Advanced Techniques

[Kung Fu Wang]

to extend both my arms in front of me - right toward their face.....

I call that Chinese zombie arm strategy (American zombie doesn't have stiff arms).

America zombie:

Chinese zombie:

The Chinese zombie arms is heavily used in Chinese wrestling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

?

I'm not sure where we've crossed up on this one. You were talking about landing a punch against another fighter without getting hit - which was not part of my definition at any time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Would you call a Jab-Rear Straight-Hook punch combination an advance technique? I don't. That combination is more complex than just a Jab or a Rear Straight but it certainly isn't an advanced technique.

No, that's a series of techniques. The combination is more advanced than the individual techniques, I suppose (using my own definition), but it's not a single technique.

I'm truly curious how you define advanced technique.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

An advance technique doesn't have to be the finish move. It can be the set up move (door opening move) as well. If your "door opening move" can always lead you into your finish move, it will require a lot of training and it's advance technique.

For example,

Beginner level technique - a jab is just to land your fist on your opponent's face.

Advance level technique - a jab is a bait to invite your opponent's arm to block it. You then change your jab into an arm pulling. Your pull will help you to move into your opponent faster. You then land your other fist (the cross) on your opponent's face.

Your jab serves the following purpose:

- punch on your opponent's face.
- invite your opponent's arm to block it.
- use your pulling to open your opponent's guard.
- borrow the counter force to pull yourself into your opponent.
- your pulling will start your power generation for your other hand's punch.
- ...

Your jab will become the following "advance" weapon:

I like this approach, but it's still not the way I'd define it. What you're describing is still what I'd refer to as advanced application of the technique. An advanced technique - to me - is an advanced technique at all times (sort of).

 

[Buka]

I call that Chinese zombie arm strategy (American zombie doesn't have stiff arms).

America zombie:

Chinese zombie:

The Chinese zombie arms is heavily used in Chinese wrestling.

I will forever call that The Chinese Zombie stance now. That’s pretty trippy.
I just used to love doing the Chinese Zombie against boxers. Hell, brother, that was even fun to say. I’m all Zombied up!

 

[Buka]

My favorite thing in the universe is that look you get the first time you kick a boxer in their legs. :

Yes, that is a fine look indeed. But my very favorite look is when you sweep them and when they start to get up you fake like you’re going to kick their face as their hands are on the canvass pushing themselves up.

They so hate that. But, man, I learned so much about fighting in boxing gyms. Not just about punching, but about fighting.

I love boxing. I fricken’ hate boxing. It’s a real Yin Yang thing to me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I just used to love doing the Chinese Zombie against boxers.

When you use the stiff arms guard such as the

- rhino guard (close the center but open both sides), or
- Chinese zombie guard (close both sides but open the center),

you have eliminated your opponent's striking path into 1/2. Since most likely, your opponent will try to destroy your stiff arms guard (such as to push on your arm), you have just bait your opponent to play your favor "grip fight" game and forget about his favor "fist fight" game.

 

[Danny T]

No, that's a series of techniques. The combination is more advanced than the individual techniques, I suppose (using my own definition), but it's not a single technique.

I'm truly curious how you define advanced technique.

Hmm, not certain there is 'advanced technique' other than being taught or shown at a later period in training. We have fundamentals, advanced would be how those fundamentals are chained, when they are chained, etc. What makes it advance is knowing when and why something is use and not just the what and how.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hmm, not certain there is 'advanced technique' other than being taught or shown at a later period in training. We have fundamentals, advanced would be how those fundamentals are chained, when they are chained, etc. What makes it advance is knowing when and why something is use and not just the what and how.

Got it. Yeah, my definition pretty much just refers to the stuff that's held for later because it doesn't make sense struggling with it early. I'm not sure typical definitions for "advanced" really apply to that entire body, except that they're reserved for more advanced practitioners.

 

[Martial D]

I'm not sure where we've crossed up on this one. You were talking about landing a punch against another fighter without getting hit - which was not part of my definition at any time.

I'm not sure if I lost you or you are being purposefully disingenuous. I'll assume the former and explain it again.

I asked for your definition of 'advanced technique'.

You replied with the definition I requoted, and I'll quote here again.

An advanced technique is one that requires an advanced level of skill.

To that I replied 'oh, we agree' as the definition I stated was that an advanced technique is anything you can make work in real life, as ALL techniques require 'an advanced level of skill' to make work reliably in real life, outside of a mat where people are cooperating.

The example fits your definition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not sure if I lost you or you are being purposefully disingenuous. I'll assume the former and explain it again.

I asked for your definition of 'advanced technique'.

You replied with the definition I requoted, and I'll quote here again.


To that I replied 'oh, we agree' as the definition I stated was that an advanced technique is anything you can make work in real life, as ALL techniques require 'an advanced level of skill' to make work reliably in real life, outside of a mat where people are cooperating.

The example fits your definition.

I honestly can't tell if you're doing this on purpose, or not, MD. So, let's go back to the idea of "advanced". If there's a basic skill level that allows application of basic technique against a not-so-skilled opponent, then there are both techniques and opponents who will call for a more advanced skill level.

Not every technique in every application requires advanced skills.

 

[Buka]

We used to do a scissors take downs as a basic techniques, either going one leg across the belt line and the other behind the knees - or going one leg behind the knees and the other against the front of the ankles.

For advanced technique we used to do a head scissors, one leg across the front of the face or throat, the other behind their back. This scissors is much more fun - but you have to know how to train it safely.

 

[Martial D]

I honestly can't tell if you're doing this on purpose, or not, MD. So, let's go back to the idea of "advanced". If there's a basic skill level that allows application of basic technique against a not-so-skilled opponent, then there are both techniques and opponents who will call for a more advanced skill level.

Not every technique in every application requires advanced skills.

Have you ever sparred full or fought before? If it were easy to just do stuff to people and win martial arts wouldn't need to exist. When someone is trying to hit you back you are going to need a high level of skill in any technique you expect to work.

You can't both hold to your definition of 'advanced technique' and deny examples that fit that definition of you care about being honest or consistent.

 

[drop bear]

No, that's a series of techniques. The combination is more advanced than the individual techniques, I suppose (using my own definition), but it's not a single technique.

I'm truly curious how you define advanced technique.

It is more like an iceberg. You only see the top 10%

So maywhether's jab isn't really a basic technique it it takes all these other factors to make it work.

If a technique takes five other techniques to set it up. It is advanced.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have you ever sparred full or fought before? If it were easy to just do stuff to people and win martial arts wouldn't need to exist. When someone is trying to hit you back you are going to need a high level of skill in any technique you expect to work.

You can't both hold to your definition of 'advanced technique' and deny examples that fit that definition of you care about being honest or consistent.

So, in your opinion, it takes the same amount of skill to hit a gumby as to hit someone who's well trained??

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is more like an iceberg. You only see the top 10%

View attachment 22292

So maywhether's jab isn't really a basic technique it it takes all these other factors to make it work.

If a technique takes five other techniques to set it up. It is advanced.

Okay, I can buy into that thought. I like that.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

As long as the technique is simple and direct and can be applied with dilligent practice and muscle memory it really doesn't matter. Now you have some techniques that just look good but serve no real purpose. Use what works for you. Because what works for me may not work well for you.

Something that I started saying a few years ago and I finally wrote down (on a chalkboard at my kwoon):

Advanced Techniques are:
1) Difficult -or-
2) Dangerous (to you) -or-
3) Dangerous (to someone else) -or-
4) Break some of the rules or defy some of the system's basic/intermediate principles -or-
5) Some combination of the above

So, it stands to reason, based on #4 that advanced techniques in one system could be beginner or intermediate techniques in another system. If you are a free-form, collector-of-techniques-as-a-style type of practitioner, I don't think this applies to you.

For the rest of you, regardless of what system you teach or train in, what are your thoughts?

 

[isshinryuronin]

A lot of confusion here. Set-up, execution, dangerousness, series of techniques...- making this too complicated. Definitions should be precise and simple. We are considering a single technique. You may use five moves to set up a punch - that doesn't make the punch itself advanced. The series may be considered advanced as a whole, but the individual punch is still a basic move. A basic move can still cause a lot of damage, so damage is not a factor in the definition.

A series of moves to set up a punch could be called advanced, only because it would have to be very well executed to work. That doesn't make the punch an advanced technique. A flying heel hook HAS to be executed well to work at all, so I would call that an advanced move. A kick to the shins hurts and can cause damage, but not a lot of skill is needed, so that is a basic move.

Techniques which require advanced skill/execution to perform effectively are advanced. Techniques which do not require advanced skill/execution to perform effectively are basic. This definition seems to me to be complete, and, dare I say, "definitive."

 

[jobo]

A lot of confusion here. Set-up, execution, dangerousness, series of techniques...- making this too complicated. Definitions should be precise and simple. We are considering a single technique. You may use five moves to set up a punch - that doesn't make the punch itself advanced. The series may be considered advanced as a whole, but the individual punch is still a basic move. A basic move can still cause a lot of damage, so damage is not a factor in the definition.

A series of moves to set up a punch could be called advanced, only because it would have to be very well executed to work. That doesn't make the punch an advanced technique. A flying heel hook HAS to be executed well to work at all, so I would call that an advanced move. A kick to the shins hurts and can cause damage, but not a lot of skill is needed, so that is a basic move.

Techniques which require advanced skill/execution to perform effectively are advanced. Techniques which do not require advanced skill/execution to perform effectively are basic. This definition seems to me to be complete, and, dare I say, "definitive."

but a jab for instance can range from a inaccurate annoyance to a nose breakiNg fight ender dependent on the level of skill with which it's performed, as there is a contimum of skill in its execution it would by your definitive definition above be both basic and extremely advance and any conceivable point in between dependent on the practitioner

 

[ShortBridge]

A lot of confusion here. ... making this too complicated. Definitions should be precise and simple. ...

Techniques which require advanced skill/execution to perform effectively are advanced. Techniques which do not require advanced skill/execution to perform effectively are basic. This definition seems to me to be complete, and, dare I say, "definitive."

I don't disagree with you and I think is the classic definition. What I was getting at is that we have some reasonably simple techniques and movements in Wing Chun that we hold back until students are more advanced because they sort of work against our theme. So, what makes them for "advanced" students isn't always complexity or effectiveness, but just that the would work somewhat against what we try to instill in beginners.