about that

[sinthetik_mistik]

The bottom spear has a hook. A wrestler can also train striking art.

oh ok i didn't notice that hook. once a wrestler trains striking it becomes MMA. kind of like if a boxer starts to kick it becomes kickboxing

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

oh ok i didn't notice that hook. once a wrestler trains striking it becomes MMA. kind of like if a boxer starts to kick it becomes kickboxing

The goal is kick + punch + lock + throw + ground game. The starting point can be different.

punch = boxing
punch + kick = kickboxing
punch + kick + throw = Sanda
punch + kick + throw + ground game = MMA

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

The goal is kick + punch + lock + throw + ground game. The starting point can be different.

punch = boxing
punch + kick = kickboxing
punch + kick + throw = Sanda
punch + kick + throw + ground game = MMA

MMA is highly effective in every way. no disagreement there

 

[Headhunter]

Who cares what a few people say take no notice

 

[Flying Crane]

i never said it was different than defending against a strike. or if i did, i don't remember it

That wasn’t aimed at you specifically. Rather, I was pointing out to the discussion something that I think a lot of people overlook.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

oh ok i didn't notice that hook. once a wrestler trains striking it becomes MMA. kind of like if a boxer starts to kick it becomes kickboxing

Where KFW says "wrestler", read "grappler". I consider myself primarily a grappler, but I hit kind of a lot, too. My primary art has both sides in it, as do several others.

 

[oftheherd1]

just read a forum on Facebook where a lot of people were basically saying that the Gracies proved that striking is defenseless against grappling and it really bothered me. bothered me so much that it put me in a bad mood. i know i shouldn't care about what people like that are saying but yeah

I don't have the time right now to read all this, but the first thing that comes to mind is that the relative skills of two people sparring or fighting will play into any outcome. I don't think one can make flat out statements about how different styles or arts will fare against each other without knowing that.

As to different arts, in the Hapkido I learned, at the colored belt level, we learned defenses against strikes and bear hugs, front and back. Would they work against any opponent I might meet? I don't know because I have not, nor do I expect to meet every possible opponent. But judging from some of the answers on the first page, I suspect there would be some very surprised strikers or bear huggers who might try those moves on me.

 

[hoshin1600]

that's actually really good advice thank you. I've had a few debates on this site but the fact of the matter is I don't even enjoy debating... i like what you said about knowing when to walk away

Even for those of us who love debating (I'm one of them), you still have to know when to walk away. It stops being fun at some point.

debate is my favorite past time. however there is debate and there is argument. good debate requires both parties to present their view with honesty and in good faith
Intellectually-honest and intellectually-dishonest debate tactics

often people will ignore your facts and are more interested in winning rather than coming to the table in good faith and being open to the possibility of coming to an agreement by the result of facts. in order to win they will circumvent your fact or point and just keep attacking. at that stage its an argument and not a debate.
most often people argue from emotion rather than logic and fact. once someone is invested in a view point there is little to be done to change it. on line debate/ argument actually reinforces their belief , they double down on their view.
The Backfire Effect: Why Facts Don't Win Arguments

 

[Kababayan]

I haven't read all of the responses closely, so I apologize if I am repeating something that has already been said. Full disclosure, I have been a striker my entire martial arts tenure, so I am speaking strictly from a striker's perspective. I have about a year of BJJ (Gracie and 10th Planet), which puts me in the category of "not an expert" but "can outgrapple my friends". Here are my humble thoughts:

- The Gracies, and anyone who trains as much as they do, are the elite of the elite. Most "twice a week" martial artists are going to be very limited in a ring with someone who trains professionally. There is a huge gap between professionally trained athlete and the "twice a week" martial artist. I was a very successful sport karate athlete in the early 90's (living on my prior glory), and while I'm not suggesting I belong in the same category a professional athlete, most of my competitors were "twice a week martial arts guys". It was easy to see the competitors who trained hours a day because there is a big gap between the two. My point is, arguments tend to be based on the examples of the elite. To say the "Gracies proved that striking is defenseless against grappling" is like saying that "Mike Tyson proved that blocks are defenseless against punching" because he just powers through the blocks. I don't know if my analogy fits, but the Gracies, and any other high-level elite grapplers, are so far above the person that trains an hour at a time, twice a week. It would be the same for high-level elite strikers; they are in a much higher class than the twice a week jiu jitsu guy. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't one of the first Gracie losses ever delivered from a high roundhouse knockout in 11 seconds in Japan? I may be wrong about that. but I remember seeing the fight. Point being I would never grapple @gpseymour or @Tony Dismukes because they would just tie me in a knot, but they are also elite grapplers. Their success does not mean that my 35 years of striking, footwork, aggression, scenario training, and technique would not be effective if a random attacker ever tried to take me down.

- Here are a few observations from my bjj class(es). The students at my latest bjj school (as well as my previous bjj school) always start from their backs and never from a standing position. That's an observation I've heard from many bjj students at various schools. As a striker, this is great for me because the bjj students in my classes don't feel comfortable standing up, and never really practice takedowns. Even the Blue Belt and above grapplers don't feel very comfortable starting from a standing position. We do some starting from standing, but it is never drilled consistently. Therefore, it is very easy for me to counter their takedowns (when we ever do them) by using footwork and timing. I wouldn't imagine a drunk telling me he was going to kick my ***, and then sitting down expecting me to engage him in a grappling contest. When the students do start from stand-up, they do it from a grappler's version of stand-up (hunched over trying to grab each other's hands.) During one class I was drilling sprawling with the instructor. Out of habit I punched him in the face (gloves on) as the began to shoot in. He stopped, was clearly shaken, and I apologized profusely. I'm not saying that a defensive job is the perfect counter to a takedown from a Gracie Black Belt, but at that moment he was so focused on shooting in, and expecting me to sprawl, that he didn't expect me to react with a defensive jab (I swear I wasn't planning on doing it...just reaction). It broke his pattern of thinking (OODA Loop) just long enough for me have time to run away if it were an attack scenario.

- When people think of "striking" most only think about boxing. Striking doesn't only include punches. During one grappling class I accidently hit my partner in the groin trying to get out of something (I forgot what it was...maybe guard). It was a very effective way of stopping whatever he was doing. Granted we were both bjj beginners but it does show that groin strikes can still be effective against a grappler. I also accidently (I swear) poked my partner in the eye while going for a choke. The eye poke caused him to stop working and allowed me to apply the choke (although if it were an attack scenario it would have given me an oppurtunity to get up and run away.) Dirty fighting (biting, spitting, headbutts, eye gouges, groin strikes) are talked about but never really trained for (or against.) Bjj always talks about creating those small openings of opportunity, dirty fighting can create those. Now that I reflect on these stories, I realize that I may be the world's worst grappling partner to have.

I understand that my quick stories only apply to my specific situations at that specific time, but I tell them to show that striking is not defenseless against grappling. A better statement may be that "a striker will have a difficult time against an elite high-performing grappler"...but it could also be argued that a "twice a week" grappler would have a difficult time against a high-performing striker. I think my responses went off topic at times. My apologies if this reply became all about me, and is really long, but I can only speak with authenticity from situations that I have been in.

 

[Flying Crane]

I haven't read all of the responses closely, so I apologize if I am repeating something that has already been said. Full disclosure, I have been a striker my entire martial arts tenure, so I am speaking strictly from a striker's perspective. I have about a year of BJJ (Gracie and 10th Planet), which puts me in the category of "not an expert" but "can outgrapple my friends". Here are my humble thoughts:

- The Gracies, and anyone who trains as much as they do, are the elite of the elite. Most "twice a week" martial artists are going to be very limited in a ring with someone who trains professionally. There is a huge gap between professionally trained athlete and the "twice a week" martial artist. I was a very successful sport karate athlete in the early 90's (living on my prior glory), and while I'm not suggesting I belong in the same category a professional athlete, most of my competitors were "twice a week martial arts guys". It was easy to see the competitors who trained hours a day because there is a big gap between the two. My point is, arguments tend to be based on the examples of the elite. To say the "Gracies proved that striking is defenseless against grappling" is like saying that "Mike Tyson proved that blocks are defenseless against punching" because he just powers through the blocks. I don't know if my analogy fits, but the Gracies, and any other high-level elite grapplers, are so far above the person that trains an hour at a time, twice a week. It would be the same for high-level elite strikers; they are in a much higher class than the twice a week jiu jitsu guy. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't one of the first Gracie losses ever delivered from a high roundhouse knockout in 11 seconds in Japan? I may be wrong about that. but I remember seeing the fight. Point being I would never grapple @gpseymour or @Tony Dismukes because they would just tie me in a knot, but they are also elite grapplers. Their success does not mean that my 35 years of striking, footwork, aggression, scenario training, and technique would not be effective if a random attacker ever tried to take me down.

- Here are a few observations from my bjj class(es). The students at my latest bjj school (as well as my previous bjj school) always start from their backs and never from a standing position. That's an observation I've heard from many bjj students at various schools. As a striker, this is great for me because the bjj students in my classes don't feel comfortable standing up, and never really practice takedowns. Even the Blue Belt and above grapplers don't feel very comfortable starting from a standing position. We do some starting from standing, but it is never drilled consistently. Therefore, it is very easy for me to counter their takedowns (when we ever do them) by using footwork and timing. I wouldn't imagine a drunk telling me he was going to kick my ***, and then sitting down expecting me to engage him in a grappling contest. When the students do start from stand-up, they do it from a grappler's version of stand-up (hunched over trying to grab each other's hands.) During one class I was drilling sprawling with the instructor. Out of habit I punched him in the face (gloves on) as the began to shoot in. He stopped, was clearly shaken, and I apologized profusely. I'm not saying that a defensive job is the perfect counter to a takedown from a Gracie Black Belt, but at that moment he was so focused on shooting in, and expecting me to sprawl, that he didn't expect me to react with a defensive jab (I swear I wasn't planning on doing it...just reaction). It broke his pattern of thinking (OODA Loop) just long enough for me have time to run away if it were an attack scenario.

- When people think of "striking" most only think about boxing. Striking doesn't only include punches. During one grappling class I accidently hit my partner in the groin trying to get out of something (I forgot what it was...maybe guard). It was a very effective way of stopping whatever he was doing. Granted we were both bjj beginners but it does show that groin strikes can still be effective against a grappler. I also accidently (I swear) poked my partner in the eye while going for a choke. The eye poke caused him to stop working and allowed me to apply the choke (although if it were an attack scenario it would have given me an oppurtunity to get up and run away.) Dirty fighting (biting, spitting, headbutts, eye gouges, groin strikes) are talked about but never really trained for (or against.) Bjj always talks about creating those small openings of opportunity, dirty fighting can create those. Now that I reflect on these stories, I realize that I may be the world's worst grappling partner to have.

I understand that my quick stories only apply to my specific situations at that specific time, but I tell them to show that striking is not defenseless against grappling. A better statement may be that "a striker will have a difficult time against an elite high-performing grappler"...but it could also be argued that a "twice a week" grappler would have a difficult time against a high-performing striker. I think my responses went off topic at times. My apologies if this reply became all about me, and is really long, but I can only speak with authenticity from situations that I have been in.

I absolutely agree with you, and you have explained it very clearly. Excellent post, sir.

 

[Kababayan]

I absolutely agree with you, and you have explained it very clearly. Excellent post, sir.

Thank you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I haven't read all of the responses closely, so I apologize if I am repeating something that has already been said. Full disclosure, I have been a striker my entire martial arts tenure, so I am speaking strictly from a striker's perspective. I have about a year of BJJ (Gracie and 10th Planet), which puts me in the category of "not an expert" but "can outgrapple my friends". Here are my humble thoughts:

- The Gracies, and anyone who trains as much as they do, are the elite of the elite. Most "twice a week" martial artists are going to be very limited in a ring with someone who trains professionally. There is a huge gap between professionally trained athlete and the "twice a week" martial artist. I was a very successful sport karate athlete in the early 90's (living on my prior glory), and while I'm not suggesting I belong in the same category a professional athlete, most of my competitors were "twice a week martial arts guys". It was easy to see the competitors who trained hours a day because there is a big gap between the two. My point is, arguments tend to be based on the examples of the elite. To say the "Gracies proved that striking is defenseless against grappling" is like saying that "Mike Tyson proved that blocks are defenseless against punching" because he just powers through the blocks. I don't know if my analogy fits, but the Gracies, and any other high-level elite grapplers, are so far above the person that trains an hour at a time, twice a week. It would be the same for high-level elite strikers; they are in a much higher class than the twice a week jiu jitsu guy. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't one of the first Gracie losses ever delivered from a high roundhouse knockout in 11 seconds in Japan? I may be wrong about that. but I remember seeing the fight. Point being I would never grapple @gpseymour or @Tony Dismukes because they would just tie me in a knot, but they are also elite grapplers. Their success does not mean that my 35 years of striking, footwork, aggression, scenario training, and technique would not be effective if a random attacker ever tried to take me down.

- Here are a few observations from my bjj class(es). The students at my latest bjj school (as well as my previous bjj school) always start from their backs and never from a standing position. That's an observation I've heard from many bjj students at various schools. As a striker, this is great for me because the bjj students in my classes don't feel comfortable standing up, and never really practice takedowns. Even the Blue Belt and above grapplers don't feel very comfortable starting from a standing position. We do some starting from standing, but it is never drilled consistently. Therefore, it is very easy for me to counter their takedowns (when we ever do them) by using footwork and timing. I wouldn't imagine a drunk telling me he was going to kick my ***, and then sitting down expecting me to engage him in a grappling contest. When the students do start from stand-up, they do it from a grappler's version of stand-up (hunched over trying to grab each other's hands.) During one class I was drilling sprawling with the instructor. Out of habit I punched him in the face (gloves on) as the began to shoot in. He stopped, was clearly shaken, and I apologized profusely. I'm not saying that a defensive job is the perfect counter to a takedown from a Gracie Black Belt, but at that moment he was so focused on shooting in, and expecting me to sprawl, that he didn't expect me to react with a defensive jab (I swear I wasn't planning on doing it...just reaction). It broke his pattern of thinking (OODA Loop) just long enough for me have time to run away if it were an attack scenario.

- When people think of "striking" most only think about boxing. Striking doesn't only include punches. During one grappling class I accidently hit my partner in the groin trying to get out of something (I forgot what it was...maybe guard). It was a very effective way of stopping whatever he was doing. Granted we were both bjj beginners but it does show that groin strikes can still be effective against a grappler. I also accidently (I swear) poked my partner in the eye while going for a choke. The eye poke caused him to stop working and allowed me to apply the choke (although if it were an attack scenario it would have given me an oppurtunity to get up and run away.) Dirty fighting (biting, spitting, headbutts, eye gouges, groin strikes) are talked about but never really trained for (or against.) Bjj always talks about creating those small openings of opportunity, dirty fighting can create those. Now that I reflect on these stories, I realize that I may be the world's worst grappling partner to have.

I understand that my quick stories only apply to my specific situations at that specific time, but I tell them to show that striking is not defenseless against grappling. A better statement may be that "a striker will have a difficult time against an elite high-performing grappler"...but it could also be argued that a "twice a week" grappler would have a difficult time against a high-performing striker. I think my responses went off topic at times. My apologies if this reply became all about me, and is really long, but I can only speak with authenticity from situations that I have been in.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I wouldn’t lay claim to the classification of “elite” grappler. I’m a hobbyist, though I’ve been at the high end of that level of commitment for years at a time. I’m good - a decent technician and reasonable athlete - but it’s not too hard to find better grapplers. If Tony gets me on the ground, I’m way outta my league (I probably stand a chance if we’re still standing).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah, I've never gotten the striking-vs-grappling arguments.

I'm a Sanda coach. I teach both the striking art and the wrestling art (I don't use the term "grappling" because my ground game knowledge is limited). When one of my wrestler students (from Michigan state) who tried to test his skill in local MMA gym and sparred against boxers, it made me think,

- Is it possible for someone who has 0 striking art training to be able to deal with a boxer?
- If one gives up 100% striking intention, what kind of strategy will he use?
- What's the most important concern when one fights against a boxer?
- What should be the 1st thing that he will need to train?
- ...

Since then, I was very interested in "striking-vs-grappling" discussion. I have some ideas but it's still in the testing stage. I hope one day I can write a book about "anti-striking".

 

[jobo]

so there's no way to defend against a bear hug?

If course there is, if they beaR hUg t you with your arms free, Poke them in the eye, if your arms are by your side grab their bits and squeeze, you can generally get them with a knee, or if that lot fails lift your feet of the ground nd see how long they can support your body weight, you can usually kick up with some momentum And a twist,pushing them backwards

 

[Buka]

debate is my favorite past time. however there is debate and there is argument. good debate requires both parties to present their view with honesty and in good faith
Intellectually-honest and intellectually-dishonest debate tactics

often people will ignore your facts and are more interested in winning rather than coming to the table in good faith and being open to the possibility of coming to an agreement by the result of facts. in order to win they will circumvent your fact or point and just keep attacking. at that stage its an argument and not a debate.
most often people argue from emotion rather than logic and fact. once someone is invested in a view point there is little to be done to change it. on line debate/ argument actually reinforces their belief , they double down on their view.
The Backfire Effect: Why Facts Don't Win Arguments

You got me to thinking. The people you describe probably aren't any good at de-escalating situations either. At the very least, not as good as they think they are.

 

[Buka]

I haven't read all of the responses closely, so I apologize if I am repeating something that has already been said. Full disclosure, I have been a striker my entire martial arts tenure, so I am speaking strictly from a striker's perspective. I have about a year of BJJ (Gracie and 10th Planet), which puts me in the category of "not an expert" but "can outgrapple my friends". Here are my humble thoughts:

- The Gracies, and anyone who trains as much as they do, are the elite of the elite. Most "twice a week" martial artists are going to be very limited in a ring with someone who trains professionally. There is a huge gap between professionally trained athlete and the "twice a week" martial artist. I was a very successful sport karate athlete in the early 90's (living on my prior glory), and while I'm not suggesting I belong in the same category a professional athlete, most of my competitors were "twice a week martial arts guys". It was easy to see the competitors who trained hours a day because there is a big gap between the two. My point is, arguments tend to be based on the examples of the elite. To say the "Gracies proved that striking is defenseless against grappling" is like saying that "Mike Tyson proved that blocks are defenseless against punching" because he just powers through the blocks. I don't know if my analogy fits, but the Gracies, and any other high-level elite grapplers, are so far above the person that trains an hour at a time, twice a week. It would be the same for high-level elite strikers; they are in a much higher class than the twice a week jiu jitsu guy. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't one of the first Gracie losses ever delivered from a high roundhouse knockout in 11 seconds in Japan? I may be wrong about that. but I remember seeing the fight. Point being I would never grapple @gpseymour or @Tony Dismukes because they would just tie me in a knot, but they are also elite grapplers. Their success does not mean that my 35 years of striking, footwork, aggression, scenario training, and technique would not be effective if a random attacker ever tried to take me down.

- Here are a few observations from my bjj class(es). The students at my latest bjj school (as well as my previous bjj school) always start from their backs and never from a standing position. That's an observation I've heard from many bjj students at various schools. As a striker, this is great for me because the bjj students in my classes don't feel comfortable standing up, and never really practice takedowns. Even the Blue Belt and above grapplers don't feel very comfortable starting from a standing position. We do some starting from standing, but it is never drilled consistently. Therefore, it is very easy for me to counter their takedowns (when we ever do them) by using footwork and timing. I wouldn't imagine a drunk telling me he was going to kick my ***, and then sitting down expecting me to engage him in a grappling contest. When the students do start from stand-up, they do it from a grappler's version of stand-up (hunched over trying to grab each other's hands.) During one class I was drilling sprawling with the instructor. Out of habit I punched him in the face (gloves on) as the began to shoot in. He stopped, was clearly shaken, and I apologized profusely. I'm not saying that a defensive job is the perfect counter to a takedown from a Gracie Black Belt, but at that moment he was so focused on shooting in, and expecting me to sprawl, that he didn't expect me to react with a defensive jab (I swear I wasn't planning on doing it...just reaction). It broke his pattern of thinking (OODA Loop) just long enough for me have time to run away if it were an attack scenario.

- When people think of "striking" most only think about boxing. Striking doesn't only include punches. During one grappling class I accidently hit my partner in the groin trying to get out of something (I forgot what it was...maybe guard). It was a very effective way of stopping whatever he was doing. Granted we were both bjj beginners but it does show that groin strikes can still be effective against a grappler. I also accidently (I swear) poked my partner in the eye while going for a choke. The eye poke caused him to stop working and allowed me to apply the choke (although if it were an attack scenario it would have given me an oppurtunity to get up and run away.) Dirty fighting (biting, spitting, headbutts, eye gouges, groin strikes) are talked about but never really trained for (or against.) Bjj always talks about creating those small openings of opportunity, dirty fighting can create those. Now that I reflect on these stories, I realize that I may be the world's worst grappling partner to have.

I understand that my quick stories only apply to my specific situations at that specific time, but I tell them to show that striking is not defenseless against grappling. A better statement may be that "a striker will have a difficult time against an elite high-performing grappler"...but it could also be argued that a "twice a week" grappler would have a difficult time against a high-performing striker. I think my responses went off topic at times. My apologies if this reply became all about me, and is really long, but I can only speak with authenticity from situations that I have been in.

I like that post so much if you P.M me your mailing address I'll send you some complimentary Kona coffee that you forgot to get from your supplier. Real Kona, no blend stuff.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

Dirty fighting (biting, spitting, headbutts, eye gouges, groin strikes) are talked about but never really trained for (or against.)

yeah once i was on top of a guy trying to put a kimura on him and he accidentally kneed me in the groin. i had to sit on the couch for five minutes

 

[drop bear]

I understand that my quick stories only apply to my specific situations at that specific time, but I tell them to show that striking is not defenseless against grappling. A better statement may be that "a striker will have a difficult time against an elite high-performing grappler"...but it could also be argued that a "twice a week" grappler would have a difficult time against a high-performing striker. I think my responses went off topic

I think you will find when you are both fighting for sheep stations you milage might vary. If I have been polaxed comming in the last thing I want to do is loose that takedown. Because I can recover better if I am sitting on you.

 

[drop bear]

yeah once i was on top of a guy trying to put a kimura on him and he accidentally kneed me in the groin. i had to sit on the couch for five minutes

Way back in the day I was kneed in the groin and it gave the other guy about a split second. Which he used to bounce my head against a brick wall. And that was about it.

This rolling around nonsense is a choice.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

This rolling around nonsense is a choice

agreed... i mean there are people that love it and more power them... i used to feel like i had to do BJJ to be a well balanced martial artist then i realized unless i want to be an MMA fighter it ok not to do it