a saying about teaching the art

thekuntawman

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"an expert is a man who is in his fighting career, and a master is a teacher who is fighting career is over."

what does this mean? you cannot become a teacher until you have been a few years into your fighting career. a fighting career is when you have achieved a "black belters" level in the martial art (4-5 years) and you begin to spar against other experts for three reasons, reputation, learning/fighting experience, and testing your ideas about fighting. so what, if its not the street or its sport. that is the talk of cowards. you are trying your skills against a moving man who is trying to kick your ***, like you are trying to do to him. the fighting career is when you put all that talk about developing basics and "attributes" in your pocket and prove to others and yourself that your talk can walk. say what you want about tournaments, wekaf, etc. these guys know what a full speed hit looks like, and they have a better chance to counter it than someone who spent all day doing sinawali. fighting experience, like i said gives the so called "expert" three things:
1. a reputation people can count on. so what you wrote books. so what you are well known. so what you have a lot of friends who call you the "real deal". your peers in the philippine martial arts want to know if you can fight. and so do your students. soon or later, one of them will try you out, even in a friendly way, and there is no worser reputation than the old student who says he whipped you up once. if your going to be a teacher, your reputation is your business card.
2. the true "advance level training". screw the drills and neat ways to disarm a stick. advance martial arts is, making your opponent mad because he cant hit you, and finding new ways to cause pain to him. advance learning is applying the technique. and you cant learn that in a video or seminar. look around your classroom. if you got beginners in class with you, and they are learning and practicing the same thing you are, your not in the advance class. advance training is where the big boys train. my own grandfather told me at this level he cant teach me more, my teachers are my opponents and my memory of the matches.
3. so you came up with your own style? its so popular here in the US to copy off the old manong and make your own style, since they did it to, (you know its not the same) but you forgot one thing. i dont know what culture it came from where you make your own style by writing down a new curriculum of all the neat stuff you got on those seminars, but its not how the FMA man does it. for your own style to have its own life, you need opponents you used it on. am i am not talking about friends and companion. dan inosanto is not the man to ask about bruce lees jeet kune do, wong jak man is.

your fighting career is going to last until you are late 40s or 50s. people who are on the east coast know people like billy bryant and furman marshall. they still fight in tournaments at 48 and 49 years old. i remember billy got mad at eberhard welch in 1992 or 93 because he made billy fight in the seniors. i am glad in a way, because billy would have beaten me in the young mens division. by the way, at the grandchampion matchs, he broke the nose of marty kokavas, the lightweight who beat me. marty finished the fight, and beat billy to win the money. only a true fighter can fight with a broken nose. if you want to be a master fighter, you keep fighting. but if you want to be a master teacher, you teach while you learn and develop yourself. when your fighting career is over, that is when you can really call yourself a "master of the art". notice i say CALL YOURSELF, not earn a paper. when your fighting career is over, you really have learned all you can learn from your own experiences of the fighting martial arts.

oh yeah, another saying,
"a master of the martial arts is promoted by his community." you earn the respect of a senior teacher from people, not from a organization. we are not japanese martial arts.
 
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thekuntawman

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i wrote this because people dont understand what the difference between an expert and a teacher. just because you know the martial art, or you are a black belter, does not make you qualified to teach.

there is more to the martial art than, do you just know techniques or not. like when a certain expert is called "excellent technician". HUH??? does that mean he knows a lot of techniques, or does he do his techniques well? the teacher needs wisdom, not just knowledge. you can read books and get knowledge. as a teacher of the martial arts, you are teaching people how to preserved his life! that is no position for somebody who is guessing or speaking in theory. the teacher, then, should have "been there, done that". he has to take some *** whippings so he can help the student how do deal with being beaten, and how to stay alive through it. he needs to understand the many different kinds of fighters, and sizes and skills of fighters, and REAL KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE, not "THEORY" OR GUESSING!

if you want to qualify your students, separate experts/black belt fighters from TEACHERS. the person who wants to be a teacher needs to be a wise and experienced man, not a teacher of movement. thats what we have video and seminars for.

teachers need more time with their teachers. they need lots of conversations to pick his own teachers brain and experience. he needs one to one time, over years of taking his experience back to his teacher. now, how can you give a test on this, or draw a curriculum for that?

about a year ago i read a posting where somebody writes, okay i just got my first degree black belt this weekend. anybody who wants classes in sucha such town, send me an email......HUH????
 
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Dave Fulton

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I agree with your post and I am amused by your style of communication as always. I mean that as a compliment, by the way. I like that you don't do buy into the whole "politically correct" thing and say what you think in spite of the inevitable back lash.

Eberhard Welch, that's a name that I haven't heard in a while. By the way, where is Billy Bryant located? I have heard some good things about him and that he was in the Washington, DC area at some point, but nothing definite. Also, as I recall your brother (I think?) was going to open a school in the DC area, but it was put on hold. Has that been resolved?

Also, if you are ever going to be in the DC area, we should try to get together.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton
 
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thekuntawman

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hi dave,

i really cant say where billy is, and i havent talk to him since 98. the last time i talked to him, i think he was in a wheelchair because of a car accident.

eberhard welch jr, in case you didnt know was killed a few years back, and his dad has a tournament once a year in college park/hyattsville in his name. i fought in the first two, then i just brought students. he still has a karate school (i think its shorin ryu) near PG plaza in hyattsville, called welch's karate. heres some trivia, that he use to be a sparring partner of don bitanga, who is a teacher of shorin ryu and pekiti tirsia arnis under (i think) bo sayoc.

for my hard head brother, he still teaches the couple students he had for many years, but he is doing home improvments contract work for home depot. he makes good money, and doesnt want to deal with collecting tuition and stuff. if you go to some of the dc tournaments you might see him, they wear red karate gis. if i can ever get home to DC, i want to start a group, then let him take it over, but with these babies coming (i have three now) i can never leave california except for guaranteed money....

thanks dave, i will look you up when i go back to the east coast. did i meet you before, when i was in baltimore?
 

Rich Parsons

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Question to thekuntawman and Moromoro and others :

It sounds like the fighting you, thekuntawman, are discussion is tournament fighting. Do you really call this true figthing? or just Sparring under a given set of rules with a set of Pads or . . . ????

Also, I repeat my question, how am I to get people to truly spar or fight me. Why would they risk it against an unknown?

What if I have already been able to spar my Peers and wish to spar some of my Seniors (* time in the art *)? How do I get them to agree to this?

Would either of you truly agree to play with me, if we were in the same area? (* This is not a challenge it is a question *)


What if a person is exceptional and they can defend themselves quite well? Would it then be ok for a person to settle down and teach and work on their Mastery before being in their late 40's or 50's? Are these Guidelinse or are they Rules or are they Laws?



Still Curious
 
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thekuntawman

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wow you have a good memory. i forgot about that posting.

anyway, i saw something, where i wrote "what i tell my students, theres going to be a time when i am not there with you, and you are going to have to train yourself and fight by yourself. your teacher can only take you so far, the rest of your training will be up to you if you want to go up to that level, or stay a forever student."

well, its funny i said that, because i am not in sacramento, and my students been running the school since febuary. one of them came to visit me a few days ago, to tell me he is moving to texas. i told him to join some schools there, so he will have people to spar with. maybe i will go out there to teach him sometime, or he can visit california. but after 18 months training with us, he fights with black belters all the time, stick and empty hand, so now, he is "on his own", just like the others. if they didnt know it before, now they do, that knowledge wont come in a spoon all the time.

there is really only one way to teach yourself, and its not with a VCR
 
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thekuntawman

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Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Question to thekuntawman and Moromoro and others :

It sounds like the fighting you, thekuntawman, are discussion is tournament fighting. Do you really call this true figthing? or just Sparring under a given set of rules with a set of Pads or . . . ????

Also, I repeat my question, how am I to get people to truly spar or fight me. Why would they risk it against an unknown?

What if I have already been able to spar my Peers and wish to spar some of my Seniors (* time in the art *)? How do I get them to agree to this?

Would either of you truly agree to play with me, if we were in the same area? (* This is not a challenge it is a question *)


What if a person is exceptional and they can defend themselves quite well? Would it then be ok for a person to settle down and teach and work on their Mastery before being in their late 40's or 50's? Are these Guidelinse or are they Rules or are they Laws?



Still Curious

rich there is only one thing that is a true fight, and that is a streetfight that you didnt plan (or with a friend, but you didnt plan it). but you need to get as much of any kind of fighting that you can even if you want to make fun of a tournament. classroom sparring i dont count because you are too comfortable with someone you know, even if they are good. so, yes, i agree, you spar in tournaments, point tournaments, full contact tournaments if you are ready, and with people you know who are outside your own organization. yes its not a life or death fight, but its closer to a real fight then patty cake drills (or "sensitivity" or whatever).

how do you get people you dont know to spar with you? you just invite them. you will meet more fighters in a tournament than just walking in, but dont laugh at the point fighter. many of them do fight with a lot of contact. but as one teacher to another, it is too easy to find other teachers who will workout with you, just ask. before i move my school, my students use to spar with hampton's karate who was next door to us! its uncomfortable for everybody, but its healthy for training the hearts and spirits of young martial arts fighters (all adults, by the way). you can find a nice way to invite them, then when the day comes, its all business, buddy.

sprring your seniors is good, but you need people outside your organization, and best if its strangers.

and yeah you can teach when you are young, i opend my school when i was 23. but you cant just stop because your teaching! i changed my style and strategy almost every year since i opened my school, and i grow better every year. all i am saying is, the BEST time to catch a teacher is when he is getting old. i rather listen to an old man with his own style than a young one. but i also rather learn from a young man who is his own style, if he is still fighting against other people (even in a POINT tournament).

point is fine, if you dont think its the only way to fight. but if you dont do much fighting at all, even light contact, your skills are only theory.
 
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Dave Fulton

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Well, I hope Billy has recovered from his injuries.

As for Eberhard Welch, I used to train at his dojo when he was in Mount Rainier and yes, the style is Shorin-ryu. I was at Eberhard Jr.'s funeral. What a shame that was!

The name Don Bitanga sounds familiar. Is he in the DC area?

I can kind of understand your brother not wanting to deal with the headaches of teaching for money. I do not teach, but I help with running our club (which is very non-commercial), so I kind of have an understanding of the problems involved.

I don't go to tournaments and never really went to them except when I was with Welch's dojo back in 90-92. I guess I might have meet you at a tournament in 90-92, but if I did, then I do not remember it. Did you ever come to Welch's dojo during the 90-92 time frame? If so, then we are almost sure to have meet.

I can relate on the baby front ... I only have two and it's hard enough to set aside time & money for personal things.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton
 

Rich Parsons

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Originally posted by moromoro
hi rich

you have replyed twice to this thread but where is your reply to the term MORO thread?????


thanks

terry


Terry,

Give me time, for I have already replied. Yet I do not reply without thinking about my words. Checking for Spelling and proof reading for conent to avoid a miscommunication.

Just because I am watching one thread, does nto meanI am watching all threads at the same time. :)

Please read the reply their.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=109938#post109938
 

Mark Lynn

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Originally posted by thekuntawman
"an expert is a man who is in his fighting career, and a master is a teacher who is fighting career is over."

what does this mean? you cannot become a teacher until you have been a few years into your fighting career. .........

oh yeah, another saying,
"a master of the martial arts is promoted by his community." you earn the respect of a senior teacher from people, not from a organization. we are not japanese martial arts.

Kuntawman

I read your posts on this thread and for the most part I agree with you. But for discussion I take it you are saying that you must be a fighter to be a good teacher.

Also you question in your 2nd post about an "excellent technican", with the inferance again you can't be a good teacher without being a good fighter.

I disagree on these points. I believe you can be a good, even master level teacher and not be a " good fighter" in the sense that you protrayed.

Through hard training and a good work ethic you can become a master level instructor without fighting. Since you bring up the japanese martial arts are you saying that they are not master level instructors? In Okinawan Karate the master Anko Itosu was known for not engaging in violence.

From "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters" by Shoshin Nagamine
comes the following about Anko Itosu. pg.48 "Avoiding physical violence his entire life, Itosu trained with incredible ferocity and found contentment putting his heart and soul into his makiwara practice." And on pg.49 "Yet in spite of Itosu's diligent makiwara training and polished martial art skills, I know of no episodes of him ever fighting or even having an arguement throughout his entire life"

It was sensei Itosu who helped introduce karate into the schools and had the following karate masters as students;Yabu Kentsu, Funakoshi Gichin, Hanshiro Chomo, Kyan Chotoku, Chibana Chosin, Tokuda Anbun, Oshiro Chojo, Mabuni Kenwa, Gusukuma Shinpan. Many of these individuals went on to start their own schools/systems etc. etc. and were taught by this master who didn't fight. Was this man a good teacher or what?

A couple of years prior to his passing I got to meet GM Leo Giron, at a seminar in Stockton. I was impressed by the level of respect that people held for the man. There was a dinner held after the seminars and other people (not students) were coming up to him and paying their respects (reminded me of the Godfather or the Pope) again was this because he was a great fighter or was it something more that he gave back to his community that people treated him with this type of respect? And yet he was a good and qualified teacher.

In I believe it's one of Mark Wiley's books on Serrada (the 2nd one) he mentions an instructor who I also met at the same seminar (that I met GM Giron) who was trained by GM Cabalas. This instructor has a severe medical condition and yet Angel trained him to help others or teach others even though he couldn't now spar. (And I don't think he could then as well) Is he not qualified to teach? (I don't have the book with me right now or I could give you the name.)

In my years of training I've met alot of famous instructors, the good ones are the ones who know how to teach, how to communicate, how to get the student to do their best and exceed it. Many times the good fighters aren't the best teachers or instructors they are the best fighters period. Are there good teachers who aren't good fighters I believe yes. Are there good teachers who are good fighters, yes. Are there good fighters who aren't good teachers absolutely.

Last I leave you with this, the other night I was talking to another instructor and he was commenting on a school who had a person who acted as a coach for the students who were training for the Olympic TKD program. He told me the guy wasn't even an instructor (nor even a martial artist) but that he was "a hell of a coach for the students". As a coach he was helping/teaching the student to achieve their goals etc. etc.

Again for the most part I agree with your posts, I just thought that it was a very general statement you were putting forth and I thought I'd try and put forth another view.

With respect
 

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Excellent thread! Some great view points given. Boxing is another example where there are some excellent coaches/trainers that have little, if any, ring experience at all.

However, IMO…an instructor MUST be able to demonstrate or has demonstrated his/her skills under "live fire" (so to speak). I believe the experience lends to his credibility, having tested what he teaches to prove himself worthy of the title. Although many individuals have put in the time / years of training (and for some...money) to attain this rank, there is only a small percentage that has actually shed blood, sweat & tears on the streets or in the ring, sparring.

Instructors should always be involved in sparring sessions or “pressure tested” environments with his students and colleagues. If he does not, he either lacks the confidence, skill or has an ego problem. When I say ego, I don’t mean he is worried of hurting someone but of getting hurt.

BTW...if anyone has contact information for Don Bitanga, please e-mail me. I lost contact with his son Steve back in 91' and would like to touch base.

,
 

John J

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>there is only a small percentage that has actually shed blood, sweat & tears on the streets or in the ring, sparring.

Sorry, I should have clarified. Not that I hope any of you have had unfortunate experiences in the street but have actually had to use your martial arts. Therefore, testing or using your skill.

John
 
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thekuntawman

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the arguement that you can be a good teacher or "coach" and you have not fought (or "played the game") before is not a good one for the martial arts. we are not talking about baseball or track. we are talking about a combative art, like the leaders of a military who are planning attacks.

you have to have experience doing what you say you are an expert in. and dont get me wrong i am not talking about streetfighting, all the way. i am talking about fighting with your art. if you never been in a fight (and yes, even matches are good enough) you cannot call yourself a "fighter" or expert of fighting. its like these so-called "blademasters" who sit around daydreaming about what a blade fight is like, they come up with neat drills, teach there ideas for 5 years, now they are "blade fighters".

when you speak of japanese or okinowan karate masters, this is not the same thing. i can be a master of karate with only true knowledge of kata and philosophy if i have been promoted by another master. in the philippine martial arts, we have only fighting technique, and unitl recently, no promotions to the master level.

the arguement comes when you have people who dont want to fight, and they are finding reasons not to do it. i am not talking about going around to bars beating on people. i am talking about having matches with other experts, like how the tennis sisters (venus and serena) have become tennis masters. yes, there dad trained them, but they became masters by having matches with other players. he could not have created a tennis champion 15 years ago with his knowledge then, but he learned by learning from his daughters who are plaing the game. they learn from the mistakes they made, and that is why they are so good now.

but this is not tennis, and when your students loose in their learning, the loss can result in injury or death.

here is another saying for you guys,
a battle is not the place to learn lessons.
 
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thekuntawman

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what i meant to say about the venus sisters, is that their dad was not an expert tennis player, yet he trained them into champions. they became champions, not because of what he taught them, but because they played so many matches, and he studied the way the game is played. so, he learned while they learned.

the martial artist, cannot do this with his students. before he can teach someone to fight (and even to defend his family or his own life) he should already know what he is talking about. somebody's life is depending on the trust the student has for his teacher. how will he know if his teacher knows if the technique will help him? to a teacher who never fought, he doesnt know. and if i use the sports/coach example, the students in the future will get a good martial arts, based on the learning and the mistakes of todays students. this is a dangerous way to become a good teacher.

todays FMA student is doing this with the seminar method of teaching. he goes to seminars, and then trains by himself. the teacher doesnt know if the students will just take the information and absorb it with no testing. speaking of testing, there are almost no one who tests in the seminars using sparring. tournament participation is not required. fighting with conact is not required. so how does the student build his fighting ability?

dog brothers. wekaf tournament. since the teachers today do not make there own students fight, the student decides, i will go to some tournaments to test my fighting and then he learns the philippine martial arts over. next thing you know, you have "new and improve" modern arnis, "new and improve" jkd/kali, "new and improved" whatever. the new fighter takes it up on himself to teach himself how to fight, and he makes these new discoveries on the philippine martial arts, that a real martial arts school could teach him better in the first place.

all that, because some people think you can know how to fight, without fighting.

"fight without fighting" is a line in a bruce lee movie, people.:D
 
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AldonAsher

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I have to agree with the spirit of this thread. There are some aspects to your training you will never really understand or appreciate until you put it to the test. Your system can be really good and your teacher may be topnotch. But the bottom line is, can you make it work?

The more I fight, the more I appreciate what my instructors gave me. There is nothing like full contact to produce moments of clarity.
 

Mark Lynn

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Originally posted by thekuntawman
the arguement that you can be a good teacher or "coach" and you have not fought (or "played the game") before is not a good one for the martial arts. we are not talking about baseball or track. we are talking about a combative art, like the leaders of a military who are planning attacks.


when you speak of japanese or okinowan karate masters, this is not the same thing. i can be a master of karate with only true knowledge of kata and philosophy if i have been promoted by another master. in the philippine martial arts, we have only fighting technique, and unitl recently, no promotions to the master level.

here is another saying for you guys,
a battle is not the place to learn lessons.

kuntawman

First off let me say that I agree pretty much with the majority of what you saying here in your posts. Your examples of the Venus sisters is a valid one and your point taken.

However for the sake of discussion I disagree on the following points.

1) How can you be a master of karate with only true knowledge of kata and philosophy?
a) "..if I have been promoted by another master." Does this hold true for the FMA student as well? What makes the FMA any different from any other martial art when it comes to being promoted. If a master of karate promotes a student, and a master of the FMA promotes a student, than is there a difference between the two.

On the karate thought back when Itosu was training it was a hard life. You had to know how to defend yourself and that was how the art/systems were taught for self defense. After he had advanced in years he then decided to make the system available in a format for the educational system. But this didn't mean he didn't know how to fight, just that he had chosen not to. (this was the point I was trying to make)

I would venture to say that the hard training that the masters of old went through in any form of martial arts is what made them what they are. Whether they sparred alot or not.

2) "We have only fighting technique...." In the past I think that this was so. However the more modern systems have adapted for lack of a better term the japanese approach of systemizing their systems to teach much more than just fighting techniques.
[I AM NOT SAYING THAT JAPANESE SYSTEMS ARE BETTER OR WORSE OR THAT THEY ADD ANYTHING TO THE FMA] The more modern FMA now have rank advancement, systemized teaching structures, it to was changed to be introduced into the school systems, and now have gone to tournament style fighting which is good and bad (in some aspects). So I believe that a majority of the arts /systems primary purpose has changed to make it palitable to the public. (This allows the art to live)

With respect
 
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