Aggression in aikido

[kaizasosei]

i also heard this said sometimes. i don't think aikido can ever completely lose its martial aspect. i think mostly because so much of life itself is very martial.
the phenomenon of aiki or aikijutsu could be seen as a kind of spirituality as well as something like bodybuilding and training of economic movements.
this is not a sideeffect of some sort, it is part of the entire subject of aiki and the study of the self.
if anything is a sideeffect, then it would be the combat or rather the violence and destruction that lies latent within the principles of the techniques.





j

 

[theletch1]

i also heard this said sometimes. i don't think aikido can ever completely lose its martial aspect. i think mostly because so much of life itself is very martial.
the phenomenon of aiki or aikijutsu could be seen as a kind of spirituality as well as something like bodybuilding and training of economic movements.
this is not a sideeffect of some sort, it is part of the entire subject of aiki and the study of the self.
if anything is a sideeffect, then it would be the combat or rather the violence and destruction that lies latent within the principles of the techniques.





j

That's very much dependent upon the individual aikido-ka. Some study with the spiritual aspects uppermost in mind and view the martial aspects as a path to the spiritual. Others study with the efficient and effective use of the physical philosophy of aikido uppermost and find the spiritual along the way. I know that I fall into the latter of the two. I began the study of aikido after training in hard styles and with a VERY practical self defense mindset. I have found that the spiritual side of the art has just happened as I've come to better understand how to make the techniques work. That's one of the great things about the art. You just can't make the techniques work. You eventually have to surrender and allow them to work. When you translate that to everyday life you begin to understand the spritual side of the art a little better. It's very much like Xue was saying in his post. The spiritual is intrinsic to the art. If you stick with the art long enough the spiritual will find you.

 

[tempus]

Makes me wonder if I am missing something in my training. I find no spirtuaility in the martial arts nor do I seek it. I strive to perfect my technique and push my body past its limits, so if I am forced into a situation I may survive the alteraction by either standing over my attacker or being able to flee.

I hope that if I am ever in an alteraction I am agressive enough to use what is in my arsenal to survive or protect those around me. Pure rage is bad, but to me agression can be a good thing since it allows one to push pass their limitations.

Just my 2 cents.

-Gary

 

[theletch1]

Gary, I know where you're coming from. The mindset with which you approached your post was the impetus for my original post in this thread. As for the spiritual aspect of the art, well, it's there if you decide to walk that part of the path. For me the spiritual side of the path has more to do with following my own code of honor (bushido if you will) in daily life and trying not to clash with others but attempting to blend with them. Not everyone wants or even needs full spiritual enlightenment for aikido or any other martial art to be effective. Keep in mind that the above is the opinion of one single person and your mileage will vary. There are others here that feel 180 degrees different than I do and that's great. As you move toward the perfection of your technique you will gain self confidence and this changes the way you interact with others. If you start to analyze how you deal with others I bet you'll start to see that you're getting more of the spiritual side than you think. Having the confidence to change the way you deal with others will help build the aggression or concentrated intent that we've been dealing with throughout this thread.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Makes me wonder if I am missing something in my training. I find no spirtuaility in the martial arts nor do I seek it. I strive to perfect my technique and push my body past its limits, so if I am forced into a situation I may survive the alteraction by either standing over my attacker or being able to flee.

I hope that if I am ever in an alteraction I am agressive enough to use what is in my arsenal to survive or protect those around me. Pure rage is bad, but to me agression can be a good thing since it allows one to push pass their limitations.

Just my 2 cents.

-Gary

You are not missing anything if you are not looking for it. As Jeff said

As for the spiritual aspect of the art, well, it's there if you decide to walk that part of the path.

I do Taiji and I have been training with my sifu for over 13 years and he has been doing Taiji for over 50 years and if you want to see a bunch of people looking for spirituality go to just about any Taiji class these days. But yet I do not generally talk about it at all in any class I have been in and I did not talk about it to my students even when I taught. And my sifu as far as his views on spirituality are concerned I honestly have no idea what they are. In East Asia they do not compartmentalize things like we do in the west, Taoism is part of Taiji and that is all you need to say, it is not a Taoist practice it does not mean you are a Taoist nor does is mean you have a clue as to anything as it concerns a Taoist ritual, it is just part of Taiji. And I would guess (and this is just a guess) It is much the same with Aikido and Shinto. Basically what is is and there is no real separation or difference.

But I also feel that if you do it long enough at some level it does affect you on a Spiritual level but again it may be so subtle that you may not even realize it.

 

[charyuop]

I admit that I am lucky. In my dojo not only spirituality, but also words like Ki/Chi are very seldom used. I think that if I had ended up into a dojo too much on spiritual side (let's say a Ki society-like style?) I would have probably quit Aikido almost immediately. I live my Aikido 100% the Martial way and with that I don't mean that I go out seeking for an occasion to fight someone. I live the martiality as in my knowledge that the tools Sensei is providing me (don't care if effective the Art or effective me or not effective neither one) are tools capable to take someone else's life. Even tho I am taught a way to get out of a (hopefully never happening) fight with the knowledge of how to do it without harming someone, at the same time there must be the awareness that a slight error (or accident) in using one of those tools might result in a fatal outcome.

 

[kaizasosei]

i think all people are spiritual. just that some spirits are better than others. and ultimately, it's about knowing oneself and others.

j

 

[theletch1]

i think all people are spiritual. just that some spirits are better than others. and ultimately, it's about knowing oneself and others.

j

I couldn't agree more. Everyone is does indeed have a level of spirituality within them. I think the biggest difference is how well each of us come to know ourselves and having done that how well we deal with what we see. What has truly helped me develop the concentrated intent that we've been discussing in this thread is learning what I am willing to do to another human being to protect myself and others. This is something many of us take for granted and in so doing set ourselves up for defeat when the stuff really hits the fan. Or worse, we lose all control and truly damage someone far beyond what a spiritualy complete person would have done.

 

[kaizasosei]

that's why i think atemi has also spiritual aspects to it and is so important even without actual striking.
it's a simple matter of strategy. at a certain point, i think in wc one calls this critical distance, one sometimes must hit first or else forfeit ones security as well as ma effectivity-at least the logic of equality at the most complete dominace both mental and physical.

j

 

[ejaazi]

IMHO, you have to walk the middle path. You need to be aggresive, without using muscle. You need to be aggresive, but at the same time calm. Your body should be aggresive, but your mind and spirit should remain calm. This way, you can maintain control of yourself, which is a necessary aspect of being able to truly execute aikido techniques.

 

[Yari]

IMHO, you have to walk the middle path. You need to be aggresive, without using muscle. You need to be aggresive, but at the same time calm. Your body should be aggresive, but your mind and spirit should remain calm. This way, you can maintain control of yourself, which is a necessary aspect of being able to truly execute aikido techniques.

Interesseting.... how can this bee done, specially: to be aggresive, without using muscle


Could you elaborate on this, please?

/yari

 

[kaizasosei]

you have to move really effectively according to the opponent and know how to attack weak spots of balance. if you try to do shihonage by holding the wrist, it will not work but by holding the hand, pressure is causes on the wrist and if the opponent resists, he finds he cannot because it is putting more pressure on wrist. i used to often do shiho without using the hand. but it is different, and i was either lucky or tacky that i even had success. im grateful to some people of aikido for showing me this. it's not just a technique, it's an example of a principle. there are more, like the trick of tension and relaxation. getting power from relaxation. like if one side of a tug of war were to leg go, the other side falls-logic. the coordination of left and right as well as the powerful implementation of whole body movements.
as far as attacking weak points of balance or atemi goes, this can only be understood with lots of experience-but it's probably the most selfexplanitory.

j

 

[ejaazi]

Interesseting.... how can this bee done, specially: to be aggresive, without using muscle


Could you elaborate on this, please?

/yari

It means to be certain in your movements, but when don't let the attack make you "muscle up." When you "muscle up" you tend to use force. Keep your center down and use your breath power and not muscle. Your aggression should be your state of mind as well as the personality that you are projecting. It is not something that should be shown in a physical aspect. Your mere presence is what should be perceived as aggressive by the person who is attacking you. The attacker will not perceive that if you try and use brute force.

 

[Yari]

... Your mere presence is what should be perceived as aggressive by the person who is attacking you. .....

Ok, This I can relate to, understand and agree too.

/yari

 

[tempus]

But could you not add muscle and force at the end of your technique. Sort of like throwing a punch. You are relaxed when throwing the punch, but you gain power as you turn your hips and just at the end you make the fist to drive all that power thru.

So in theory if I blend relaxed into a technique could I not take it up a noch at the end with strength and force if necessary? Assuming that it is a technique that is torqing a body part or slamming a person and not a throw.

Just throwing this out there.

 

[kaizasosei]

the more power the better.
however, the more power you put, the harder it is to stop, reverse or control. and that's meaning just physical power without going past reasonable limits because of desire to immediately exert physical force.
putting in force and roughness without concentration is dangerous because if force is reversed to human/spiritual level, one will suddenly realize how little commitment the spirit has and how over commited the body is.
i think all movements are aiki. so, any effective momovement is in some way using aiki just as all universal bodies abide by certain rules. that is sortof stretching the meaning a bit,

i mean, simply put, it looks bad and probably isn't that great when techniques dont work. if you force them, it also might not be the best. -the ways of aikido are not about getting the person down, but they are the study of the ways of how to....and those ways work very effectively if studied and understood.

also, there are in my opinion very deep meanings behind the techniques. the movements have the potential to disarm without injuring. that it a noble thing to be kind to even your enemy and requires much higher level of skill than simply breaking and killing them first chance you get only to finish off with a double eyegouge on their carcass.
not only are the movements of aikido, the movements of the sword or spear fighting+mutodori, they are also ways of strengthening the body.
if one practices aikido properly, ones physical power also increases. hands become strong and controlled like the hands of a swordsman or weaponweilder, movements smooth, but most importantly, the physical health and spititual power comes from training the tanden.

ueshibasensei said that aikido is a meant to be a way of creating harmony with our surroundings.

j

 

[morph4me]

But could you not add muscle and force at the end of your technique. Sort of like throwing a punch. You are relaxed when throwing the punch, but you gain power as you turn your hips and just at the end you make the fist to drive all that power thru.

So in theory if I blend relaxed into a technique could I not take it up a noch at the end with strength and force if necessary? Assuming that it is a technique that is torqing a body part or slamming a person and not a throw.

Just throwing this out there.

You can, but it isn't necessary, and serves no real purpose. All it does is expends energy, it adds nothing to the technique.

the more power the better.
however, the more power you put, the harder it is to stop, reverse or control. and that's meaning just physical power without going past reasonable limits because of desire to immediately exert physical force.
putting in force and roughness without concentration is dangerous because if force is reversed to human/spiritual level, one will suddenly realize how little commitment the spirit has and how over commited the body is.
i think all movements are aiki. so, any effective momovement is in some way using aiki just as all universal bodies abide by certain rules. i mean, simply put, it looks bad and probably isn't that great when techniques dont work. if you force them, it also might not be the best. -the ways of aikido are not about getting the person down, but they are the study of the ways of how to....and those ways work very effectively if studied and understood.

I agree, aikido is about control, anything that you do to to compromise that control, makes your aikido less effective.

also, there are in my opinion very deep meanings behind the techniques. the movements have the potential to disarm without injuring. that it a noble thing to be kind to even your enemy and requires much higher level of skill than simply breaking and killing them first chance you get only to finish off with a double eyegouge on their carcass.

Here's where I disagree. I am not that noble or gracious when someone is trying to hurt me, I'll do what's necessary to end the conflict with the least amount of harm to myself and my loved ones, if that means crippling or killing my attacker and taking the consequences, so be it. Since my attacker isn't worrying about being noble and caring about my well being, I see no reason to concerm myself about his.

ueshibasensei said that aikido is a meant to be a way of creating harmony with our surroundings.
j

I believe that was a change from his earlier beliefs, and after he found religion.

 

[kaizasosei]

that's true. if one had ultimate control, one wouldnt have to worry about anything. however, we still have to control ourselves to some degree.
who can claim to have 100% control over every situation? probably noone. but we can train to become better and better with hard work and experience.

i don't know if ueshibasenseis aikido changed that much. actually, there were aspects of his art that were more internal in the beginning i think. becoming more physical with time.. however that shift was due to spiritual matters because there is so much resistance and fear in the world.
once very advanced, ueshibasensei could lead you around with his body and eyes alone, but you wouldnt want to fool around with him i think.

the greatest change really, i believe, was description of aiki and aikido. ueshibasensei realized that many people were totally missing the point. -upon rethinking, perfect analysis many ideas of aikido were redefined to include the larger scheme of things and the undeniable bond between people. see whilst people like ueshibasensei are the real deal that came up with these effective techniques, and then made them into and art. but aikido doesnt stop once one leaves the dojo. it is part of every human interaction. many people think aikido is just for the dojo. but aikido is for life. the dojo is just the practice.

but even in practice someone can be injured or get insulted and want to fight another. or worse yet, become insulted and not want to fight or better yet, make up. ueshibasensei said (hope im not misquoting too badly)- something along the lines of. ' ready yourself and then invite the enemy to attack.'- to me that sounds like someone in control.



j

 

[theletch1]

I'm reminded of the old saw "A criminal is looking for his next victim, not his next challenge". Being able to be in self control and exhibit the "aggression" or "concentrated intent" that you feel and should manifest while in the dojo will most assuredly help your interaction with others. The spiritual and the physical are, as so many have pointed out, intertwined in the martial arts and most of us really don't see the extent of it. Being able to enter into an attackers movement with intent and effect a technique directly corelates to being able to move into a meeting with a client/boss/co-worker with confidence.

The divergences that many have taken in this thread regarding where O'Sensei was going, had gone with aikido is the reason for the myriad of sub-styles of aikido. Those of us that study NGA don't trace our lineage back to Ueshiba but to Shioda Morita. My understanding is that Morita Sensei never attempted to style-ize his flavor of aikido as a path to spiritual enlightenment but rather as practical self defense. The spirituality was inherent and was to be found by each individual student. That difference between Ueshiba and Morita is profound and the very reason that each of us chose the style that we did. The differences in hombu styles are profound as well and that is why you'll find folks perfectly happy with Shodokan aikido and others happy with ki aikido. Regardless of the path each of us should be able to develop that feeling of intent that will see us through an altercation. I'm of the same mind as Morph in a self defense situation. My intent is to do whatever is needed and not lose any sleep over it. Others hold their attacker's safety in as high esteem as they hold their own safety and that is, indeed, a higher path. I'm not there and really have no intention of actively trying to get there.

 

[ejaazi]

But could you not add muscle and force at the end of your technique.

Not muscle, but power. When you muscle you tend to tense up your whole body. But when you use power, that comes from breathing and directing your energy to a certain point. When you throw a "power" punch, the power is directed to your fist and through your attacker, but the rest of your body is not tense. Hope this clears it up.