Advanced Techniques

[Danny T]

Just because it is harder to do or even more complex doesn't mean it's 'advanced'. There are fundamentals that are difficult and complex in what we do but they aren't advanced. They are just fundamentals.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Landing ANYTHING on a resisting opponent without taking something back, especially one that knows what they are doing, requires an advanced level of skill, as per your definition.

Would you like to change your definition?

You're moving the goalposts. My definition stands, and works fine for me. If you don't like it, that's okay. Use yours.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just because it is harder to do or even more complex doesn't mean it's 'advanced'. There are fundamentals that are difficult and complex in what we do but they aren't advanced. They are just fundamentals.

How do you define advanced, then Danny?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Anything I can apply against a range of opponents must be quite advanced technique, even if it is a jab.

Usually people think advanced stuff is the fancy stuff. Fancy stuff is risky; and from time to time helpful.

I like the thought behind this. Still not the definition I use, but I like it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For the record I do understand your point, but it's only true under certain conditions; that being a compliant partner or no partner.

When the other person changes the situation, it's not the technique that changes.

Basically, my definition boils down to an advanced technique being something that's too complex or finicky to be worth teaching early. They require a more advanced skillset (or set of attributes).

 

[Martial D]

You're moving the goalposts. My definition stands, and works fine for me. If you don't like it, that's okay. Use yours.

How am I moving the goalposts? Are you saying landing without getting hit(which is ultimately the end game of any fight type situation) does not require an 'advanced level of skill'?

 

[Martial D]

When the other person changes the situation, it's not the technique that changes.

Basically, my definition boils down to an advanced technique being something that's too complex or finicky to be worth teaching early. They require a more advanced skillset (or set of attributes).

But the technique does change. The footwork especially, and the level of skill it takes to know where and when.

Yes, some moves, especially in grappling, require more complicated setups, and I get that's where you're going here, but even the most complicated submission is much easier to pull off against a compliant opponent than landing a jab on someone that is trying not to get hit. The latter takes more skill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How am I moving the goalposts? Are you saying landing without getting hit(which is ultimately the end game of any fight type situation) does not require an 'advanced level of skill'?

No, but that was never part of my definition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But the technique does change. The footwork especially, and the level of skill it takes to know where and when.

Yes, some moves, especially in grappling, require more complicated setups, and I get that's where you're going here, but even the most complicated submission is much easier to pull off against a compliant opponent than landing a jab on someone that is trying not to get hit. The latter takes more skill.

You're talking about an advanced version of the technique, by my definition.

And comparing compliant use of one technique to noncompliant use of another seems senseless.

Advanced version, I agree with (actually, I'd call it an advanced application, but close enough). But not advanced technique, by my definition.

 

[Martial D]

No, but that was never part of my definition.

?

An advanced technique is one that requires an advanced level of skill.

 

[Danny T]

How do you define advanced, then Danny?

Would you call a Jab-Rear Straight-Hook punch combination an advance technique? I don't. That combination is more complex than just a Jab or a Rear Straight but it certainly isn't an advanced technique.

 

[Buka]

When you first train boxing and learn your way around a ring....a jab is something you might feel pretty good about, might even have a nifty one yourself.

The first time you spar with a talented, professional boxer who has great jab.....it's like walking into a swarm of angry wasps.....when you've been drinking.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Hitting a gumby with a jab doesn't take a high level of skill, at all.

An advance technique doesn't have to be the finish move. It can be the set up move (door opening move) as well. If your "door opening move" can always lead you into your finish move, it will require a lot of training and it's advance technique.

For example,

Beginner level technique - a jab is just to land your fist on your opponent's face.

Advance level technique - a jab is a bait to invite your opponent's arm to block it. You then change your jab into an arm pulling. Your pull will help you to move into your opponent faster. You then land your other fist (the cross) on your opponent's face.

Your jab serves the following purpose:

- punch on your opponent's face.
- invite your opponent's arm to block it.
- use your pulling to open your opponent's guard.
- borrow the counter force to pull yourself into your opponent.
- your pulling will start your power generation for your other hand's punch.
- ...

Your jab will become the following "advance" weapon:

 

[ShortBridge]

The sentiment of one of my original points has kind of been lost over this discussion or maybe I just didn't make it clearly enough to begin with.

In a "system", techniques are just tools, they aren't the system. I teach techniques to beginners, of course, but my priority with them is to establish some principles and get them processing things in-line with the foundational qualities of our system. Of course they think they come for techniques and I give them some. Which techniques I give to a beginner vs hold back for an intermediate or more advanced student often come down to whether they work for or against my goal if establishing those foundational principles.

 

[Martial D]

The sentiment of one of my original points has kind of been lost over this discussion or maybe I just didn't make it clearly enough to begin with.

In a "system", techniques are just tools, they aren't the system. I teach techniques to beginners, of course, but my priority with them is to establish some principles and get them processing things in-line with the foundational qualities of our system. Of course they think they come for techniques and I give them some. Which techniques I give to a beginner vs hold back for an intermediate or more advanced student often come down to whether they work for or against my goal if establishing those foundational principles.

This is ultimately no different in principle to how boxing or MMA is trained.

 

[Buka]

This is ultimately no different in principle to how boxing or MMA is trained.

There was for me. In boxing, I can mess with boxers using various things I learned in dojos. And when I say mess with them, it was all in the spirit of sport. In MMA those same things got me wrecked.

There's just so many different ways to do things in MMA. And boxing is just so very limited.

 

[Danny T]

When you first train boxing and learn your way around a ring....a jab is something you might feel pretty good about, might even have a nifty one yourself.

The first time you spar with a talented, professional boxer who has great jab.....it's like walking into a swarm of angry wasps.....when you've been drinking.

YEP!

 

[Martial D]

There was for me. In boxing, I can mess with boxers using various things I learned in dojos. And when I say mess with them, it was all in the spirit of sport. In MMA those same things got me wrecked.

There's just so many different ways to do things in MMA. And boxing is just so very limited.

But conversely, you can get pretty tricky with just your hands under MMA rules.

 

[Buka]

But conversely, you can get pretty tricky with just your hands under MMA rules.

Very true, bro, very true.

But if I'm allowed to use Martial Arts skills against boxers, it gets rather ridiculous. Through no fault of their own, they aren't prepared for sweeps, traps, take downs, skilled kickers who've worked against boxers etc.

I spent more than a few years in boxing gyms learning to box better. Then, after a time when everyone knew me, they said, go ahead, use that chop sockey stuff if you want. That was a whole lot of fun. First thing I did was sweep of course. Boxer fall down. Then I used a bastardized form of a cross between the Philly Shell and Ken Norton's old Peek-a-boo stance but leaving a big opening between my arms so they could jab me in the face.

Which is obviously what I wanted. And they knew that, they just couldn't resist the opening it. I would slam shut my arms together and trap their glove. Then started dragging them around, always moving outside the trapped arm. Remember now, they are the ones that said use that chop sockey stuff.

Another thing I did that really P'd them off was to extend both my arms in front of me - right toward their face....then played Matador and bull. They could not touch me. I know, I know, everyone will say that they would get through that foolish stance - just like they all said at the boxing gyms. Except they couldn't. I will also point out I've worked with some pretty good boxers in my day.

WHEREAS....in MMA they'd just take me down and we would grapple from there. Boxers may know how to knock you down, but they don't know how to take you down. Even if they did, they do not train on the ground. They be screwed.

This is in no way meant as in insult to boxing. It is one of the most difficult, practical and plain nasty arts I have ever been involved in. But it's specialized. Please spend some time in it before making any judgements.

And that goes for MMA as well. Everybody who has never trained MMA seems to have opinions on it....based on absolutely nothing other than watching it on TV, maybe going to a match or two. Damn it's good stuff. But, damn, it's so hard to do.

 

[Martial D]

Very true, bro, very true.

But if I'm allowed to use Martial Arts skills against boxers, it gets rather ridiculous. Through no fault of their own, they aren't prepared for sweeps, traps, take downs, skilled kickers who've worked against boxers etc.

I spent more than a few years in boxing gyms learning to box better. Then, after a time when everyone knew me, they said, go ahead, use that chop sockey stuff if you want. That was a whole lot of fun. First thing I did was sweep of course. Boxer fall down. Then I used a bastardized form of a cross between the Philly Shell and Ken Norton's old Peek-a-boo stance but leaving a big opening between my arms so they could jab me in the face.

Which is obviously what I wanted. And they knew that, they just couldn't resist the opening it. I would slam shut my arms together and trap their glove. Then started dragging them around, always moving outside the trapped arm. Remember now, they are the ones that said use that chop sockey stuff.

Another thing I did that really P'd them off was to extend both my arms in front of me - right toward their face....then played Matador and bull. They could not touch me. I know, I know, everyone will say that they would get through that foolish stance - just like they all said at the boxing gyms. Except they couldn't. I will also point out I've worked with some pretty good boxers in my day.

WHEREAS....in MMA they'd just take me down and we would grapple from there. Boxers may know how to knock you down, but they don't know how to take you down. Even if they did, they do not train on the ground. They be screwed.

This is in no way meant as in insult to boxing. It is one of the most difficult, practical and plain nasty arts I have ever been involved in. But it's specialized. Please spend some time in it before making any judgements.

And that goes for MMA as well. Everybody who has never trained MMA seems to have opinions on it....based on absolutely nothing other than watching it on TV, maybe going to a match or two. Damn it's good stuff. But, damn, it's so hard to do.

My favorite thing in the universe is that look you get the first time you kick a boxer in their legs. :