Aiki and the streets?

[MA-Caver]

Hey aiki guys, I have not been in aiki for long and I have a question that I think I may have an answer to but would like other opinions.
Is aiki street effective? In class your partner does not resist the technique but what if you try the technique on someone who resists the technique? I think that if a guy resist your technique you should hit him, Hitting sounds more like something for the streets, I don't think if you just do a soft aiki technique on the street that it will be effective.

There are better answers than mine in previous posts... I've only learned a little Aiki but know that it is a very effective art when punching/kicking isn't what you want to do. But I would think about how aiki is designed and what effect it would have if someone resisted. Think broken bones and other highly effective damages to joints, ligaments and so forth. A person would naturally go with it as instinctively they are at that moment of awareness that their arm is about to get broken. Yeah, I'd say it's very effective for the streets and in closed quarters like a public restroom or bar or even in the home.

Another question, how do you know what is effective on the street and what is not? A long time ago in japan the samurai's would try a technique on the battlefield and if it was not effective than they would not do that techniqe again in battle or practice.

Think also this... if the samurai survived a failed technique long enough to impliment an effective one then yeah they'd learn not to do that in battle.

What is the difference in effective techniques than and now? does any one really know? I am not sure but if you have any information that will be helpful please let me know it.
Later, Eric

With ANY Martial Art... the techniques/forms etc. are only as effective as the user.

:asian:

 

[RichK]

My first Aikido instructor was only about 5". I am 6' (back then about 225pds). He would constantly pull me away from practicing a technique and tell me to attack a certain way and then resist. It was always interesting how much pain I was in when I walked or crawled away after thinking I was gonna have some fun with him and overpower him. So yes, constant redirection is what you are always on the look out for.

 

[CrankyDragon]

I invested 4 months in Aikido myself, and have since changed to BJJ. My personal observation is for Aiki to be effective, you must be very fast, and very good. I expect at least 2 years invested before you can be at a level to defend yourself well against an average encounter.

Put a little BJJ, Judo and MTB together, and you can be on top of the game in 8 months, that is street encounter. Another well trained martial artist, takes a life time.

Im focusing on BJJ, but our school is MMA, so theres also classes in Judo and MTB, I hope to participate in those also from time to time. It will feel good to be sparing again!! Thats where you really see how things work with resistance and varying partners!!

And since theres is usually very little or no resistance in Aikido, my complaint is "how will I ever know if it works, or how it will work with resistance??". If your school doesnt do resistance, then you never will know. For me, I *need* to know.

My thoughts...
Andrew

 

[Yari]

....., you must be very fast, and very good. ........
My thoughts...
Andrew

I believe you don't have to be fast, since it's a question of timing and position. If you position yourself right, uke will always be "behind" you in timing, and you will feel (as uke) that tori is fast. Whne you get your timing correct you will start to feel that uke is slow and you have all the time in the world.

So usally the need to be fast is a picture of not understanding the corret timing and position.

/Yari

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Hey aiki guys, I have not been in aiki for long and I have a question that I think I may have an answer to but would like other opinions.

Is aiki street effective? In class your partner does not resist the technique but what if you try the technique on someone who resists the technique? I think that if a guy resist your technique you should hit him, Hitting sounds more like something for the streets, I don't think if you just do a soft aiki technique on the street that it will be effective.

I agree with you that sometimes we must distract the opponent before applying any Aiki waza to him/her. In most of the old Jujutsu schools, many times the technique calls for striking the opponent first as a distraction before going to actual lock/throws.

I learn some Hakko-ryu Jujutsu and it's based on Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu. From what I have experienced none of the techniques are soft, they are all painful. Especially the wrist locks.

Resisting the techniques? That's depend on how the resisting are done.

I have a guy who is very strong, 200 pounds plus, with iron-like powerful grips. When he grabs a wrist or a lapel, he will absolutely refuse to budge unless a proper Aiki Kuzushi technique is applied. I don't consider this a serious resistance, in fact this is very good for your training.

Maybe you mean resistance by Trying to be a macho man and refuses to tap out when a wristlock is properly set? That would lead into injuries

Or, how about this..Let's say your partner grab your wrist, and as soon as you try to make your move, he releases the wrist grab and slap your face with the other hand. This is not resistance, this is flat-out disrespectful.

In any case, it is always better to learn the techniques in proper form (no resistance) first, then gradually add more power to it, until you get into the point where you will absolutely not budge unless you are properly unbalanced.

So, tell your partner to grab slowly and loosely at first, then gradually at strength.

Also in striking techniques, ask the partner to hit slowly at first, then gradually add speed and power until he can hit you full force.

Another question, how do you know what is effective on the street and what is not? A long time ago in japan the samurai's would try a technique on the battlefield and if it was not effective than they would not do that techniqe again in battle or practice.

What is the difference in effective techniques than and now? does any one really know? I am not sure but if you have any information that will be helpful please let me know it.

Later, Eric

Ancient techniques require adaptation to modern situation to ensure full effectiveness.

I am sure that most of the idori (seated) techniques must be adapted to sitting in chair techniques (because most people outside Japan does not practice knee walking), and the tachidori/sword defenses techniques must be adapted to defenses against long pole, iron pipe and baseball bats (nobody carries swords around anymore these days).

other than that, the principles of aiki techniques itself are timeless.. it is applicable in the year 1930, I am sure it is applicable in 2005 and would still be applicable at least until 2010.

ANYWAY, I remember my teacher always told me: it's never about YOU, it's always about your OPPONENT(s), which means, it's all about who you are facing So, no matter how high your skill levels are, if you are fighting with a guy (or many guys) who are better than you, then you are dead

 

[Eric Daniel]

Wow,
I have learned a lot of things just by this post. I lerned the meaning of the term Aiki and aikido. And I learned a lot more. Thanks for all your replies and advise.

Sincerely, Eric Daniel

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

"No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
-Don Gwinn

Well, I thought it was funny.

It is funny, lol.
Here's my story:

I have been doing Muay Thai since I was about 13/14. In 2000/2001, when I started working as a bouncer, I decided that a little stand up grappling would be a nice addition to my skills; I looked around and settled on a reputable Aikido gym. The lady who ran the place was very good; she had pictures on the wall of her at the Olympics, competing in Judo. From what I saw, I was quite impressed. She had no problem launching me around, and I was a pretty big guy back then. Whenever I join a new school, I don't mention that I have practiced Muay Thai for next to forever; I come as I am, and I come in good faith.

A few months into the training, I started noticing "flaws." I kept my mouth shut, dismissing it as being naive in the art--which was true. One day, I heard the instructor tell this elaborate story about her patronizing the bar that I worked at (she didn't know I was working there). She concocted a story about some big, bad, drunken, steroid-freak-boxer-run-a-muck, taking out all the bouncers, and cops, to boot. The story ended with the cops (realizing that she was Aikidoka extra-ordinaire) begging her to take this guy down. She went over and did some Steven Segal chuck-fu and submitted the guy, so the cops could restrain him.

I had to call bulls**t. I asked her when this happened, and got an answer that indicated that this took place while I was working there. Then I revealed that I worked there, and it magically became before then. I got pissed, because I smelled poop. Next, I broke down the way she described submitting the guy, and began questioning it's real-life effectiveness against a "boxer." Smelling blood, and an opportunity to show off, she said: "go ahead, try to punch me." She's lucky I pulled my jab. After realizing that she had no answer to free-combinations, she tried setting combinations, so she would know what I was going to throw. This resulted in my slipping her attempts at submitting me and moving in for a knee/elbow (kao drong/sawk sob), which I also pulled.

When she realized that I was skilled in some form of martial art or another, she simply stated: "I'm not going to spar with you." So, it was all good when she thought she was going to toss some new-kid around for all to see; but when she realized that I had been a training in Muay Thai for about half of my life, suddenly she was too good to demonstrate her techniques.

​

Some will say that she did the right thing. Some will say that should would have ended up hurting me. Well, maybe, but it appeared to be quite the opposite--if there's anything I know it's Muay Thai. In retrospect, however, I wish I wouldn't have done that. Not only was it rude and disrespectful, but I'd actually like to go back and train there now, and I'm simply too ashamed to. That said, it is not in my character to listen to bulls**t. I have frequently run into this problem with various college professors, and it's been a real test of self to hold my tongue. But she was wrong.

Is Aikido effective in the "street?" Against your average idiot, sure. Against a boxer or a Thai boxer; I'm not impressed. It seems like the dynamics are simply different--if that makes any sense. Also, interestingly enough, Steven Segal lived in my area for a while, and actually trained there; although, long before I was ever there. The lady has a bunch of pictures.

I'm sure this will incite riotous rants against me; but that's my experience. Aikido is cool, and I'd love to train in it, but I do also think that there is a lot of hype surrounding its effectiveness under real-life circumstances. I'm sure many will disagree; and I hope that I have not offended you.

AJ :asian:

 

[samurai69]

It is funny, lol.
Here's my story:

I have been doing Muay Thai since I was about 13/14. In 2000/2001, when I started working as a bouncer, I decided that a little stand up grappling would be a nice addition to my skills; I looked around and settled on a reputable Aikido gym. The lady who ran the place was very good; she had pictures on the wall of her at the Olympics, competing in Judo. From what I saw, I was quite impressed. She had no problem launching me around, and I was a pretty big guy back then. Whenever I join a new school, I don't mention that I have practiced Muay Thai for next to forever; I come as I am, and I come in good faith.

A few months into the training, I started noticing "flaws." I kept my mouth shut, dismissing it as being naive in the art--which was true. One day, I heard the instructor tell this elaborate story about her patronizing the bar that I worked at (she didn't know I was working there). She concocted a story about some big, bad, drunken, steroid-freak-boxer-run-a-muck, taking out all the bouncers, and cops, to boot. The story ended with the cops (realizing that she was Aikidoka extra-ordinaire) begging her to take this guy down. She went over and did some Steven Segal chuck-fu and submitted the guy, so the cops could restrain him.

I had to call bulls**t. I asked her when this happened, and got an answer that indicated that this took place while I was working there. Then I revealed that I worked there, and it magically became before then. I got pissed, because I smelled poop. Next, I broke down the way she described submitting the guy, and began questioning it's real-life effectiveness against a "boxer." Smelling blood, and an opportunity to show off, she said: "go ahead, try to punch me." She's lucky I pulled my jab. After realizing that she had no answer to free-combinations, she tried setting combinations, so she would know what I was going to throw. This resulted in my slipping her attempts at submitting me and moving in for a knee/elbow (kao drong/sawk sob), which I also pulled.

When she realized that I was skilled in some form of martial art or another, she simply stated: "I'm not going to spar with you." So, it was all good when she thought she was going to toss some new-kid around for all to see; but when she realized that I had been a training in Muay Thai for about half of my life, suddenly she was too good to demonstrate her techniques.


​

Some will say that she did the right thing. Some will say that should would have ended up hurting me. Well, maybe, but it appeared to be quite the opposite--if there's anything I know it's Muay Thai. In retrospect, however, I wish I wouldn't have done that. Not only was it rude and disrespectful, but I'd actually like to go back and train there now, and I'm simply too ashamed to. That said, it is not in my character to listen to bulls**t. I have frequently run into this problem with various college professors, and it's been a real test of self to hold my tongue. But she was wrong.

Is Aikido effective in the "street?" Against your average idiot, sure. Against a boxer or a Thai boxer; I'm not impressed. It seems like the dynamics are simply different--if that makes any sense. Also, interestingly enough, Steven Segal lived in my area for a while, and actually trained there; although, long before I was ever there. The lady has a bunch of pictures.

I'm sure this will incite riotous rants against me; but that's my experience. Aikido is cool, and I'd love to train in it, but I do also think that there is a lot of hype surrounding its effectiveness under real-life circumstances. I'm sure many will disagree; and I hope that I have not offended you.

AJ :asian:

I have to answer this one........If it was my aikido school, I would ask you to remain after class and then, spa without people around. IMO its just as dis respectfull to humiliate a student....if it becam obvious you knew another MA and i was having trouble against it then I/we could work through it
I have studied aikido for some years (and teach it) i also have studied muay thai and wing chun and some other bits and pieces, using aikido techniques only i am pretty sure i could control and subdue a muay thai fighter in a street combative situation (i am sure i would still get hit a fair bit too).....my aikido would change some (more atemi etc) but it could and would work....of course with the knowledge of muay thai then in a street cobative situation i could and would use a variety of techniques from all the arts i have studied

 

[arnisador]

The after class advice is good. But atemi--going strike-to-strike--against a Thai kickboxer? I don't think that's a good diea. Even using it to get a reaction isn't apt to work here. I'd say, stay at a distance, avoid the clinch and round kicks, until you can get to the outside and pull off a technique.

 

[theletch1]

The after class advice is good. But atemi--going strike-to-strike--against a Thai kickboxer? I don't think that's a good diea. Even using it to get a reaction isn't apt to work here. I'd say, stay at a distance, avoid the clinch and round kicks, until you can get to the outside and pull off a technique.

I'd agree and then I'd say that situations like this are a great example of why people should augment their aikido training with other arts. At the very least you will gain a bit of insight as to what you may face when dealing with someone of another style. With the proper timing and a skill level advanced enough to deal with a planted attacker the basics don't change. This then becomes the age old question "Which style is better?"

As to the situation with the aikido instructor I can see fault with both parties involved. As an aikido instructor she should not have felt the need to embellish or outright lie about defending herself. She should have taken great pride in not having been in any fights at all. As a martial artist trained in another art I feel that you had a responsibility to inform the instructor that you had prior training and even to share you skills with the rest of the aikido-ka so that they could see how a determined/skilled attacker would react to their techniques.

 

[samurai69]

As a martial artist trained in another art I feel that you had a responsibility to inform the instructor that you had prior training and even to share you skills with the rest of the aikido-ka so that they could see how a determined/skilled attacker would react to their techniques.

Thats a good point.....

 

[Eric Daniel]

With ANY Martial Art... the techniques/forms etc. are only as effective as the user.

:asian:

I agree with this statement because if the user knows his stuff, he will take his opponent out but if he does not know his stuff al that well, he might try a technique and it will be ineffective.

 

[dasgregorian]

As I understand it, the Uke doesn't offer resistance so that YOU can learn the technique... up until that point it's not street effective, because once you go up with someone who isn't LETTING you do the technique, the feeling will be very different. However, once you are comfortable with your own knowledge of the technique, it's good to get a friend to spar with you a little just to find situations where you could pull the technique off, then actually try them full speed. Once you get to the point where someone throws a punch, and you can turn that into a trap/grapple/throw, you can build whatever situation you need for whatever technique you want to use.

i.e. like any style... it doesn't start out street effective... but once you can do it full speed, and you can recognize when you can pull it off in a real situation, it becomes 'street effective.'

 

[Yari]

I think I understand what your pointing at, but just to clarify. All styles dont start off with 100% resistance, since that means that your oppenent is better then you, and would know how to work against it.

Any person that has trained just a bit can obstruct(spel?) a newcommers techniques. So your parnter has to work along for you to get the idea.

Were Aikido differs (typically) is in the focus on the "flow" in the technique on all levels of Aikido. To understand and use flow you have to pratice it.

What I think your pointing out, is that many Aikido styles ONLY focus on flow. I belive this is an atvantage but it does have the negativ side that it takes longer to leran and handle yourself selfdefences wise.

/Yari

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

I have to answer this one........If it was my aikido school, I would ask you to remain after class and then, spa without people around. IMO its just as dis respectfull to humiliate a student....if it becam obvious you knew another MA and i was having trouble against it then I/we could work through it
I have studied aikido for some years (and teach it) i also have studied muay thai and wing chun and some other bits and pieces, using aikido techniques only i am pretty sure i could control and subdue a muay thai fighter in a street combative situation (i am sure i would still get hit a fair bit too).....my aikido would change some (more atemi etc) but it could and would work....of course with the knowledge of muay thai then in a street cobative situation i could and would use a variety of techniques from all the arts i have studied

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I spar every weekend (and sometimes during the week), full-contact, round-robin style, in both Muay Thai and boxing, for a total of about 45 minutes. I have sparred with many a martial artist, and have found that few actually have the experience with real-time fighting that one gets in Muay Thai and Boxing. All of Muay Thai and Boxing is sparring; it's built around real-time, real-life application, not theory. Many arts work in theory, but most of the stuff that goes above and beyond basic strikes are simply too low-precentage. I'd have been happy to stick around and spar with her.

AJ

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

I'd agree and then I'd say that situations like this are a great example of why people should augment their aikido training with other arts. At the very least you will gain a bit of insight as to what you may face when dealing with someone of another style. With the proper timing and a skill level advanced enough to deal with a planted attacker the basics don't change. This then becomes the age old question "Which style is better?"

As to the situation with the aikido instructor I can see fault with both parties involved. As an aikido instructor she should not have felt the need to embellish or outright lie about defending herself. She should have taken great pride in not having been in any fights at all. As a martial artist trained in another art I feel that you had a responsibility to inform the instructor that you had prior training and even to share you skills with the rest of the aikido-ka so that they could see how a determined/skilled attacker would react to their techniques.

The reason I don't tell people that I practice Muay Thai, is because the response, in the past, has not been good. The responses range from people belittling Muay Thai as a "ring only" sport, to immediately "testing" me in an attempt to prove that their art is better. Those were not places I went back to. However, I did become acquainted with students from those schools and spent a great deal of time training with them.

I trained one of my EPAK buddies for the sparring portion his 1st brown stripe test. His instructor actually got mad at him for winning. I've seen them spar, it looks like American kickboxing, anyway; where's the harm in training Muay Thai? It seemed like the instructor got mad because his student caught him off-guard. It's hard to relate this stuff without sounding like a jerk, and I apologize for that, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the truth. Muay Thai has not always had the respect it currently holds, remember.

AJ

 

[Connovar]

The training is as important as the technique. There are muliple grappling arts and they all push or pull in one form or another. There are multiple striking arts and they all strike or kick. The issue is the training.

If you are fighting against an opponent on the street you are fighting a fully resisting opponent (unless he is comatose). To learn to fight a fully resistant opponent you need to do it often in practice. There is no way around it.IMO

 

[theletch1]

When a technique is done at street speed there is very little time to become a "full resisting" opponent. One of my classmates commented the other day that whenever he did a particular technique to me it didn't go exactly as he expected it to even though he was doing the tech properly and I was giving him a full speed attack. The instructor pointed out to him that a)I knew what was coming and that b)I'm still compensating for a back injury and am subconciously resisting the technique at exactly the right moment to make the fall easier. The attacker on the street isn't going to know what is coming and since the techniques go WITH the flow of his energy then the "full" resistance everyone seems to be discussing is almost a mute point. If an attacker is able to stop the momentum of the attack then simply change techniques (ura) into something else that will work.

 

[Connovar]

At full speed you can fully resist. Its done all the time in full contact events etc. We are not talking about one person throwing a predetermined attack. We are talking about working with an opponent who is trying to defeat you when you are trying to defeat him. aka "fighting"

 

[theletch1]

At full speed you can fully resist. Its done all the time in full contact events etc. We are not talking about one person throwing a predetermined attack. We are talking about working with an opponent who is trying to defeat you when you are trying to defeat him. aka "fighting"

In a full contact EVENT it is understood that the opponent will have at least some of the same training and be familiar with some of the same techniques which you will be using. The thread was about aikido and the street and my assumption was that we were discussing the run of the mill thug who has no idea that the aikido-ka is allowing the thugs energy to flow freely in order to apply a technique. Sure, if it's a MMA situation then resistance can be applied but I still contend that someone completely untrained in aikido is not going to know when to resist a technique to stop it or even that a technique is being set up.