A serious question to adept martial artists about physical fitness...

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Zombocalypse, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. Finlay

    Finlay Green Belt

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    Have to say that is one of the nicest exercises I have seen in a long time
     
  2. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

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    Dont forget time. As long as you overuse any ability in an imature way you will never actually get it. Some things come with age.
     
  3. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Increase Your Fast-Twitch Potential With Isometrics

    An article that cites a sports science journal about using isometrics over plyometrics to increase speed.

    You also DO build fast twitch muscles and get faster, because the muscle recruit at a faster rate as a couple other people pointed out by lifting very heavy weights (relative to the individual) as quickly as you can, which when the weight is heavy will still be a relatively slow movement.
     
  4. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I had to look up what a Smith machine was. I've used them, but never knew what they were called.

    Yes, I found it odd the first time. Or anytime I changed the weight and started another set. Great machine for when you're tuckered out but still want to squat.
     
  5. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Or great for rolling a bench in and bench pressing when you don’t have a spotter. Or your spotter can’t possibly lift the amount of weight you’re lifting off of you. The only downside is it’s straight up and down motion vs the natural arching motion you’d follow with a barbell or dumbbells.

    The first time I did the plyo benchpress (throwing it in the air) on a smith machine, I had about 175 lbs on it. All I could think was “God I hope this machine works right!!!”
     
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  6. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Never once thought of it for benching when not having a spotter. That's a real good tip.

    Yeah, the first time letting it go on a plyo bench is a little bit of an uh oh moment. :)
     
  7. Finlay

    Finlay Green Belt

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    Yes exactly this. Heavy weights will increase speed. If you think if speed as explosiveness, then going from relaxed to high tension quickly will help this.

    Lifting heavy weights quickly teaches exactly that.
     
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  8. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    the very first paragraph in that says...... Isometrics are a useful addition to speed training. not that isometrics ARE the speed training. Just that they develop the fast twitch fibres, you still need to practise moving fast!!!!!.

    the case that they are kinder to the body is somewhat debatable, isometrics put a massive strain on you, particularly your heart and cns, which is one of the reasons they ar so effective at stimulating muscle development, but they are of course lacking in the eccentric movement, and full range of movement, so are ultimately lacking in development potential.

    I'm not aware of any sports that require fast movement, which is most of them, where they don't bother to train moving fast, are you?
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  9. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Ummm, not sure where you are pulling that out of. That had nothing to do with my post. People were disagreeing with the fact that heavy lifts will increase speed and fast twitch muscles due to the slow nature of the lift (can't do both heavy and fast at the same time). The first sentence of my post talked about isometrics in relation to ploymetrics (no movement at all, very similar to a max lift and ploymetrics, a very fast movement).

    Saying you need to "practice moving fast" doesn't mean anything at all in a training strategy if you are only talking about speed training. What does that mean? What training protocol are you employing? How do you quantify that to show improvement? Which AGAIN is THE WHOLE POINT of this thread. Why is there so many opinions about "proper training" when it comes to martial arts and physical fitness. There are different ways to do it and many of those ways have no research backing, only anecdotal evidence that it is effective (punching with light weights actually increases punching speed or running lots of miles conditions you for boxing rounds, etc. etc.)
     
  10. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    I'm disagreeing with your interpretation that article and to some extent the article its self.

    no movement at all is NOT similar to heavy slow movement, not similar at all, as one has movement and one has NONE. They couldnt actually be more different
     
  11. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    On the surface you are correct. Once again, nitpicking instead of looking at the two on a complete physiological basis.
    Yep, on the surface not looking at anything happening neurologically and physiologically you are quite right. You again are missing key points in an effort just to disagree.

    So, in an isometric you can activate a very large number of muscle fibers to get stronger. The object doesn't move. In a very heavy lift (1-3 reps max) the lift activates a very large number of muscle fibers to get stronger. The difference is that the lift will get you stronger in the complete range of motion of the lift, whereas the isometric only increases strength in the position held. That was my comparision, from a "body" perspective the muscle is being almost completely activated to get stronger, they are very similar in that manner.
     
  12. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    that's not how isometrics work and why lifting heavy and doing isometrics are not inter changeable, though both have their place in a training program.
    iso work mostly through over loading the nervous system and metabolic stress, lifting through damaging the muscle particularly on the eccentric portion.

    Iso can make you very strong but only in a limited range of motion.

    perhaps you would care to explain how being stronger in a limited range makes you faster.?

    that article made no mention of heavy lifting, only you have decided that they are the same as iso.

    nor did it say that other speed training wasn't required, you have just assumed that to be so.

    what it did suggest is that iso gives the same advantages at pylo ,, which may or may not be true,, but then pylo only uses a very limited range of motion as well, ???
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  13. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    I've argued upteen times on here that building a strengh base is a pre requirement of building an athletic base, but they are not the exact same thing.

    at a simple level there is no doubt that lifting( say building up) to 300 lbs means you can lift 100 lbs quicker than you did when you could only lift 100 lbs. In that sense you are now faster than you were at the 100 lbs level

    . What's less sure is if that has made any measurable differeranc to the speed you can move an unweighted arm, in say a punch, as throwing a punch has a high level of motor skill in it . It need far more development of th cns, than just being stronger than you were.

    it may well have given you the capacity to punch faster, if you then work on the motor skill element, but to suggest that the strengh increase alone has made much difference is just speculation on your part.

    as evidence of that short fall, all sports that have a speed eliment in them, spend a great deal of time in training speed elements as well as strengh. soccer players build up their leg muscles. AND run fast. They don't just do heavily weight squats and say " rights that enough for me to out sprint the full back over 20 yards. Because it isnt
     
  14. Finlay

    Finlay Green Belt

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    Sorry, but I never said that lift heavy is all you need

    You can build explosiveness with heavy lifting but then it need to be translated into the required skill, this is the same for all resistance training to aid sports. You build the attributes and then refine then into skill

    Maybe I misread one of the posts above but I believe that it was stated that heavy weights are no good for building speed.

    This point is incorrect on my opinion and experience
     
  15. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    You obviously did NOT read the article I just posted. I am done trying to cite research on how the body actually works when all you want to do is argue your point contrary to what the science says. You are picking and choosing PIECES of an argument and setting up strawman arguments with people that aren't even being made.
     
  16. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    your just making things up. You said, lifting heavy weight made you fast, you now changed that to explosive, " explosive" is fast movement . You are now saying that fast movement needs skill development. Ergo lifting heavy weights doesn't make you explosive. ? Perhaps you can clarify your position?
     
  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    you haven't sited anyresearch,you link to an article that sited a very small quote out of some research and then concluded that the artical is its,self research.
    and then miss understood it.????
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  18. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Once again did NOT read the 2nd article I posted. I never said that the article was the research. I always stated that the article cited the research giving a person a summary of the research and a place to look at the research oneself if they chose to.

    In the 2nd article, it is a textbook and here is a summary of the people who put it together. If you had taken the time to read the quote I posted, you would see that it answered your disagreements.
    If you can find better stuff put together about lifting, please let me know because up until this point you repeatedly keep arguing with people and have not ONCE put anything up as far as articles that cite research or the research itself to support your opinion. You keep on misquoting people or picking out a small statements and twisting it.

    Since you seem unable to read through the posts or put together any type of legitimate rebuttal other than your opinion in regards to the original topic. I am not going to keep wasting my time.
     
  19. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    ????? Your second link is,an ADD to buy a book, how do you a) expect to support your point and b) me to read it. When there is no actual information about anything.

    in the bit you have selectively quoted, it says nothing about isometrics and even less about increasing un weighted speed. What do you think it says about these topics?
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  20. Finlay

    Finlay Green Belt

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    Sorry but that is not what is said.

    In a previous post I said we could think of speed as explosiveness

    I then said heavy lifting, deadlifting for example builds explosiveness. Referring to the attribute

    Then in a follow up post, while trying to explain my position. I said that the attribute built from heavy lifting needs to be applied to a skill.

    I don' think I even said that all you need to punch fast is heavy lifting. My apologies if it read like that
     

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