Abstinence Education Immoral?

[michaeledward]

shesulsa, although I may be preaching to the choir (if I can use that pun in this discussion), but I think a sociologist might fing one of the reasons that human groups tend to organize around religous principles, is to enforce some 'higher authority' structure on the exercise of biological urges in their respective groups.

Or, as an Athiest might put it, Man creates God in his own image. And does so to create socially acceptable limits on behavior. (e.g. Don't have sex before marriage because God Said So).



Lastly, one of my dear friends, way back in high school, found out that her "sister" was really her "mother". Grandmother raised my friend as a daughter. When the truth became known, I witnessed first hand the emotional reckoning. It was a difficult and painful thing for all involved. And while the choice made may have been made with the best intentions; the fullness of time proved that intentions unequal to the emotional struggles.

 

[donald]

To Shesulsa,Michaeledward;et al,

Good morning all. I hope everyone is rested? Regarding what my kid's ped., said. I have already said what I remember her saying. I am not a Dr., or any type of Health Care Pro.. For me to go beyond what I have already stated. I just can't do. Its painfully obvious to me. That you, and medward, are not interested in debate,(at least with a Christian) but in arguing. I may be incorrect, and if I am I apologize. I have presented what I understand, and am willing to defend my position. It just seems to me that denegrating GOD's Word, and my ability to be a sensible parent. Is'nt really in the scope of our post. As I already stated in another post. We all have a free will, and by GOD's grace. We who live in the USA have the ability to express that. Whether it is to do wrong, or right. We as a nation once chose to use GOD's Word in the class room. I believe that was to our benefit, as a nation. We as a nation some decades ago chose to remove GOD's Word from our classrooms. I believe that was, and is to our detrement as a nation. This is not religious rambling. I believe that if the evidence available is honestly examined. This can be plainly seen. Thank you for your time, and consideration.
1stJohn1:9

 

[shesulsa]

To Shesulsa,Michaeledward;et al,

Good morning all. I hope everyone is rested? Regarding what my kid's ped., said. I have already said what I remember her saying. I am not a Dr., or any type of Health Care Pro.. For me to go beyond what I have already stated. I just can't do. Its painfully obvious to me. That you, and medward, are not interested in debate,(at least with a Christian) but in arguing. I may be incorrect, and if I am I apologize. I have presented what I understand, and am willing to defend my position. It just seems to me that denegrating GOD's Word, and my ability to be a sensible parent. Is'nt really in the scope of our post. As I already stated in another post. We all have a free will, and by GOD's grace. We who live in the USA have the ability to express that. Whether it is to do wrong, or right. We as a nation once chose to use GOD's Word in the class room. I believe that was to our benefit, as a nation. We as a nation some decades ago chose to remove GOD's Word from our classrooms. I believe that was, and is to our detrement as a nation. This is not religious rambling. I believe that if the evidence available is honestly examined. This can be plainly seen. Thank you for your time, and consideration.
1stJohn1:9

Arguments are part of debate.

Your posts are hard to read, Donald. Could you please post in full sentences? It's hard. To read. A post. Like this. Thanks!

I wonder why it can't be that parents can be responsible for religious education of children and public schools can be responsible for health-related sex education? Do you not think that withholding potentially life-saving information from our children is a sin?

 

[donald]

The problem, IMHO, with sex ed, and the other issues you raise in general, is that too many parents are not teaching this at home


Thats one of the problems. Many parents have shirked their responsibilities in these areas. Does that mean common sense should go out the window? If we as a nation are going to teach sex in school. Would'nt it be prudent to teach the why s, and wherfores of abstinence? I think this should be discussed in the light of GOD's Word. If it is to be discussed at all.

1stJohn1:9

 

[donald]

Do you not think that withholding potentially life-saving information from our children is a sin?

Absolutely. Not?

1stJohn1:9

ps:Graduate of the Wm. Shatner School of....

 

[shesulsa]

Absolutely. Not?

1stJohn1:9

ps:Graduate of the Wm. Shatner School of....

I don't understand this post.

 

[michaeledward]

To Shesulsa,Michaeledward;et al,

Good morning all. I hope everyone is rested? Regarding what my kid's ped., said. I have already said what I remember her saying. I am not a Dr., or any type of Health Care Pro.. For me to go beyond what I have already stated. I just can't do. Its painfully obvious to me. That you, and medward, are not interested in debate,(at least with a Christian) but in arguing. I may be incorrect, and if I am I apologize. I have presented what I understand, and am willing to defend my position. It just seems to me that denegrating GOD's Word, and my ability to be a sensible parent. Is'nt really in the scope of our post. As I already stated in another post. We all have a free will, and by GOD's grace. We who live in the USA have the ability to express that. Whether it is to do wrong, or right. We as a nation once chose to use GOD's Word in the class room. I believe that was to our benefit, as a nation. We as a nation some decades ago chose to remove GOD's Word from our classrooms. I believe that was, and is to our detrement as a nation. This is not religious rambling. I believe that if the evidence available is honestly examined. This can be plainly seen. Thank you for your time, and consideration.
1stJohn1:9

I am fully willing to debate. But when you default to the position based on your interpretation of god's word, you are not engaging in debate, but ideology.

You are unwilling to present verifiable evidence of your positions.
A) there is such a thing as 'God's Word'.
B) that this used to be part of the curriculum of our public schools
C) that removing this concept from the curriculum had a negative impact

You offer not debate, but that I accept your positions, based on zero substance.



Shesulsa has asked you to back up your claims concerning disease with some evidence, and you are unwilling to do that as well. In the absence of evidence or facts ... a thoughtful debator ... would withdraw an ascertion, not just proclaim that he "may be wrong".

I believe, donald, that you are wrong.

I was amazed to find out from my kids pedetrician. That a girl can contract a std simply because her body is not ready for sex! I had never heard this before. There truly is" a time, and a season for everything".

I believe that either, your physician is an idiot, or you did not understand what your physician said. I hope your physician did not say that. You interpreted it through the lens of your belief structure.

This is not debate - your argument is 'Believe me because god said' - and that is the poorest form of debate.

 

[Kacey]

Thats one of the problems. Many parents have shirked their responsibilities in these areas. Does that mean common sense should go out the window? If we as a nation are going to teach sex in school. Would'nt it be prudent to teach the why s, and wherfores of abstinence? I think this should be discussed in the light of GOD's Word. If it is to be discussed at all.

1stJohn1:9

I disagree - it is extremely difficult, if not impossible (and I lean toward impossible) to create a curriculum including God as a moral imperative that includes all of the possible religious orientations, or lack thereof, that are present in the average school. If you want your children to learn morality, in regards to sex ed and/or other topics, as it relates to God, that is your choice and your right, to teach them at home, or under the auspices of your particular religious facility. It is not - nor should it be - the school's place to teach religious ideology.

An example: I have several friends who are Orthodox Jewish, whose children attend public schools. They also attend private religious instruction through their shul (Orthodox synagogue). Their parents do not expect them to recieve such instruction through the public school system, nor do they expect them to be inculcated with another religion's beliefs and values, some of which they share with you and some of which they do not - yet you are saying that your version of Christian ideology should be taught to every child, as the cure for the ills you see in the behavior of the current younger generation.

I enjoy learning about other religions, but I do not, and did not as a child and teen, enjoy being forced to recite statements based on a religion that I disagreed with simply because that was what was taught to me in school. My parents ensured that I had the information I needed to make responsible, moral choices about sex and other activities, and the information provided by the school, which came as part of the health curriculum and centered on disease prevention and birth control, provided additional information that further supported the information I had from my parents - but it would not have had a major impact on me otherwise, and had it been couched in the religious terms that you are espousing, I would have ignored it completely, because I am not Christian - and an argument based on the word of God and/or Christ is totally meaningless to me, and would be equally meaningless to a large number of students today. No one here is saying you cannot teach your children as you like - we are saying that we do not agree with teaching other people's children as you like, simply because you say so.

Absolutely. Not?

1stJohn1:9

ps:Graduate of the Wm. Shatner School of....

I don't understand this post.

Shesulsa - an aside from the thread - William Shatner is known for his disconnected method of speech, which sounds like he is putting periods in all the wrong places, because he pauses in odd places.

Donald - I agree with Shesulsa. No matter what your reason, your method of writing is difficult to read. While people do not necessarily discount your opinion simply because of your typing style, it does tend to distract, and therefore detract, from whatever you're trying to say.

We now return to the topic at hand.

 

[shesulsa]

Shesulsa - an aside from the thread - William Shatner is known for his disconnected method of speech, which sounds like he is putting periods in all the wrong places, because he pauses in odd places.

Yes! I ... know. I ... was a big fan! of! The Star Trek television series which ... STARRED ....... William Shatner, however .... his METHOD! of CON-VERS-A-TION....leaves much to be desired.

Donald - I agree with Shesulsa. No matter what your reason, your method of writing is difficult to read. While people do not necessarily discount your opinion simply because of your typing style, it does tend to distract, and therefore detract, from whatever you're trying to say.

We now return to the topic at hand.

 

[michaeledward]

Shesulsa - an aside from the thread - William Shatner is known for his disconnected method of speech, which sounds like he is putting periods in all the wrong places, because he pauses in odd places.

Donald - I agree with Shesulsa. No matter what your reason, your method of writing is difficult to read. While people do not necessarily discount your opinion simply because of your typing style, it does tend to distract, and therefore detract, from whatever you're trying to say.

I was kind of thinking it was the amount of god he experienced during his education. Perhaps they were focusing on Ecclesiastes, instead of grammar.

 

[Lisa]

I grew up with a rather liberal mother. One who taught me to take care of myself and to be responsible for myself. She told me over and over for as long as I can remember "Protect yourself and remember, I would much rather hear 'mom, I am on the pill' then 'mom, I am pregnant'" Now she wasn't condoning me going out and having unbridled sex, she was trying to be realistic about it.

Those candid conversations with my mother did me a lot of good. I didn't end up in "trouble" and always took care of myself. I wish the same thing could be said about my friends whose parents believed the sex ed in the school system was taboo. I can't tell you how many of them I took down to the local clinic for pregnancy tests. How many of them didn't finish highschool and how many of them made decisions that scarred them for life.

Don't do it, because I said so, doesn't work. Plain and simple.

 

[The Master]

Abstinence education is no more unethical or immoral than sexual education. What is unethical and immoral is to deny people the information needed to make an informed and well thought out decision.

Fools and closed minded idiots hide behind out dated religious dogma. These are often the same morons that stand there on a house in the middle of a flood claiming "God will save me" while turning away everyone who shows up in a boat, as if some giant hand will scoop them up and drop them off at the local "gathering of the faithful".

Donald, you believe that this should all be handled at home. I agree. The problem is, that it is often not handled at home, or when it is, it is mis-handled. How many people grow up with the hangups that sex is bad? That touch is evil? That enjoying sex is wrong? I knew a woman once who believed her "duty" as a woman was to be there soley for her husbands pleasure, that she was "forbidden by god" to enjoy it, and went to great lengths to ensure that she felt nothing during sex. She had been criminally miseducated by her ultrastrict so called god-fearing parents. It has taken her years of therapy to finally overcome that. I heard 2 kids arguing once, about vagina teeth. Seems the ones mother in an attempt to "save him" from the "evils" of sex, insisted that vaginas had teeth and would bite him unless god approved. No idea on if he ever risked getting bit.

In any event, when someone insists that god wants X, I always have to ask, "Which god"? Last count there were a thousand of them out there, and no group can ever really agree on which one they are talking about.

As the great prophet, hallowed be his name, George Carlin once said:
"Do you believe in God?" "No" *BANG*
"Do you believe in God?" "Yes"
"Do you believe in My God" "No" *BANG*

We would do well to outlaw religion entirely and stop hiding behind it and start thinking for ourselves.

As to Sex-Ed and whatnot, teach it in school so it is consistant and give them the information they need to decide for themselves.

And get rid of these crack pot doctors who think that aids, and stds are some fictional superbeings wrath.


Back to the Time Streams!

 

[OUMoose]

Is abstience education immoral? No. Learning about a subject is not immoral, and knowledge truely is power. As with most things in life, it's the actions influenced by said knowledge that can be immoral.

I'd go into it more, but it's been quite eloquently covered already.

and as far as the GOD comments... yeah... God has no place in school except perhaps a world history, mythology, or theology class. That's it. If that's your thing, go for it. Leave the rest of us to the "path of the light-bringer" so we can move toward "en-light-en-ment"...


[asian]

 

[Brian Jones]

I beleive that Abstinence education can work, but its teh vehicle that is faulty. It can't be up to teh school alone. PArents need to do a better job of explaiing why abstinence is importnat, and not just to avoid pregnancy or STD. Parents, church and school should talk about the emotional, physical and spiritual consequences of becoming sexually active.

Brian Jones

 

[Phoenix44]

Go ahead, teach abstinence. And also teach birth control and disease prevention.

In our school district, so-called "sex ed" isn't even taught as "sex ed." It's taught as part of the usual health and biology curriculum. In kindergarten, kids learn that covering your mouth when you cough and washing your hands prevents disease. In high school boys AND girls learn about both the seminal vesicles AND the menstrual cycle. I never heard of anyone of any religion complaining.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Is abstience education immoral? No. Learning about a subject is not immoral, and knowledge truely is power. As with most things in life, it's the actions influenced by said knowledge that can be immoral.

I'd go into it more, but it's been quite eloquently covered already.

and as far as the GOD comments... yeah... God has no place in school except perhaps a world history, mythology, or theology class. That's it. If that's your thing, go for it. Leave the rest of us to the "path of the light-bringer" so we can move toward "en-light-en-ment"...


[asian]

Learning about gods does help us understand the whys. Is why people do things not important?
Sean

 

[OUMoose]

Learning about gods does help us understand the whys. Is why people do things not important?
Sean

Of course, a person's reasoning behind an action is important to understand. "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it" (George Santayana). However, given the context of the thread, an objective study into the positives and negatives of all forms of sexual conduct including abstinence is better than a mythical sky-god shaking his (or her) finger at you from a billion miles away saying "naughty naughty!!".

Just my opinion though.

 

[qi-tah]

Oh dear... *wipes tears from eyes* This really should be in the comedy section. Or perhaps there should be a new section for tragedy? *sigh* Kind of reminds me of my teacher trying to explain a refinement of a technique to a student who, considering how long he'd been training, should have had the basics down, but didn't. End result, frustration all round. I've leant the hard way long ago not to talk philosophy with a card-carrying god-squader.

As an aside, we had sex ed. in my high school that was very comprehensive, with one glaring (to me) omission - no mention of homosexuality. As i was in the process of coming out at the time and desperate for some kind of assurance that i wasn't a two-headed freak (the way my mum reacted to me telling her didn't help), i found this very disappointing.

 

[qi-tah]

Hey - had a bit of a think about my last post and came to the conclusion that my language could be construed as offensive to some - my sincere apols if so. So please read "card-carrying god squader" as "religious fundamentalist" instead.

Ta!