African Presence in China

Discussion in 'Chinese Culture and History' started by Black Belt Jedi, Jul 10, 2011.

  1. Black Belt Jedi

    Black Belt Jedi Blue Belt

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    For several months I have come across some revealing information about China's history. Largely being ignored by Historians, it is revealed that China's early dynasties were founded and ruled by Africans. They brought with them agriculture, a spiritual system, mathematics, science, pharmacology, astrology, and Martial Arts/military strategy.

    Here is an article by Khalifa A. Khaliq
    http://www.blackjadeworld.com/article1.html

    Here is another article by Clyde Winters
    http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/948

    Those are a couple of articles I am sharing. I have even taught these facts to my students in Karate class.

    Here is my blog I have written called They Came Before Bodhidharma. This blog is compiled of 6 years of my research into finding factual origins of the Martial Arts mainly focusing on East Asia.
    http://jonathan-bynoe.blogspot.com/2011/07/they-came-before-bodhidharma.html
     
  2. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    I read your blog post and but I am not quite certain of which points you are making. Are you setting about proving that the origins of chinese martial arts are all fallacious? Or am I missing a certain undertone? Any clarification would be appreciated thank you.
     
  3. Archangel M

    Archangel M Senior Master

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    Claptrap. Winters is one of those "Afrocentric" nutters who starts with the preposition that Africans were responsible for everything from the Ancient Greeks to Atlantis to the Mayan civilization to now the Chinese civilization then goes about "proving" it (vs. developing the theory based on actual discovery) . This is about identity politics and myth, not about scholarship.
     
  4. Ken Morgan

    Ken Morgan Senior Master

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    Any links to peer reviewed articles, backed up by genetic testing?
     
  5. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    I dunno... I'm feeling... onery I guess today.

    Prove it...

    I read your blog. I gotta say... well, no I don't.

    Prove it... Emperical, scientific evidence backed up by peer reviewed, acknowledged SME's in the field of anthropology & genetics. I will grant you... you have smidgens of facts in there but they are so twisted around, a plate of cold, cooked lingini is easier to navigate.

    Otherwise, keep living the dream.
     
  6. Archangel M

    Archangel M Senior Master

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    http://www.skepdic.com/afrocent.html



     
  7. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    From this website:
    http://jonathan-bynoe.blogspot.com/2011/07/they-came-before-bodhidharma.html
    Huang Di name was Gōngsūn Xuānyuán (公孫軒轅). Can you provide the Hanzi for his other names of Yuhai Huandi and Hu Nak Kunte? I think Huangdi is being confused with 玉皇 or Yu Huang or Yu Di who is the Jade emperor.

    The other thing is Fu Hsi and Huangdi are MYTHICAL noone knows IF THEY REALLY EXISTED so using them as proof is the same as using Peter Pan as proof English people exist.

    No proof. It is like saying Shuai jiao influenced Greek-Roman wrestling.

    I have no idea what this has to do with the article on Chinese martial arts:
    Majority of China could not read or write Hanzi hence why in the 20th century we have simplified version but using your logic we can say that since Chinese come from Africans thus Africans could not read or write as well in China.

    Kuntao/Quanfa 拳道 just means way of fist it is not a style it is an umbrella term or generalization of Chinese martial arts. It is not just something that Malaysians started calling it. The Hanzi can be read also on Mainland and though I do not think it is popular to use compare to wushu. There are many styles of Quanfa that have nothing to do with the arts being merged to Okinawa.
    The highlighted part really is interesting. Because the reason according to stories was because
    What is the Kanji or Japanese name clan name for these bushmen? Most seem to think that Japanese come from Siberia and or Korea as found in the Joumon period.

    Did you mean Sakanoue no Tanemuramaro 坂上 田村麻呂? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakanoue_no_Tamuramaro
    But you were talking about Maro/muru meaning black. Ok well lets look at the Kanji then:呂麻. This is Maro. The first part is Ma it means like hemp or flax used to for textile material and then ro means musical note but it is also a surname. So Maro does not mean anything black. now Mura 村
    it means village. And if you put the rest of it together TANE-MURA you get 種村 meaning like offspring of the village. But really its just a surname.
    Interesting I would like to see the Kanji for that quote I think the translating is not accurate.
    There is more things here but what a headache to look into more. The article from this is full of inaccurate claims to say the least.
     
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  8. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

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    If it were true, wouldn't we have a lot of people running around in China now that would look a bit like a cross between Michelle Yeoh and Beyonce .

    Actually that would look quite nice wouldn't it. :ultracool
     
  9. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    If you want to look for the African roots of the Chinese people you have to go back in time a good deal further than the OP suggested... that is to say, back to the presumed emergence of "modern" homo sapiens in Africa and the subsequent waves of migration northward into Central Asia and then eastward into China. After all, according to current theory, backed up by the archaeologic record and DNA research, we all have our origins in Africa. Even a clueless old white geezer like me. And I still can't dance. Go figure!
     
  10. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    I started reading what was posted but then this is an oldstory that is entirely false and to be blunt the studies are very flawed

    There were also white remains found in the north so is the Chinese culture european.... no it isn't.

    The claim is southern china was were they are sound and yet thelanguage comparisons being used are from Northern China and either multiple otherdialects and based on Wade Giles and saying da means destroy is absolutely meaningless.Da also means big. Based on this I could say that the Chinese language comesfrom English since they both share the sound “no” it is just that in English itmeans, well, no and when translated from the mandarin it means “here you go”. Youcould also say because of the word “Ma” that Chinese comes from English since they both mean mother… of course thatdepends on the tone used in “ma” it could also mean horse or rope. As for theword you are using for black, in mandarin it is 黑色(Hēisè). You really need to do Chinese research in Written Chinese if you aregoingt to use that for proof since translation can vary and depending on which Romanizationyou use it can get really confusing. Basically it appears linguistically you are all over the map to make a point that is more tham a little questionable.


    You and the creators of the articles are crossing dialectsto prove a point and it simply is not true. Historically there is no Universallanguage in Chinathere are multiple dialects that have changed multiple times over the years. Theyonly thing that seems to be nation wide is the writing system.

    As to martial arts. Martial arts existed in China as early as 2697 BC which is long before Da Mo, assuming he existed.

    China has thelongest continuous civilization on the planet and there have been multipleraces that have ended up there over the centuries but finding remains of anyother culture only proves that immigrated there and most of those typeimmigrations came out of necessity and none were much influence on Chineseculture as a whole. Just look at the rulers of China. The only dynasty that wasnon-han people that retained their own culture were Mongols (Yuan) every otherdynasty ended very Chinese and in the case of some they lost their originalculture and in some cases even their language.


    Historians of China tend to be rather good when it comes to China it is just the rest of the worldthat seems to have an issue with Chinese history. As for teh supplied articles, they show a rather large lack of historical and cultural knowledge of China
     
  11. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    Use your space bar as much as your words.... bwahahahahahaahaha

    There's all sorts wrong with this, not to mention he confused a Mandarin phrase for a Cantonese phrase with the Wade Giles vs Pinyin spellings. (Quan fa vs Ch'uan Fa)...

    It is humorous though & just goes to show, the right salesman can sell ice to an eskimo...
     
  12. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Interestingly enough when I looked at what I typed in word and spell checked it (using a Vista Laptop running Word 2003) there were no spelling errors and all the spaces were there. Now I see they are spaces missing... interesting

    Hsieh goi :lol:

    Ahh but with Global warming that would be easy.
     
  13. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Nothing wrong with Beyonce, actually she is rather attractive but to say “cross between Michelle Yeoh and Beyonce” thereby insinuating Michelle Yeoh needs help to be attractive..... :tantrum: BLASPHEMER!!!!! :uhyeah:
     
  14. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Sorry, one more thing

    I agree with oaktree but I missed the Shuaijiao bit and wanted to comment

    The history of Shuaijiao can be traced in legend back to 2697 BC where it was called Jiao di (角抵), it can historically be placed in the Zhou Dynasty (1046–256 BCE) where it was called jiao li (角力). Jiao li was still around and getting rather popular during the Qin Dynasty (221-207 BC) and it was still around and being taught to the soldiers of the Qing Dynasty (1644 to 1912) almost 2000 years later. The term shuaijiao comes from the Central Guoshu Academy (Zhong Yang Guo Shu Guan 中央國術館) of Nanjing in 1928 after the rules for competition were standardized

    Also note The Zhou Dynasty (1046–256 BCE) was a Northern Dynasty not Southern so for Shuaijiao to have come from Africa it would have had to travel a long way inland from Africa. basically it would have to come from Africa through the middle east into India through Southern China to get to the Zhou in the North or it could have come from Africa through the middle east into what is present day Kazakhstan to west china to Zhou to the east or from present day Kazakhstan to Mongolia and South to Zhou. All seem rather unlikely in the years prior to 1046 BCE to 256 BCE
     
  15. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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  16. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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  17. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    I have honestly looked into many of the "facts" quoted and have never seen any proof of the claims. That we all share a genetic DNA that can be traced to the place we now call "Africa" I agree on. But, when the jump is made that it translates to "black africa" as we think of it now and that black africans are responsible for everything from martial arts to the greeks to the chinese etc. Then I am still holding out for more proof if it exists.

    Much of what I see is a twisting of facts to support claims. For example, Jesus was black. Seems like that would have been a very important point if Jesus was not one of the Jewish/Hebrew people. But, I often see the "proof" that Jesus was black due to a misquoting of the following verse.

    I have seen it quoted without "white" in it to change the whole meaning of the phrase. It would then read, the hair on his head was like wool to describe it's texture and then say that is proof that Jesus was black. Huh? When "scholarship" like that starts to crop up, it taints the rest of what else follows as suspect.
     
  18. JohnEdward

    JohnEdward 2nd Black Belt

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    Africa is a huge continent. Peoples of Northern Africa differs greatly then Southern Africa, East from West. DNA currently is the authority, it over rides the old story traditions which are not as reliable, it over rides, but supported by evidence of Anthropology- which isn't always exact. The problem of DNA it doesn't provide cultural evidence.It does provide the best proof. So some logically make a jump. Well if DNA says we are all form Africa then Africa is the source of all things. Those of African decent in other countries are and where not always looked upon highly, such claims as Africans in China, and a Black Shogun lend more to credibility of a race than a fact. Theoretically, blacks may have been in ancient China, the ancient world was very transit. It is plausible Africans individually lived in China. But clearly, not a significant number to influence culture or the Chinese race, unlike the possibility of the Polynesian race having African genetics.
     
  19. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Does it say "Moorish" or does it say "black"? Did the japanese have any contact with a specific people known as the "moors" when that was written?

    That is a big leap if the word only said "black". You have to look into the cultural aspect and find out what the phrase "black blood" meant to the audience. Much like if I were to say you need to have a "black heart" to kill something. It doesn't mean that you have to have African ancestory to kill someone, we are using it as an adjective to describe an emotional quality. Just as if we said, "thick skin", do we mean that the person in question has a tougher or more layers of skin? No, it is a phrase that has a cultural meaning to us and not a literal translation.

    I see this alot with psuedo-linguistic translations, they might have a literal translation of something but no concept of the symbolism that it is supposed to represent, or it is symbolic in meaning and it is looked at literally.
     
  20. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    So the good Dr. Rashidi quotes a "Japanese" proverb. Can anyone find an example of this proverb before the good Dr. dredges it up? Nice thing about using a proverb as a reference point is that you don't have to credit it to a specific author or book. But using a proverb or an old wive's tale as proof of something is not exactly the kind of research I would expect from a Dr.
     

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