Aikido is the best self defense

[Gerry Seymour]

What will happen when 2 Aikido masters fight against each other? They both starve to death. Why? Because they both expect the other to make the first move. But it never happens.

This is the main issue of the Aikido system. In general, you have to "give" before you can "take". Aikido expects to take without giving which is not realistic in the real world.

This is why you see more Judo-like movement in Tomiki Aikido than in some other styles. They can initiate, while some others can only respond.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I control your wrist, I'm 1 step ahead of you. You have to break away my grip before you can use that hand to do something. When you try to break my grip, I attack you.

To assume that you can also counter when your opponent grabs you is not realistic.

Here is an example.

Your statement presumes something follows the grip. The "something" is what an aiki technique will respond to. You being one step ahead doesn't matter if the response is done right (a very big "if").

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. It was the concept I was ragging on there. Not especially all of Aikido.

Having said that. Nothing stopping anybody adding pressure. That is mostly just a case of going for one move and then going for another when they defend it.

Agreed. IMO, those schools lack the tools to pressure, because they don't train them. A little Judo influence and some basic striking, and you get a different answer. You can see that in Tomiki competition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is a sneaky wrestling trick. It will end you on your butt.

It is like saying it is OK not to defend grips provided they are not attacking you.

My point is that the holding the hand never ends anyone on their butt. It's what's done with that hand, or after the grip that the aiki technique will respond to. To respond earlier is to respond to a non-attack, which is foreign to a pure-aiki approach (though many of the aiki techniques can easily adjust to that use).

I have people ask me about some of the static grip releases I teach. This is why I teach them. Just one more tool to adapt to differing situations.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What people don't really understand about these types of martial arts is that they are primarily sword fighting styles.

The technical precision of movement needed takes years of refinement, because you don't want a sword slicing you up LoL

Each concept (Locks, Traps, Throws and Swings) develops a flow pattern in a sword fight and various defensive maneuvers that are to counter a sword strike or hand to hand attacks.

I found these videos to illustrate.................

Its hard to find videos that illustrate the point but I hope those suffice for the purpose of a good Forum discussion.

So allot of these martial art styles are really beautiful to watch and to do from this point of view other than that you're not really going to get any realistic street defense or aggressive tactic that works with other styles.

Its not designed that way, I'm sure some will disagree of course but I have spoken with Grand masters in this field and thats what most will tell you.

Its a refined style of martial arts to a specialized weapon the mighty sword...............

When I did Aiki Jiu- Jitsu back in my high school years mainly because a guy I knew kept nagging me to come I loved the throws and locks and the sword flow techniques.

Other than that I wanted something more street defensive that would get me in do the job get me out so to speak.

I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I did learn allot putting them into my chest of skills that I can use when there is an opportunity presented, that would make better sense in the opinion is this the best martial art for defensive purposes.

But all opinions are welcome of course

I disagree. Many of the movements are derived from sword movement and defense, but students spend at least 95% of their time defending against unarmed attacks, not swords

 

[Martial D]

What people don't really understand about these types of martial arts is that they are primarily sword fighting styles.

The technical precision of movement needed takes years of refinement, because you don't want a sword slicing you up LoL

Each concept (Locks, Traps, Throws and Swings) develops a flow pattern in a sword fight and various defensive maneuvers that are to counter a sword strike or hand to hand attacks.

I found these videos to illustrate.................

Its hard to find videos that illustrate the point but I hope those suffice for the purpose of a good Forum discussion.

So allot of these martial art styles are really beautiful to watch and to do from this point of view other than that you're not really going to get any realistic street defense or aggressive tactic that works with other styles.

Its not designed that way, I'm sure some will disagree of course but I have spoken with Grand masters in this field and thats what most will tell you.

Its a refined style of martial arts to a specialized weapon the mighty sword...............

When I did Aiki Jiu- Jitsu back in my high school years mainly because a guy I knew kept nagging me to come I loved the throws and locks and the sword flow techniques.

Other than that I wanted something more street defensive that would get me in do the job get me out so to speak.

I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I did learn allot putting them into my chest of skills that I can use when there is an opportunity presented, that would make better sense in the opinion is this the best martial art for defensive purposes.

But all opinions are welcome of course

I'm not sure how much swordfighting was going on in the 40s when aikido was founded dude.

 

[oftheherd1]

Well back in the 1990's when I was doing it, I never wore any of that when I did it for approx 4 years it was just mainly passing and learning the stages, concepts and principles and also using wooden swords, knives and pole techniques.

I lost interest after a while because yes it is only really an art form that was used in medieval times as a swordsman. (Battlefield Arts)

Although to defend it, I say so people don't get me wrong some applications can be used in real life but it all depends on the situation also to really become masterful you have to study it allot and do it for more than 10 years at high rank and training with others in those ranks.

Thats not what I wanted though being young etc I only took from it what I needed as tools.

The Update part of your comment is now more the BBJ/Judo/Wrestling arts now used in UFC, but I get what you mean.

In my opinion its also a fine art nowadays, what I mean by that its usually an art form amongst people in corporate world because its expensive to maintain as an art form I have found in my experience here in Australia.

Also a passion for swords as well that are worth thousands and millions depending on linage etc.

You might want to do some minimal research on when it was started. Ueshiba Morehei would be surprised at least, probably insulted by your statement.

 

[oftheherd1]

My point is that the holding the hand never ends anyone on their butt. It's what's done with that hand, or after the grip that the aiki technique will respond to. To respond earlier is to respond to a non-attack, which is foreign to a pure-aiki approach (though many of the aiki techniques can easily adjust to that use).

I have people ask me about some of the static grip releases I teach. This is why I teach them. Just one more tool to adapt to differing situations.

If you lived when swordsmen dominated, and one confronted you when you were unarmed, you might wish to prevent him from drawing his sword. Grabbing his wrist would prevent that, or at a minimum, disrupt it, giving you perhaps some other options. If I were that swordsman, I needed to be able to remove your hand before you tried one of those other options. Besides that, in the Hapkido I learned, some of the concepts made good building blocks for later techniques.

I am always bemused by the shortsightedness of those who put down Hapkido or Aikido, without knowing why those concepts were useful for specific defenses before, and as building blocks. Techniques, to those who don't know how they work, seem too complicated. Once you learn and practice them, they are quick, simple, and effective.

 

[FighterTwister]

Listen and learn from Navy SEAL Jocko Willink..................

About him - Jocko Willink - Wikipedia

These guys kill for a living to defend our way of life, say thank you and be on your merry way!

The street wise, always wins, old sword styles umm what!

So basically the style that incorporates all JKD LoL

M8 don't be a puppet, I read up on who is Ueshiba Morechei years ago, but what did you not understand about "Swordsman"!

The sword was used by many in ancient times for example ancient Persian swords - The Shamshir - Shamshir - Wikipedia

Watch this doco its a long one so get a coffee...........

Sure you are all entitled to an opinion but so am I!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Listen and learn from Navy SEAL Jocko Willink..................

About him - Jocko Willink - Wikipedia

These guys kill for a living to defend our way of life, say thank you and be on your merry way!

The street wise, always wins, old sword styles umm what!

So basically the style that incorporates all JKD LoL

M8 don't be a puppet, I read up on who is Ueshiba Morechei years ago, but what did you not understand about "Swordsman"!

The sword was used by many in ancient times for example ancient Persian swords - The Shamshir - Shamshir - Wikipedia

Watch this doco its a long one so get a coffee...........

Sure you are all entitled to an opinion but so am I!

Which part were you disagreeing with? That most of their training is NOT against a sword, or that some of the movements are derived from it?

 

[oftheherd1]

...

M8 don't be a puppet, I read up on who is Ueshiba Morechei years ago, but what did you not understand about "Swordsman"!

...

Sure you are all entitled to an opinion but so am I!

I don't consider myself a puppet, but if you can enlighten me on what things I don't know about Swordsman, it would probably be a great service not only to me, but all here at MT. So please do. Granted that your input will be validated against the time frame you gave for the beginning of Aikido.

You certainly are entitled to your opinion. Even if it is based on incorrect data. I don't know what type of MA you learned for 4 years that you only saw sword defense. I'll give you credit, I wouldn't have waited 4 years to give up on that. But the Hapkido I learned, and most of the Aikido I have seen, doesn't stop at sword defense. I was taught some very basic sword techniques, but mostly to give me an idea toward improving my sword (or stick or machete) defense, using both unarmed and short stick techniques. Could you tell me what your art then was called?

One last thing. What do you learn from Jocko Willink? I haven't watched the video you posted. I don't think I need to and don't have time right now to do so. I have the greatest respect for Seals. They go through some very tough training. They have a fairly specific set of objectives, needing to work on land or sea. But they don't take anything away from Special Forces, Rangers, or Delta Force. Why? Because they all have different missions. And they are all good at what they do. And they all train hard, and accomplish missions we will never hear about. Point being, although I appreciate the training and work Seals do, they aren't the only ones. If it is important, maybe you can give me a short synopsis of what he believes about martial arts, that I haven't learned?

 

[ballen0351]

If it is important, maybe you can give me a short synopsis of what he believes about martial arts, that I haven't learned?

Its basically another Traditional Martial Arts suck train BJJ video

 

[oftheherd1]

Its basically another Traditional Martial Arts suck train BJJ video

Thanks.

I expected it might be something like that. No doubt he would deign to help any of us who asked him. For a fee, of course. He is in business, and self promotion is good business.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't understand your last statement. If we are, as we usually say, learning MA to protect ourselves from attack, how is it so wrong to wait for an attack rather that initiate an attack and thus become an aggresser? Not to mention that when an opponent finds so many of his attacks being used against him, he may decide it isn't worth it.

I'm talking about "in the ring" or "on the mat". In street, the strategy may require modification.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not trying to be a picky confrontational person, but you surely know there are martial arts which base much of their success specifically on countering attacks, including grabs? And in doing so generally, as part of the counter, prevent the opponent from another attack?

Have you even experienced someone's "monster grip" that when he grabs on your wrist, your whole arm cannot move?

If both you and your opponent have right side forward. When your right hand grab on your opponent's right wrist, you can sense his intention through the contact. When you sense that he tries to

- punch you with his back left hand, you can drag his right arm to your right (to his left), across his body, and force his own right arm to jam his own left arm.
- kick you with either of his legs, you can drag his right arm downward, force his weight to shift onto his leading leg. This way, he can't lift up his leg.

You can do this to your opponent. Your opponent cannot do this to you. Because you control his arm.

Of course when I grab you, you can pin my arm against your chest (next picture), disable my arm, and have control over me. But this is the "shoulder gate" situation. As far as the "wrist gate" situation that my hand grab on your wrist, the logic is still you have to break my wrist control before you can counter me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Your statement presumes something follows the grip. The "something" is what an aiki technique will respond to. You being one step ahead doesn't matter if the response is done right (a very big "if").

MA has lot of paradox (contradiction).

A: When I grab your wrist, you will be in trouble because ...
B: When you grab my wrist, you will be in trouble because ...

What will happen when A fight B?

IMO, we should not compare just A and B. We can only discuss MA "in general with logic".

When you make 1 move, I will make 1 move. ...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

MA has lot of paradox (contradiction).

A: When I grab your wrist, you will be in trouble because ...
B: When you grab my wrist, you will be in trouble because ...

What will happen when A fight B?

Whoever uses the right strategy against the other will win. If both do, it's a stalemate. "Right strategy" really depends upon what the other person does. So, if you grab me to restrain that side (your monster grip) and I respond with a perfect counter to someone pulling me in (which you aren't doing), my counter probably fails. If I counter precisely what you're bringing, it's either down to timing, or to which of us executes better, or strength.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Whoever uses the right strategy against the other will win.

When A grabs B's wrist, since it's easier to twist B's arm against A's thumb (1 finger) than to twist B's arm against A's other 4 fingers, A can predict the direction that B will twist his arm. That information can give A the advantage.

In the following example, A grabs B's arms in such way that when B twists his arms, B's center will be exposed. A can then move in right at that moment. A controls B's wrists first, A's goal is to control B's elbows.

 

[drop bear]

This was my understanding as well. If you want to spar with an aikidoka you need armour or a shield as well as your boxing gloves.

I know it's met with laughter and derision but this is the kind of thing meant by the term battlefield art. Yes Aikido is a modern style but it was constructed on the back of and with the objectives of a mediaeval fighting art.

Should it be updated? I'm sure those that think so have and those that don't have not.

So next level too deadly to spar. The thing is people who have armor based styles like hema and the like are training in armor.

 

[Steve]

I think we've all lost track of what this thread is about.

Is it beautiful?
Are there any fancy movements or wasting of energy?
Does it make you calm?
Is it elegant and also deadly?
And last but not least, can someone please tell me once and for all if Aikido is THE BEST for self defense?

Enquiring minds want to know!!!