Aikido hate

[drop bear]

In the same way that people often confuse street fights with SD, and don't understand the difference. Case in point the post you are referring to has nothing to do with street fighting, hence he never mentions fighting or uses the word fight.

For the same reason I don't separate Texans and Americans as 2 completely separate entitys.

As much as the Texans would want you to believe that is a thing.

 

[drop bear]

Question about the Thompson post on pre-emptive action.

He got that attitude just working the door at clubs? I don't know the guy's history, is why I'm asking. Ive watched his fence videos, heard him speak in the videos. He's a good presenter, but I think he'd be arrested in the U.S. once word got around about his tactics.... control, hit first, hit hard, hit several times.

I'm not saying it's bad advice for a fight, it's not. It seems on the edge as far as the enforcement of law goes.

And ironically self defense.

 

[Paul_D]

Question about the Thompson post on pre-emptive action.

He got that attitude just working the door at clubs? I don't know the guy's history, is why I'm asking. Ive watched his fence videos, heard him speak in the videos. He's a good presenter, but I think he'd be arrested in the U.S. once word got around about his tactics.... control, hit first, hit hard, hit several times.

I'm not saying it's bad advice for a fight, it's not. It seems on the edge as far as the enforcement of law goes.

I can't speak about US law, but pre emptive striking is legal in the UK.

 

[Paul_D]

For the same reason I don't separate Texans and Americans as 2 completely separate entitys.

As much as the Texans would want you to believe that is a thing.

I guess it depends, like most things, on your definition (of fighting) as well?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Interesting idea. If correct, it would explain both the increased range and the notion of "one strike, one kill" that lead the way to point tournaments and eventually to tippy tippy tag from out of range. I wonder if there are any contemporary sources to confirm the notion?

That would explain why so often I find people sparring from what seems "out-of-range". I'm able to move back a small amount and evade their strikes enough to keep them off their strategy. If their distancing (ma-ai from my discussion with JP in this thread) is influenced by sword work, that would be a reasonable conclusion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are only so many different words available to describe so many different things. I've had a thought, so I'm goihng to left-turn this, specifically for you, Gerry, due to the mai ai thing.

And still, even using the same language, we get into problems with people using our same language. I suppose we can call what we Mericans (a omitted on purpose) use, as compared with the U.K., or the Austrailians.

I like those neighborly kinds of bad guys, the kinds who rather freely offer up their limbs. Problem is, they want them right back and that ain't right.

Here's a thing we do for kata practice, which makes sense to me. Think a guy coming at you right side forward, striking at you with his right hand, his target your head/neck zone. It really matters very little "how" he's striking at the instant when he's trying to make contact, except for some potential circular/torque entry (haymaker or hook punch vs a straight), which is easy to learn to deal with. Uppercuts are worse for him, just like they are worse for you if he makes contact (the risk/reward thing).

So for kata practice, as long as you are aware of, and can deal with, the different ways that the strike can come in... all such strikes terminate in the same general area... which is about the size of a basketball. The human arm only works in a set, specific way, so the arm is actually in a much more limited area of space. Give that some thought. (I know, you need to be able to judge where a guy is aiming. That comes with time. It's been my experience that it's almost instinctive, the knowing "where" but the knowing "how" to deal with it is not.)

So, now I generally work with kata assuming two strike zones, because of the staggeringly high probability that someone is going to try to strike you in the head/neck vs the arm/shoulder... and likewise, the ribs/belly vs. the hips/leg. I'm talking about hands here, keep in mind. Kicks are a different paradigm.

As soon as you've identified these three things, you can pre-emptively move to where you need to go: 1) bad guy; 2) bad guy going to attack; and 3) Bad guy going to attack my head with his right hand. Boom, off line, out of his way and his swing either misses or it goes intot he zone where you predicted it would go.

Again. Way easier for me to type than for people to get, but do-able. The problems faced is the intentional avoidance of "real" attacks coming in... not even full-power/full-speed stuff, just a variation from the prototypical stylized aikido kata attacks. I'm usually talking to my people about that all the time they're in mid-kata. Sometimes to drive home the point that it works, I'll have uke change the attack to be a wiled swing. Sometimes toss a knife in there to see what happens when uke has a blade. Talk about shortening up motions... goodness.

There are definitely opportunities to enter on a strike. What I'm referring to is when the entry is meant to catch the arm almost on the backswing. So, with your round attack example, it would catch that arm far enough back that the elbow would be near or behind the plane of the body. That's an unlikely position to get to by decision, unless they wind up like a major league pitcher. In most cases, getting in on a strike that early is simply lucky timing, or a bad decision that turned out well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So for blending put simply. I dont forget my ability to box while grappling on the ground.

I also dont box then wrestle as to wrestle well you really need to punch people. So you I do both at once. Punch to get armlocks. Get armlocks to punch.

That's a different interaction than between two grappling styles (like Judo and Aikido). What you're talking about is more inline with the integration of my striking and my grappling (both primarily from NGA).

 

[drop bear]

I guess it depends, like most things, on your definition (of fighting) as well?

A definition of fighting is a manufactured idea. I can punch you exactly the same way in sport, fighting or self defence. And the result will be pretty much the same.

The idea that self defence doesn't aply to fighting doesn't aply to sport is a very limited way to to view things. And all I would have to do is find one overlap and it would prove that idea false.

This is because your destinction does not change reality. Reality should effect the distinction.

 

[drop bear]

That's a different interaction than between two grappling styles (like Judo and Aikido). What you're talking about is more inline with the integration of my striking and my grappling (both primarily from NGA).

Ok why would incorporating one goup of things be blending. And incorporating another group of things not be blending?

 

[drop bear]

That would explain why so often I find people sparring from what seems "out-of-range". I'm able to move back a small amount and evade their strikes enough to keep them off their strategy. If their distancing (ma-ai from my discussion with JP in this thread) is influenced by sword work, that would be a reasonable conclusion.

Mostly it is because people dont want to be hit.

I have seen street fights like that where both parties stand five feet away and punch the crap out of the air in front of them.

You know what. Every time someone says their stuff is validated by the street. I am going to put that video up.

 

[Paul_D]

A definition of fighting is a manufactured idea. I can punch you exactly the same way in sport, fighting or self defence. And the result will be pretty much the same.

The idea that self defence doesn't aply to fighting doesn't aply to sport is a very limited way to to view things. And all I would have to do is find one overlap and it would prove that idea false.

This is because your destinction does not change reality. Reality should effect the distinction.

A good punch is always a good punch, but just as there are areas that overlap, there are areas that do not.

 

[drop bear]

A good punch is always a good punch, but just as there are areas that overlap, there are areas that do not.

Ok. But re read your post. "Nothing to do with fighting."

Suggests there is no overlap.

If there are distinctions you need to be specific.

 

[Paul_D]

Ok. But re read your post. "Nothing to do with fighting."

Suggests there is no overlap.

If there are distinctions you need to be specific.

To be specific would take more space than is allowed in a MT forum post. However the biggest difference is made for us by the law. Fighting in the street is illegal. Self defence is not. If you agree to step outside and settle an argument by fighting in the street then that has nothing to do with SD.

 

[drop bear]

To be specific would take more space than is allowed in a MT forum post. However the biggest difference is made for us by the law. Fighting in the street is illegal. Self defence is not. If you agree to step outside and settle an argument by fighting in the street then that has nothing to do with SD.

Ok. So you wouldnt see the advantage in preemptively hitting someone in a street fight but you would in self defence?

 

[Paul_D]

Ok. So you wouldnt see the advantage in preemptively hitting someone in a street fight but you would in self defence?

How do you strike preemptively if you square off 5-6 feet apart in a fighting stance?

Unless you sucker punch him as you both walk outside, but then that's not a fight, that's assault. It would /could however give you the advantage of ending it then and there, in the same way that a pre-emptive strike in SD would/could.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A definition of fighting is a manufactured idea. I can punch you exactly the same way in sport, fighting or self defence. And the result will be pretty much the same.

The idea that self defence doesn't aply to fighting doesn't aply to sport is a very limited way to to view things. And all I would have to do is find one overlap and it would prove that idea false.

This is because your destinction does not change reality. Reality should effect the distinction.

A definition of fighting is not a "manufactured idea". Words have definitions, and it can be helpful to clarify what definition is being used, since there are often multiple options, even if we stick to the dictionary (which is a record of common usage, not an arbiter of correct usage).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok why would incorporating one goup of things be blending. And incorporating another group of things not be blending?

It's not that one "is" blending and the other "isn't". It's that, in my view, one of them requires blending (to work out conflicts between opposing principles), while the other doesn't (at least, not much). To incorporate Shotokan Karate with Aikido would take some serious smoothing out and finding the right compromises and choices.

 

[Steve]

A definition of fighting is not a "manufactured idea". Words have definitions, and it can be helpful to clarify what definition is being used, since there are often multiple options, even if we stick to the dictionary (which is a record of common usage, not an arbiter of correct usage).

This is true, but often the meaning of a word is opportunistic. Words legitimately have formal definitions, informal definitions, and connotations. There are also sometimes regional or national differences in meaning.

Around here, you will find that the meaning of a word is fluid, and even people whom I believe have a very concrete definition in mind will shuck and jive when convenient. Some words and phrases are more susceptible to this than others.

I believe the following words and phrases are functionally meaningless, beyond very, very broad, sweeping generalization. While they may be well defined, they are so often misapplied they typically do nothing but cause arguments about what they mean, effectively derailing whatever thread in which they appear.

Self Defense
Fight / Fighting
Traditional Martial Art
Sparring
Karate
Effective
Street fight
The street

The following terms are what I consider more settled, even if they do sometimes cause confusion:

Mixed Martial Art(s)
Martial Artist
Grappling
Striking
Choke / Strangle

I'm sure I could think of many more, but these were off the top of my head.

 

[Martial D]

Self defense and a street fight are the same damn thing. To make them distinct you need to put some unrealistic qualifiers on what 'street fight means', such as..you are only street fighting if you start it, its only a street fight if it goes X amount of time, its only a street fight if both people want to fight, its only a street fight if it starts with a square off, etc.

None of the above are true. If someone attacks you, and you use a 'self defense technique' you have engaged in combat, ie a fight, which if it isn't in the gym..is a street fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Mostly it is because people dont want to be hit.

I have seen street fights like that where both parties stand five feet away and punch the crap out of the air in front of them.

You know what. Every time someone says their stuff is validated by the street. I am going to put that video up.

That's likely part of it, though the distance is held differently. Those folks avoiding getting hit typically keep their weight near the back heel (pretty easy to finish that structure). The folks I'm talking about are well-balanced, but working from a range that doesn't leave much room for error. They can strike with power, but not if you move just a bit off. It feels (to me) like they are working at the extreme range of their power, even when they are working on a static target (no chance of getting hit).