Aikido hate

[Steve]

That would fit with one common definition of aiki. The definition I use is that it's where there isn't any resistance. Thus, when there is resistance, we're not doing "aiki" anymore - we're using other principles (leverage, structure, etc.). Those other principles are also used in aiki situations, as well, but are supplemented by finding that void where there isn't any resistance. That's why I say that resistance removes most aiki opportunities - where there's resistance, it's no longer "aiki" as I define it.

I have to admit I've never been happy with my ability to explain aiki in words. Students get it pretty quickly because they feel what an aiki technique does. They get to compare that to what I refer to as "Judo-style" techniques (usually the same techniques, just executed with emphasis on different areas).

The best I could explain it with something that I understand within your area, Steve, would be to talk about working against someone who has mount. If you go to bridge-and-roll (the term I know for it), that can be done against resistance by neutralizing their structure. In simple terms (so I don't get deeper than my own understanding), you can trap arms and bind them to you, using structure to prevent their knees from rising, lock their feet down with your hooks, and execute the technique. All of that can be done with timing, even against someone who resists, to some extent. Of course, if you are significantly stronger, you can go for whatever your favorite set of traps, etc. are to get them into position, muscling through their resistance. But you probably wouldn't. You'd probably go for whichever variation of the bridge-and-roll they'd set themselves up for, which would require the least muscling, and execute that one. That's what I refer to as "Judo style" (just to differentiate it from "aiki"). It's clean and efficient, and uses good mechanics and principles to get the job done.

The only difference between that and an aiki version of the same technique would be feeling the moment when they've committed some weight where they really shouldn't, when trapping the arm requires no real effort because they don't have structure already, and bridging will take almost no more force than it would without them there, because the trap leads them to start falling forward. And so on, until you end up with that super-easy bridge-and-roll, like they actually rolled off for you.

I've never experienced that with bridge-and-roll (I'm pretty workmanlike on the ground, and not very aiki), but skilled folks probably have. It's much easier to find when standing, because there are so many more ways to get people into it. A small shift in structure can take people way off their standing base. If it's done with good timing and feel, it leads right into the aiki versions of techniques. Of course, if they don't end up in a good place for the aiki version, we go to something else. It might be an aiki version of another technique (if they avoid one by pulling back, they probably walked into another), or it might be a non-aiki ("Judo-style") version of the original technique. Just like selecting the right response from under mount to escape, we have to select the right response for what they feed us when standing. Aiki techniques don't preclude the leverage/lead-based stuff, they supplement them.

I think you owe it to yourself to roll with an elite level BJJ black belt. It will blow your mind, my friend. Seriously. It's exactly what you describe. techniques become effortless when they are executed correctly. I've swept guys that weigh over 300 lbs effortlessly because I could feel the moment they committed their weight, just as you described.

A BJJ black belt, who also is a black belt in aikido, suggests (paraphrasing) that the difference between purple and brown is that a purple belt can identify these opportunities while a brown belt will begin to create them.

 

[Tames D]

And yeah, Steven seagal is a horrible representative for aikido.

I'm interested to know why you think this? Are you saying his Aikido sucks? Or are you referring to his public persona? I'm asking because I don't train in Aikido, and I don't think you do either.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm interested to know why you think this? Are you saying his Aikido sucks? Or are you referring to his public persona? I'm asking because I don't train in Aikido, and I don't think you do either.

Other than the fact that he is an arrogant walrus and a wife beater?

 

[Psilent Knight]

I think that, like literally every other skill learned by human beings, application matters. Competition produces the most consistent, most efficient results.

I agree with you that application matters. But I disagree with you that competition is what produces the most consistent and efficient results. What is necessary for any application of a martial art to be effective is for the practitioners of that art be pressure tested and competition is not the only means of doing that. In my opinion it is not the best means of doing so either.

When people say, "it's the person, not the style," I disagree. If it takes an exceptional person to make a style work, then the style is flawed. It is entirely the training model. If the training model is effective, any able bodied person will be successful. And nonsense won't survive.

I disagree with this as well. It IS the person and not the style. Some people are good at competing but don't have what it takes to take care of business where it really counts outside of the sporting arena. Just because a person has racked up a closet full of trophies does not mean that they really know how to fight where there are no padded cages, referees and rules.

Also, we see it all the time in mma, bjj, Judo, muay Thai and knockdown karate competitions where some people WIN while others LOSE. But it's the same style that is fought under the same rules. This makes it obvious to me that it IS the person and not the style. You said "If it takes an exceptional person to make a style work, then the style is flawed". By that argument that means the losses that Kazushi Sakuraba handed to all of those bjj stylists in PRIDE FC proves that the style of grappling known as Brazilian Jiujitsu is flawed. Please think about that my friend.

Aikido trained like BJJ or boxing could be very effective.

I agree, Aikido trained like BJJ or boxing can be very effective. I just don't agree that it's the most effective, let alone the only method of pressure testing.

There are competitive branches of Aikido.

Wow! I NEVER knew that! I just learned something new today.

The problem is that those competitive branches end up looking like bad Judo in practice. Thus you have to ask yourself why you're simply not doing Judo instead?

This makes a whole lot of sense. I had said earlier that I think Aikido can be a great art of combined with boxing or kickboxing. To elaborate on that a little bit I think Aikido could be effective if the Aikidoist fought offensively instead of defensively and make use of the strikes from boxing or kickboxing to aid in the entry into CQC use the jointlocking attacks for which it is known. But because it will be used as an offensive art instead of waiting for an attack and attempt to use aiki it WILL look more like Judo than Aikido.

I would also like to add that beyond the spiritual and Ki demonstrations, demonstrations such as this;

.....doesn't help the situation.

You're right. That DOES NOT help at all. Stuff like this is all but inviting all of the mockery that gets thrown their way.

Take Care and Good Night Everyone,
Osu!

 

[Steve]

Sure there are other ways to develop skill. You could develop them as a professional. Otherwise, competition is absolutely the best way to,develop,skill.

 

[Ironbear24]

I'm interested to know why you think this? Are you saying his Aikido sucks? Or are you referring to his public persona? I'm asking because I don't train in Aikido, and I don't think you do either.

He acts very preachy about Buddhism and the spiritual enlightenment of aikido yet has made a fortune on movies which glorify violence and a bad temperament.

In general this is why I have always avoided aikido, not because of Steven seagal but anytime a martial arts gets to preachy or spiritual that is a big turn off for me.

I did a few months of tai chi but I didn't stick with it, I needed something with more contact but it did strengthen my foot alot and help me with weight distribution.

 

[Tames D]

Other than the fact that he is an arrogant walrus and a wife beater?

Walrus? Oh now it's all clear. What was I thinking?

 

[Tames D]

I mean when you have people like Joe Rogan invite aikido and tae Kwon do people onto their shows for the sole purpose of telling them their style is ****.

Joe Rogan is a Stand up comic.He should stick to that. I wish Howard Cosell was still alive. I'd like to see those two fight. A couple of "authorities" on fighting, that could never fight

 

[Tames D]

He acts very preachy about Buddhism and the spiritual enlightenment of aikido yet has made a fortune on movies which glorify violence and a bad temperament.

In general this is why I have always avoided aikido, not because of Steven seagal but anytime a martial arts gets to preachy or spiritual that is a big turn off for me.

I did a few months of tai chi but I didn't stick with it, I needed something with more contact but it did strengthen my foot alot and help me with weight distribution.

So not his fighting? His fighting represents Aikido fine? That's what I'm concerned about. I couldn't care less if he wears a bra and panties while training.

 

[Hanzou]

Joe Rogan is a Stand up comic.He should stick to that. I wish Howard Cosell was still alive. I'd like to see those two fight. A couple of "authorities" on fighting, that could never fight

Uh, Joe Rogan has black belts in TKD, Machado Bjj, and 10th Planet Bjj. He's pretty damn legit.

Walrus? Oh now it's all clear. What was I thinking?

Did you miss the wife beater part?

 

[Tames D]

Uh, Joe Rogan has black belts in TKD, Machado Bjj, and 10th Planet Bjj. He's pretty damn legit.


8 year old have BB's. That doesn't mean it's legit. Have you seen him fight?

 

[kuniggety]

Joe Rogan is a Stand up comic.He should stick to that. I wish Howard Cosell was still alive. I'd like to see those two fight. A couple of "authorities" on fighting, that could never fight

As much of a mouth he has, Joe Rogan is an accomplished martial artist who knows his way around a ring. He's an experienced black belt TKD competitor and a 10th Planet BJJ black belt.

I admit that I haven't listened to very much of his stuff but, from what I have seen, his attacks on TMA are more on the way they're trained than the techniques they teach. He makes his money from being unpolitically correct and so pisses off a lot of people.

 

[Tames D]

Uh, Joe Rogan has black belts in TKD, Machado Bjj, and 10th Planet Bjj. He's pretty damn legit.

Uh, 8 year old have BB's. That doesn't mean it's legit. Have you seen him fight?

 

[Tames D]

As much of a mouth he has, Joe Rogan is an accomplished martial artist who knows his way around a ring. He's an experienced black belt TKD competitor and a 10th Planet BJJ black belt.

I admit that I haven't listened to very much of his stuff but, from what I have seen, his attacks on TMA are more on the way they're trained than the techniques they teach. He makes his money from being unpolitically correct and so pisses off a lot of people.

Please post footage of his fights.

 

[Hanzou]

Uh, 8 year old have BB's. That doesn't mean it's legit. Have you seen him fight?

8 year olds don't get Black Belts in Machado or 10th planet Bjj.

He also has some pretty nice kicking skills;

 

[Tames D]

8 year olds don't get Black Belts in Machado or 10th planet Bjj.

Please post footage of his fights.

 

[drop bear]

You are still ignoring the non-aiki portions of what I do. I don't know how I can make it plainer. Take away the aiki opportunities, and I still have tools. They're just not aiki tools. It's actually exactly like that seoi nage clip you posted. The other guy eliminated the standing shoulder throw, so he looked for other options. You really have some odd need for this to be something different. It's not. Aiki techniques are tools. No tool works in every scenario. We have other tools for those scenarios.

Or are you saying we should be able to use our standing shoulder throw no matter what the other guy does?

In which case you are on the same playing field as everybody else.

 

[Hanzou]

Please post footage of his fights.

 

[kuniggety]

Please post footage of his fights.

I don't know the man/follow him around with a camera. Why would I post videos of him fighting? If he was given a BB by both Eddie Bravo (which there is a video of online) and one by Machado for in the gi, then that's all the proof I need that he knows what he's doing. He would pretzel me up in 10 seconds flat.

 

[drop bear]

Also, we see it all the time in mma, bjj, Judo, muay Thai and knockdown karate competitions where some people WIN while others LOSE. But it's the same style that is fought under the same rules. This makes it obvious to me that it IS the person and not the style. You said "If it takes an exceptional person to make a style work, then the style is flawed". By that argument that means the losses that Kazushi Sakuraba handed to all of those bjj stylists in PRIDE FC proves that the style of grappling known as Brazilian Jiujitsu is flawed. Please think about that my friend.

This. Sakuraba proved through competition that BJJ was flawed. And BJJ responded by scrambling like hell to fix those flaws.

BJJ is now a better martial art than it was due to the methodology that we are suggesting makes a martial art better.