Aikido hate

[Gerry Seymour]

You keep thinking this golden opportunity will somehow just come along.

And for some mysterious reason your training partners keep denying you this.

That is not a big surprise.

It is unlikely to happen in a street fight either. The other guy denying you the golden oportunity is pretty much half of fighting.

There it is again. You're assuming we just wait for it. In NGA, we use strikes and other tools unless and until the aiki openings show up. And they do, far more often than you seem to think. Beginners make those mistakes all the time, often when they try to stop someone more experienced from doing a technique. And I have good reports from police officers I trained under and alongside that those opportunities show up fairly reliably even with people who are resisting.

 

[Tez3]

They aren't fanboys if they are doing it.

I mean is Joe Rogan a fan boy then?

Yes, one of the worst.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, one of the worst.

Agreed. Actually doing something doesn't preclude someone also being a fanboy.

 

[Steve]

Agreed. Actually doing something doesn't preclude someone also being a fanboy.

We should remember that Rogan is a company guy, he owes much to the UFC and MMA.

 

[Psilent Knight]

First off, I think Aikido is an awesome martial art. Secondly, I am of the opinion that every martial art can be effective if it is trained the right way, including Aikido. In fact, I have always held the viewpoint that Aikido can be devastating when it is incorporated with boxing or kickboxing.

I think there is a source of unfair criticism and a source of criticism that I think is almost well deserved.

The unfair criticism is that Aikidoka don't participate in sport competitions. I think that's unfair because Aikido is a non sporting, non competitive martial art and I don't agree with the opinion that a martial art should automatically be looked at as being ineffective if the practitioners don't compete.

A source of criticism that I do think is deserved are the demonstrations where the Aikido master supposedly defeats 20 people (who just so happen to be his students and co-demonstraters) while barely touching them, using nothing but his ki and the inability of his students to move him or move one of his arms, etc. Stuff like that.

It's bad enough that some people unfairly criticize Aikido for being non competitive. The mystical demonstrations certainly don't help their case.

My two cents.

Take Care All,
Osu!

 

[Steve]

First off, I think Aikido is an awesome martial art. Secondly, I am of the opinion that every martial art can be effective if it is trained the right way, including Aikido. In fact, I have always held the viewpoint that Aikido can be devastating when it is incorporated with boxing or kickboxing.

I think there is a source of unfair criticism and a source of criticism that I think is almost well deserved.

The unfair criticism is that Aikidoka don't participate in sport competitions. I think that's unfair because Aikido is a non sporting, non competitive martial art and I don't agree with the opinion that a martial art should automatically be looked at as being ineffective if the practitioners don't compete.

A source of criticism that I do think is deserved are the demonstrations where the Aikido master supposedly defeats 20 people (who just so happen to be his students and co-demonstraters) while barely touching them, using nothing but his ki and the inability of his students to move him or move one of his arms, etc. Stuff like that.

It's bad enough that some people unfairly criticize Aikido for being non competitive. The mystical demonstrations certainly don't help their case.

My two cents.

Take Care All,
Osu!

I think that, like literally every other skill learned by human beings, application matters. Competition produces the most consistent, most efficient results. When people say, "it's the person, not the style," I disagree. If it takes an exceptional person to make a style work, then the style is flawed. It is entirely the training model. If the training model is effective, any able bodied person will be successful. And nonsense won't survive.

Anybody can learn to play baseball or soccer. Anyone can learn to cook or to drive a car. Anyone can learn BJJ, too. If you train BJJ, going three times per week for two years, you'll be pretty good and likely have your blue belt. Because the training model is sound.

Aikido trained like BJJ or boxing could be very effective.

 

[Andrew Green]

Why does Aikido get so much hate?

"Aikido" really doesn't.

The trouble in all these things is any art is situational. Aikido in MMA is going to be a disaster. So for that purpose, it's a terrible art. Same as a lot of other arts, put in a different context they aren't very good.

Even MMA gets it, there are a lot of boxers who will tell you MMA sucks because there boxing is terrible by boxing standards. BJJ sucks in wrestling because guys keep pinning themselves. Wrestling sucks in BJJ because guys keep giving up their back and neck.

Now, you will get some people that "hate" a art because it doesn't fit their interests. So what? people hate hockey, soccer, football, nascar, golf, etc. as well. People hate their favourite sports teams rivals. I doubt anyone loses much sleep over it though.

You will also get some arguments when someone makes ridiculous claims... like a Aikido guy claiming he could Aikido his way through any pro MMA fighter easily, but his pacifistic nature keeps him from engaging in sport combat. Most are going to just ignore those claims though... except online where being argumentative is second nature to most.

Don't worry about it, some people hate rap music, others hate country, some hate Nickleback and everyone hates Beiber. It's fine, do what you want and have fun. The people you are going to actually be training with are obviously going to also enjoy whatever it is you do.

 

[Steve]

"Aikido" really doesn't.

The trouble in all these things is any art is situational. Aikido in MMA is going to be a disaster. So for that purpose, it's a terrible art. Same as a lot of other arts, put in a different context they aren't very good.

Even MMA gets it, there are a lot of boxers who will tell you MMA sucks because there boxing is terrible by boxing standards. BJJ sucks in wrestling because guys keep pinning themselves. Wrestling sucks in BJJ because guys keep giving up their back and neck.

Now, you will get some people that "hate" a art because it doesn't fit their interests. So what? people hate hockey, soccer, football, nascar, golf, etc. as well. People hate their favourite sports teams rivals. I doubt anyone loses much sleep over it though.

You will also get some arguments when someone makes ridiculous claims... like a Aikido guy claiming he could Aikido his way through any pro MMA fighter easily, but his pacifistic nature keeps him from engaging in sport combat. Most are going to just ignore those claims though... except online where being argumentative is second nature to most.

Don't worry about it, some people hate rap music, others hate country, some hate Nickleback and everyone hates Beiber. It's fine, do what you want and have fun. The people you are going to actually be training with are obviously going to also enjoy whatever it is you do.

Everyone hates nickelback. Come on.

 

[drop bear]

There it is again. You're assuming we just wait for it. In NGA, we use strikes and other tools unless and until the aiki openings show up. And they do, far more often than you seem to think. Beginners make those mistakes all the time, often when they try to stop someone more experienced from doing a technique. And I have good reports from police officers I trained under and alongside that those opportunities show up fairly reliably even with people who are resisting.

I assume it because you basically say it.

Any skilled Aikidoka, for instance, can nullify most Aikido techniques. So, have tow skilled Aikidoka competing, and you have to stop looking for the "aiki" in your Aikido, and it starts to look more like Judo competitions. The same would be true for the Aikidokafacing anyone experienced in grappling (standing or ground)

There is a difference between being outclassed by a better martial artist and completely shut down because someone knows the basic fundimentals. You are missing an element that makes akido work against a competent guy. Or you wouldn't get shut down in that manner. Instead of finding that element you are hoping you won't need it.

All martial arts use the concept of aki. All martial arts will operate in a way that denies you aki.

Uou say you are not relying on this golden opportunity while suggesting that while this opportunity doesn't occur in training it will probably happen in a fight.

 

[Ironbear24]

Yes, one of the worst.

My respect for you was already high but now it's even higher.

We should remember that Rogan is a company guy, he owes much to the UFC and MMA.

That's a great point.

Everyone hates nickelback. Come on.

Same with tez. My respect for you both just skyrocketed now. Nickelback is a crime against ears. I was honestly thinking you and Tez were going to try and defend Rogan here but now that I see you can objectively judge the obvious. My respect for you both has grown.

And yeah, Steven seagal is a horrible representative for aikido.

 

[Hanzou]

The unfair criticism is that Aikidoka don't participate in sport competitions. I think that's unfair because Aikido is a non sporting, non competitive martial art and I don't agree with the opinion that a martial art should automatically be looked at as being ineffective if the practitioners don't compete.

There are competitive branches of Aikido. The problem is that those competitive branches end up looking like bad Judo in practice. Thus you have to ask yourself why you're simply not doing Judo instead?

I would also like to add that beyond the spiritual and Ki demonstrations, demonstrations such as this;

.....doesn't help the situation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think that, like literally every other skill learned by human beings, application matters. Competition produces the most consistent, most efficient results. When people say, "it's the person, not the style," I disagree. If it takes an exceptional person to make a style work, then the style is flawed. It is entirely the training model. If the training model is effective, any able bodied person will be successful. And nonsense won't survive.

Anybody can learn to play baseball or soccer. Anyone can learn to cook or to drive a car. Anyone can learn BJJ, too. If you train BJJ, going three times per week for two years, you'll be pretty good and likely have your blue belt. Because the training model is sound.

Aikido trained like BJJ or boxing could be very effective.

Aikido trained fully against skilled resistance loses most of the aiki. It's like trying to use road racing to train driving skill. It actually precludes certain driving skills. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not the right training model for everything.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I assume it because you basically say it.

Any skilled Aikidoka, for instance, can nullify most Aikido techniques. So, have tow skilled Aikidoka competing, and you have to stop looking for the "aiki" in your Aikido, and it starts to look more like Judo competitions. The same would be true for the Aikidokafacing anyone experienced in grappling (standing or ground)

There is a difference between being outclassed by a better martial artist and completely shut down because someone knows the basic fundimentals. You are missing an element that makes akido work against a competent guy. Or you wouldn't get shut down in that manner. Instead of finding that element you are hoping you won't need it.

All martial arts use the concept of aki. All martial arts will operate in a way that denies you aki.

Uou say you are not relying on this golden opportunity while suggesting that while this opportunity doesn't occur in training it will probably happen in a fight.

So you think that me saying a skilled aikidoka can eliminate aiki opportunities means we wait for them and do nothing in the interim? That's about as non sequitur as it gets, DB.

Here's the skinny: Aikido that doesn't use aiki looks more like Judo. About a third of what I do isn't pure-aiki - it uses principles very similar to Judo. A third is more like Shotokan Karate. The other third is the aiki principles. You really seem to need me to be stuck on aiki, and only use stuff that works on that principle. Unfortunately for you, that's not the case. Stop projecting your expectations onto what I say and trying to make what I do something you want it to be so you can bash it. If you want to debate what I actually do, that's fine. But cut it out with the f'in strawmen already. We've had this discussion several times, and you always spend time telling me what I train and teach, without any apparent understanding of what the hell I actually train and teach. You've got more brains than this ****.

 

[Andrew Green]

.....doesn't help the situation.

It's funny... there are hints in there that someone watched a video of how to do things properly... but then decided they should be "improved" to fit their own ideas and made it useless.

Deliberate, neat, tidy, clean, well practiced... and yet useless.

I feel like I should counter with a video of how to defeat Aikido. I get a guy to run across the mat and try to bonk me on the top of the head and show various defences. I think that would be as fair of a representation of Aikido "attack" as this is of a closed guard right?

 

[Steve]

Aikido trained fully against skilled resistance loses most of the aiki. It's like trying to use road racing to train driving skill. It actually precludes certain driving skills. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not the right training model for everything.

i may not understand what you mean by aiki, but i think so, based in your previous explanations.

if you've ever rolled with an elite level black belt in BJJ I think you'd get a taste of it. The difference, I believe, is that they can do it against resistance because of how they train. It moves beyond compliance. I would expect any style that is trained for results would have the same.

 

[Steve]

It's funny... there are hints in there that someone watched a video of how to do things properly... but then decided they should be "improved" to fit their own ideas and made it useless.

Deliberate, neat, tidy, clean, well practiced... and yet useless.

I feel like I should counter with a video of how to defeat Aikido. I get a guy to run across the mat and try to bonk me on the top of the head and show various defences. I think that would be as fair of a representation of Aikido "attack" as this is of a closed guard right?

I thought aikidoka never attack. I call my defense against aikido, "standing there."

 

[drop bear]

So you think that me saying a skilled aikidoka can eliminate aiki opportunities means we wait for them and do nothing in the interim? That's about as non sequitur as it gets, DB.

Here's the skinny: Aikido that doesn't use aiki looks more like Judo. About a third of what I do isn't pure-aiki - it uses principles very similar to Judo. A third is more like Shotokan Karate. The other third is the aiki principles. You really seem to need me to be stuck on aiki, and only use stuff that works on that principle. Unfortunately for you, that's not the case. Stop projecting your expectations onto what I say and trying to make what I do something you want it to be so you can bash it. If you want to debate what I actually do, that's fine. But cut it out with the f'in strawmen already. We've had this discussion several times, and you always spend time telling me what I train and teach, without any apparent understanding of what the hell I actually train and teach. You've got more brains than this ****.

Yes it is like saying a skilled BJJ er can eliminate submission attempts. Or a skilled boxer can eliminate punch attacks. So I guess we cant put two skilled martial artists together or it would just stalemate.

And somehow this is not the fault of akido. But the rest of the universe conspiring to make training akido in a resisted manner with top practitioners impossible.

If you create aki opportunities better than the other guy can eliminate them you can apply your martial arts more effectively. All martial artists do this. This is not an akido principle. It is just good technique.

Akido is the only art that claims what you are claiming though.

Akido that uses aki correctly looks like judo. Because they are creating the circumstances that allow them to use aki.

This is also why judo looks like judo.Because they are creating the circumstances that allow them to use aki.

In fighting this is a pretty solid principle.

I am not projecting. You keep identifying fundimental issues with your training and then trying to make excuses as to why you can't fix them. You raised aki. you still defend this idea that the other guy can stop aki in training.

So yes striking sets people up for takedowns. Everybody who strikes and does take downs employs this. This is how sweeps generally work. You apply pressue they react and create aki.

Aki does work against trained guys in a competition setting.

Aki isnt the problem.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i may not understand what you mean by aiki, but i think so, based in your previous explanations.

if you've ever rolled with an elite level black belt in BJJ I think you'd get a taste of it. The difference, I believe, is that they can do it against resistance because of how they train. It moves beyond compliance. I would expect any style that is trained for results would have the same.

That would fit with one common definition of aiki. The definition I use is that it's where there isn't any resistance. Thus, when there is resistance, we're not doing "aiki" anymore - we're using other principles (leverage, structure, etc.). Those other principles are also used in aiki situations, as well, but are supplemented by finding that void where there isn't any resistance. That's why I say that resistance removes most aiki opportunities - where there's resistance, it's no longer "aiki" as I define it.

I have to admit I've never been happy with my ability to explain aiki in words. Students get it pretty quickly because they feel what an aiki technique does. They get to compare that to what I refer to as "Judo-style" techniques (usually the same techniques, just executed with emphasis on different areas).

The best I could explain it with something that I understand within your area, Steve, would be to talk about working against someone who has mount. If you go to bridge-and-roll (the term I know for it), that can be done against resistance by neutralizing their structure. In simple terms (so I don't get deeper than my own understanding), you can trap arms and bind them to you, using structure to prevent their knees from rising, lock their feet down with your hooks, and execute the technique. All of that can be done with timing, even against someone who resists, to some extent. Of course, if you are significantly stronger, you can go for whatever your favorite set of traps, etc. are to get them into position, muscling through their resistance. But you probably wouldn't. You'd probably go for whichever variation of the bridge-and-roll they'd set themselves up for, which would require the least muscling, and execute that one. That's what I refer to as "Judo style" (just to differentiate it from "aiki"). It's clean and efficient, and uses good mechanics and principles to get the job done.

The only difference between that and an aiki version of the same technique would be feeling the moment when they've committed some weight where they really shouldn't, when trapping the arm requires no real effort because they don't have structure already, and bridging will take almost no more force than it would without them there, because the trap leads them to start falling forward. And so on, until you end up with that super-easy bridge-and-roll, like they actually rolled off for you.

I've never experienced that with bridge-and-roll (I'm pretty workmanlike on the ground, and not very aiki), but skilled folks probably have. It's much easier to find when standing, because there are so many more ways to get people into it. A small shift in structure can take people way off their standing base. If it's done with good timing and feel, it leads right into the aiki versions of techniques. Of course, if they don't end up in a good place for the aiki version, we go to something else. It might be an aiki version of another technique (if they avoid one by pulling back, they probably walked into another), or it might be a non-aiki ("Judo-style") version of the original technique. Just like selecting the right response from under mount to escape, we have to select the right response for what they feed us when standing. Aiki techniques don't preclude the leverage/lead-based stuff, they supplement them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I thought aikidoka never attack. I call my defense against aikido, "standing there."

That's something some will teach about Aikido. I will say it's impossible to attack with "aiki", because that's a response to the other person's movement and weight. But I can certainly use strikes and non-aiki grappling to attack. Not my first choice, but an option.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes it is like saying a skilled BJJ er can eliminate submission attempts. Or a skilled boxer can eliminate punch attacks. So I guess we cant put two skilled martial artists together or it would just stalemate.

And somehow this is not the fault of akido. But the rest of the universe conspiring to make training akido in a resisted manner with top practitioners impossible.

If you create aki opportunities better than the other guy can eliminate them you can apply your martial arts more effectively. All martial artists do this. This is not an akido principle. It is just good technique.

Akido is the only art that claims what you are claiming though.

Akido that uses aki correctly looks like judo. Because they are creating the circumstances that allow them to use aki.

This is also why judo looks like judo.Because they are creating the circumstances that allow them to use aki.

In fighting this is a pretty solid principle.

I am not projecting. You keep identifying fundimental issues with your training and then trying to make excuses as to why you can't fix them. You raised aki. you still defend this idea that the other guy can stop aki in training.

So yes striking sets people up for takedowns. Everybody who strikes and does take downs employs this. This is how sweeps generally work. You apply pressue they react and create aki.

Aki does work against trained guys in a competition setting.

Aki isnt the problem.

You are still ignoring the non-aiki portions of what I do. I don't know how I can make it plainer. Take away the aiki opportunities, and I still have tools. They're just not aiki tools. It's actually exactly like that seoi nage clip you posted. The other guy eliminated the standing shoulder throw, so he looked for other options. You really have some odd need for this to be something different. It's not. Aiki techniques are tools. No tool works in every scenario. We have other tools for those scenarios.

Or are you saying we should be able to use our standing shoulder throw no matter what the other guy does?