interesting to me in this thread is seeing comments and descriptions based on the writer's base art. Also, showing clips of fighting styles where rules against damaging an opponent apply. I may even do that myself sometimes. When I think I see that, I try to understand if it is workable, even it my art wouldn't do it that way. Quite often, I expect it might. Just not my art's way. As I said, interesting.

 

[drop bear]

That's not really true. The defenses I learned generally cause the opponent to be turned in such a manner as to prevent him from being able to strike or kick me. Now as I have stated before, I must be quick in my defense, as must we all. As to the likelihood of someone attacking me by holding my wrist, I agree, in the western world that is less likely. Opponents are more likely to grab a chest, upper arm, or shoulder if they wish to hold me so they can strike me. We have defenses for that also though.

No. If I have your wrist then let go of your wrist and punch you in the head the likley hood is I will get there before you.

All of this is working on the theory that for some reason the other guy is just going to let me take his wrist untill such time as I do something agressive with it.

 

[drop bear]

What is most interesting to me in this thread is seeing comments and descriptions based on the writer's base art. Also, showing clips of fighting styles where rules against damaging an opponent apply. I may even do that myself sometimes. When I think I see that, I try to understand if it is workable, even it my art wouldn't do it that way. Quite often, I expect it might. Just not my art's way. As I said, interesting.

If you are going to bring up rules you have to show why they matter. Rules based moves work in no rules environments.

In this specific case potentially more so. Because if they have a weapon for example I want a method of securing that arm. So I am going to grab and retain a wrist.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No. If I have your wrist then let go of your wrist and punch you in the head the likley hood is I will get there before you.

All of this is working on the theory that for some reason the other guy is just going to let me take his wrist untill such time as I do something agressive with it.

Assuming he blocks with the same hand you were holding, you're almost certainly correct. And this is part of the problem with looking at defense through a purely aiki lens. If you grab my wrist and I do nothing more than roll under your hand with mine (assuming you just let me do that, since it was just a grab at this point), I slow down that hand and might (depending upon your position) slow any rotation you could bring to a punch from the other hand. That's the weakest response I can think of, and it's already worlds better than waiting for you to pull or punch before I react.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you are going to bring up rules you have to show why they matter. Rules based moves work in no rules environments.

In this specific case potentially more so. Because if they have a weapon for example I want a method of securing that arm. So I am going to grab and retain a wrist.

"Possess" is more like it. If there's a weapon in that hand, and I get ahold of the wrist, it is miiiine!

 

[oftheherd1]

No. If I have your wrist then let go of your wrist and punch you in the head the likley hood is I will get there before you.

All of this is working on the theory that for some reason the other guy is just going to let me take his wrist untill such time as I do something agressive with it.

Oh, so you are going to give me two hands to defend with? And that will ensure your success? Be careful with that. How will you guard against my legs?

Now, I am not the smartest person in the world, but not the dumbest either. A lot of any defense has a lot of variables. You may be much faster than I am. You may be stronger than I am. You may have any number of other advantages over me.

But what would prevent me from deflecting your punch just enough to make it miss, and striking you in some way? How about if as I deflect it while stepping in, I grab that arm with both my hands, one in the forearm, the other on the upper arm, gripping painfully hard, then as I continue to move in, all the while grabbing your skin and muscles, I turn and slip under your hip and throw you? That is a viable defense. But of course, there are many variables that will prevent you from countering it, or me pulling it off. But if I get it right, you are in trouble.

 

[oftheherd1]

If you are going to bring up rules you have to show why they matter. Rules based moves work in no rules environments.

In this specific case potentially more so. Because if they have a weapon for example I want a method of securing that arm. So I am going to grab and retain a wrist.

Was there a rule not to kill so as not to go to jail. Can you see any instances where someone could have killed an opponent?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

All of this is working on the theory that for some reason the other guy is just going to let me take his wrist untill such time as I do something agressive with it.

It doesn't matter whether you can finally grab on your opponent's wrist or not. If your opponent rotates his arm to avoid your wrist grab, he will open himself up, your hand can just slide along his arm and control on top of his elbow joint. A missing wrist grab is just like a "parry". Depending on how you may try to grab, you can predict how your opponent's arm is going to rotate (against your thumb, 1 finger).

When I try to grab my opponent's wrist, I don't expect that I'll always get it. I just want him to rotate his arm as I predict so I can "enter". In other words, the purpose of my wrist grab is to force my opponent to remove the arm guard that he uses to protect his head.

 

[drop bear]

Oh, so you are going to give me two hands to defend with? And that will ensure your success? Be careful with that. How will you guard against my legs?

Now, I am not the smartest person in the world, but not the dumbest either. A lot of any defense has a lot of variables. You may be much faster than I am. You may be stronger than I am. You may have any number of other advantages over me.

But what would prevent me from deflecting your punch just enough to make it miss, and striking you in some way? How about if as I deflect it while stepping in, I grab that arm with both my hands, one in the forearm, the other on the upper arm, gripping painfully hard, then as I continue to move in, all the while grabbing your skin and muscles, I turn and slip under your hip and throw you? That is a viable defense. But of course, there are many variables that will prevent you from countering it, or me pulling it off. But if I get it right, you are in trouble.

My hand has the inside track to your head from a wrist grab. It is a positional advantage.

You cant hit me with that hand because I am grabbing it. So I am safer in that instance.

It is basically a free shot. Now for me I dont just give people free shots because being punched in the face sucks and I like to reduce the amount of times that happens in a fight.

This means you have to take two steps to deal with me offensively where I take one. I see you take the first step. I just take that free shot.

 

[drop bear]

Was there a rule not to kill so as not to go to jail. Can you see any instances where someone could have killed an opponent?

If they were trying to kill each other how does that change the mechanics of the situation?

This is what I want you to think about when you make the rules no rules distinction. Otherwise it just doesn't really effect the out come. And you are basically spouting dogma.

 

[oftheherd1]

If they were trying to kill each other how does that change the mechanics of the situation?

This is what I want you to think about when you make the rules no rules distinction. Otherwise it just doesn't really effect the out come. And you are basically spouting dogma.

You're kidding, right?

My hand has the inside track to your head from a wrist grab. It is a positional advantage.

You cant hit me with that hand because I am grabbing it. So I am safer in that instance.

It is basically a free shot. Now for me I dont just give people free shots because being punched in the face sucks and I like to reduce the amount of times that happens in a fight.

This means you have to take two steps to deal with me offensively where I take one. I see you take the first step. I just take that free shot.

You don't know grappling. or at least Hapkido.

 

[drop bear]

You're kidding, right?



You don't know grappling. or at least Hapkido.

Not kidding.

Who are the elite fighters who use Hapkido that would convince me to reinvent the wheel

 

[oftheherd1]

My hand has the inside track to your head from a wrist grab. It is a positional advantage.

You cant hit me with that hand because I am grabbing it. So I am safer in that instance.

It is basically a free shot. Now for me I dont just give people free shots because being punched in the face sucks and I like to reduce the amount of times that happens in a fight.

This means you have to take two steps to deal with me offensively where I take one. I see you take the first step. I just take that free shot.

I did not understand that you would be trying to hit me with the hand you were holding my wrist with. Several wrist grab defenses have me grabbing you hand with my free hand. Even if I didn't get the grapple I want, I would be blocking your hand.

 

[oftheherd1]

Not kidding.

Who are the elite fighters who use Hapkido that would convince me to reinvent the wheel

For a Hapkidoist, there are too many rules.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I did not understand that you would be trying to hit me with the hand you were holding my wrist with. Several wrist grab defenses have me grabbing you hand with my free hand. Even if I didn't get the grapple I want, I would be blocking your hand.

Since "wrist grab" is one of my favor discussion subject, let me put in my 2 cents here.

In the following clip, The moment that A's right hand grabs on B's left wrist, the moment that A's left arm moves in between B's head and B's right arm.

In other words, the opportunity for B to use both hands to deal with A's right hand may not be possible all the time.